Biden denied Communion because of his stance on abortion

[usexpat97]

On THIS FORUM, where if one says they are Christian then as far as CF is concerned they are, and one cannot state otherwise, that stance is very much in-line.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The issue isn't about forcing others to be Christians. The issue is about declaring that our laws and ethics will be Christian in nature. Instead our national law and ethics are of the world and it shows.

This is way off topic, but you have no reason to think all lawmakers wil always be Christians. Therefore, it will never be possible for any laws to be based on Christianity.

 

[Athanasius377]

I do not think defending President Donald Trump is defensible.

He wasn’t my choice first through Hillary. I’m not the only one considered voting down ballot. I was a Rand Paul guy. He was on the ballot and Rand was not. The alternative was not an option. That’s how bad it was and given the current field it’s not likely to change.

 

[GodLovesCats]

He wasn’t my choice first through Hillary. I’m not the only one considered voting down ballot. I was a Rand Paul guy. He was on the ballot and Rand was not. The alternative was not an option. That’s how bad it was and given the current field it’s not likely to change.

There was not write-in option on your ballot?

 

[GACfan]

The issue isn't about forcing others to be Christians. The issue is about declaring that our laws and ethics will be Christian in nature. Instead our national law and ethics are of the world and it shows.

I have to doubt that ethics of a Christian nature is an actual pressing issue because Donald Trump is the President and he was elected by a majority of conservative Christians. I'm not directing my next comment to you personally, but I don't think a Christian who faithfully supports and fervently defends Trump (no matter how immoral he is) has the moral standing to preach about morality and ethics or point a judgmental finger at some liberal politician(s) for immoral behavior and political corruption.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I have to doubt that ethics of a Christian nature is an actual pressing issue because Donald Trump is the President and he was elected by a majority of conservative Christians. I'm not directing my next comment to you personally, but I don't think a Christian who faithfully supports and fervently defends Trump (no matter how immoral he is) has the moral standing to preach about morality and ethics or point a judgmental finger at some liberal politician(s) for immoral behavior and political corruption.

Trump is a symptom of a church that has abandoned Biblical ethics.

 

[Athanasius377]

There was not write-in option on your ballot?

Sure there was. I ah e voted that way. I voted that way in 2004 for Ron Paul. Yet a write in option really wasn’t an option in 2016. I have a hierarchy of importance in how I vote. If you cannot affirm the right to life or confused about the same then then you don’t have any business makimg policy because history has shown you will get it wrong at every point along the spectrum of life. From conception to natural death. The second is the defense of the natural family. Here Trump fails miserably. Hillary is grey, recall she was against homophilliac marriages as President Obama was. The third rung is the defense of the Bill of Rights. Hate speech is free speech. Even the stuff I find to be reprehensible. However if a society does not allow hate speech it does not have free speech. Consider a more theocratic regime is in power and deems your objections to policies against xyz to be hate speech; what is your defense? Free speech exists not up until one gets uncomfortable but well beyond the same. Or freedom of religion. I mean free expression there of not so self styled “safe religion”, rather I mean full throated religious freedom. If you favor one over another that’s not freedom of religion.

I could go one but my point is given this hierarchy I hope you see the conundrum many Christians like myself found ourselves in 2016. We can still dislike trump yet also be against the current Democratic ethos, and to be fair Republican as well.

sorry for the long post. Just a few things I wanted make clear.

 

[NW82]

There are only two passages in the Bible which actually touch on the abortion issue and neither one condemns it.

Exodus 20:13
Psalms 139:13 - 127:16
Isaiah 49:1
Exodus 21:22-25
Jeremiah 1:5
Luke 1:41
Proverbs 6:16-19
Ecclesiastes 11:5
Psalms 22:10
Psalms 106:38-39

 

[NW82]

The Bible does not say supporting abortion makes anyone ineligible for communion, which is the topic.

Being against God makes on ineligible for communion.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The hate speech issue was right here, just 10-15 minutes away from me at the UF campus. I get it: there is a perception free speech should be thrown out the window when safey is at risk. But just hearing a bad guy talk is not dangerous - the reactions to it are. It is a situation where people have to learn self control. Now if the white nationaiist had a gun with him and threatened to repeat his actions in Charlottesville (he was the leader of the that group at the Robert Lee statue event), there would be a problem. But all he did here was talk.

 

[JackRT]

Exodus 20:13
Psalms 139:13 - 127:16
Isaiah 49:1
Exodus 21:22-25
Jeremiah 1:5
Luke 1:41
Proverbs 6:16-19
Ecclesiastes 11:5
Psalms 22:10
Psalms 106:38-39

Well, you did find one of them.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Being against God makes one ineligible for communion.

That would make everyone in the world ineligible for Communion because nobody is free of sin. So Biden, regardless of his aboriton views, is just as eligible as you are to take Communion.

Do you use your own definition of "against God" instead of the Biblical one?

