Future New World Order One World Government...in the Bible?

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

I believe the approach to the time before Yeshua returns needs to be looked at from His perspective. How bad must sin be in the world before He steps in and puts a stop to it all? Why then?

There are two activities going on simultaneously .. that in which God in Heaven in working on saving souls, and that on earth the devil is working to destroy souls through deception, disease, destruction and delusions.

In this thread the question is.. Is God revealing an end time government that so controls the world that all the world would and has to worship Satan? Is Satan's end game to rule the world? Does he want to be worship as god? Does God reveal it to His children so that they may not be a part of the financial, political, religious force that will rule the world? When you answer these questions, then comes the next questions, who what where when and how.

I am not 100% sure at what you are getting at. You said a lot there. God would only reveal to his children things of importance. For example, "Let he that hath wisdom count the number of the beast." If we are not here, WHO is HE saying this too? Some would say that is there for the currently unsaved Jews. But if you know anything about judaism, very few read the Old Testament for themselves without going through a guru or the Talmudic gurus of the centuries. So if this is written tot he currently unsaved Jews, trust me they are not reading the New Testament. They call the Old Testament the ONLY Testament. This is just one more proof that we will be here and raptured AFTER persecution and tribulation.

When sin in Canaan reached a certain level, that was the only time God gave the land to Israel. When sin reached a certain level in Sodom and Gomorrah and the other 3 cities, that is when judgment came. God is longsuffering not wishing that any should perish but that ALL would come to repentance. We know His will now. Go ye into all t he world. Are we ding that or talking about it? We don't know the trigger that will bring Jesus back for the 1,000 year reign but we need to occupy till He comes.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jesus implied escapism would'nt be easy up to the holocaust of 70AD in which those that heeded the call to flee Judea/Jerusalem would escape........

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.
==============================
Revelation 19
17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered!<4863> into the Supper of the Great God.
18 That ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Zeph 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]

littlepeskylambofJesus,

1. 70 A.D. was prophesied to happen by Jesus. Remember?

2. There are plenty of times that God kept his people from specific times of judgement.
Enoch is a type of the rapture. Genesis 5:21:24.
Methuselah his son’s name meant the deluge or the end is coming.
Noah and the flood will be the days of the tribulation Matthew 24:37-39.
Noah and his family were preserved in the ark and if you notice Israel, the sun clothed woman is preserved in the wilderness and the scattered remnant are preserved through Armageddon Revelation 11:13; 12:14-17.
There are other accounts of God keeping his people from specific times and places, temptations and judgements etc.
Lot and Abraham, Rahab and others.

3. Luke 21 is about a warning to Israel who is out of covenant with God's and this is the possibility of things that happen that deal with their purification process by tribulation.
Israel had a specific blessing and cursing system.
Verse 24; Not only will the Jews fall by the edge of my head sword, be led away captive into all nations, but Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles ( Matthew 5:13, trodden under the feet of men) till the gentiles be come in (Romans 11:25).

4. The great supper of God is Armageddon which God wipes out the armies of the nations not Israel his people Revelation 16:16 and the beast kingdom worshippers too Revelation 16:2.

5. It is not escapism to God as much as it is order.
All Christians go through tribulation but God knows how to keep the godly safe out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement 1 Peter 2:9. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Starting at time 3:12 in the video there is a reference to how Christians in China had been told they would escape tribulation, and a bishop from China said they had failed to warn the people.

.

baberean2,

1. That wasn’t the time of Jacob’s trouble .
God shows accounts of God delivering the godly and from specific judgements such as Noah and the flood, Abraham and Lot and of hers.
It also shows that others such as the apostles would be martyred that didn’t have nothing to do with any kind of pre, mid, or post rapture.

2. The Old Testament saints understood the resurrection of the dead John 11:24; Hebrews 6:2. Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6 shows the resurrection of the dead for they were tribulation saints that died because of not taking the mark etc.
There’s no mention of living being raised. You have to insert 1 Thessalonians 4 and other scriptures to try and prove that.
If all saints were to be raised at the very end then the believing remnant should go up in the clouds and come back to earth which is never stated.

3. The Christians in China being told they would not go through tribulation is different than the specific time of Jacob’s trouble.
To be told they wouldn’t go through tribulation in general is not scriptural for the Bible states if we suffer we shall reign 2 Timothy 2:12. Corrie Ten Boom made a distinction so those people were taught wrong just like some of the teachings you have posted. Jerry Kelso

 

[visionary]

I am not 100% sure at what you are getting at. You said a lot there. God would only reveal to his children things of importance. For example, "Let he that hath wisdom count the number of the beast." If we are not here, WHO is HE saying this too? Some would say that is