 

[GingerBeer]

He wasn’t my choice first through Hillary. I’m not the only one considered voting down ballot. I was a Rand Paul guy. He was on the ballot and Rand was not. The alternative was not an option. That’s how bad it was and given the current field it’s not likely to change.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton didn't talk lewdly about her life nor boast about lewd conduct, didn't lie publicly with almost every word, isn't twice divorced and thrice married, and might even have made a competent president. But she isn't president and will not likely be president so it doesn't matter. I do not know of any good cause to deny her communion in whatever church she attends.

 

[GingerBeer]

Trump is a symptom of a church that has abandoned Biblical ethics.

Not just a church but many churches and very many Christians.

 

[GingerBeer]

Hate speech is free speech. Even the stuff I find to be reprehensible. However if a society does not allow hate speech it does not have free speech.

In the scriptures some kinds of speech - advocating the worship of false gods for example - was prohibited with death as the penalty. So how can free speech be such a premium article in your thinking when it is not in the scriptures?

 

[zippy2006]

Biden denied communion at South Carolina church over abortion stance, report says
“Holy Communion signifies we are one with God, each other and the Church. Our actions should reflect that. Any public figure who advocates for abortion places himself or herself outside of Church teaching.”

The relevant canon is 915, which canon lawyer Ed Peters elucidates here.

Canon lawyers Ed Peters and Jay Newman concluded that this was the right move by the priest. Even left-leaning America Magazine found no reason to dissent.

 

[HannahT]

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton didn't talk lewdly about her life nor boast about lewd conduct, didn't lie publicly with almost every word, isn't twice divorced and thrice married, and might even have made a competent president. But she isn't president and will not likely be president so it doesn't matter. I do not know of any good cause to deny her communion in whatever church she attends.

You spoke of tribes, and you made your tribe well known.

Trump is no angel, but neither is Clinton. She is an enabler, and someone that feels the need to assassinate characters of others (her husband's other lovers for just one example). She went out of her way to destroy Monica, and many others - yet Monica is whom we remember. She might not be twice divorced, but she did got out of her way to make sure her husband's lovers had the worse of times - and no jobs. Although I realize some find 'grading' sins is the way to go. Maybe your are one of those- I have no idea. She may doesn't have an issue talking lewd about the opposite sex, but others besides that category? They aren't a problem, because lewd is perfectly fine under those circumstances. Lying about others isn't a problem with her either. Sinning on this level maybe okie okie with you - and others - and the sin 'grade' scale but it doesn't happen to be with others. That's just one area of major disagreement. Policy - which this should be about - doesn't seem to matter today. Yet, it should. It effects more than just Christian viewpoints. Clinton doesn't line up so perfectly in that vein either.

So, you see if we just use the sin 'grades'? She would be refused, Trump would also. I guess it depends on the pastor that can't see the human divide. I found the refusing communion mean spirited to Biden myself. Yet, we need to stand by our personal beliefs - which this church did.

Biden has a hard road in this circumstance. All politicians do. He has to live by his faith, but his employment is to represent NOT just those that represent his faith. It's his personal journey, and then of course his behind the scenes life that may not be reported that he will answer too. Is he just waffling on this issue to make the political points? Maybe. I have no idea. I have my viewpoints on this issue, but I don't have to make decisions for all of humanity and the circles that it represents like he does/has. Just like Trump does today. Same with Clinton had she won.

So, if we are going to grade people on their sins? None of them would have been granted communion on the scriptures. Not your gal - not other posters guy, and YES not Biden.

If you wish to grade sins? You aren't looking close enough at her life if we must use the same as this person in Biden's church. None of them are worthy in most. Legalistically speaking.

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

The relevant canon is 915, which canon lawyer Ed Peters elucidates here.

Canon lawyers Ed Peters and Jay Newman concluded that this was the right move by the priest. Even left-leaning America Magazine found no reason to dissent.

The right move? Remember what Jesus said about throwing stones?

It is not okay. There is life in communion.

Imagine you went grocery shopping, and everywhere you went you were denied the right to purchase your groceries because you were deemed unfit to shop there. Being denied everywhere you went to buy food, you would starve to death.

This is not Christlike, it is the exact opposite, in fact. You don't get to decide the worth of others. That is not your call. God, himself, judges the soul. Not you, not me.

 

[zippy2006]

The right move?

Yes, according to the understanding of the Catholic Church it was the "right move."

It is not okay. There is life in communion.

Imagine you went grocery shopping, and everywhere you went you were denied the right to purchase your groceries because you were deemed unfit to shop there. Being denied everywhere you went to buy food, you would starve to death.

This is not Christlike, it is the exact opposite, in fact. You don't get to decide the worth of others. That is not your call. God, himself, judges the soul. Not you, not me.

"Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion" (CIC 915).

This has been a common Christian teaching and practice for two millenia. If you were a Protestant you would have a better excuse of ignorance. Needless to say, receiving the Holy Eucharist is not "going to the grocery store."

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

Yes, according to the understanding of the Catholic Church it was the "right move."



"Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion" (CIC 915).

This has been a common Christian teaching and practice for two millenia. If you were a Protestant you would have a better excuse of ignorance. Needless to say, receiving the Holy Eucharist is not "going to the grocery store."

And how does the priest know the condition of Biden's soul?

Imagine you were denied? Just imagine that feeling of being in church, lining up for communion, and being denied.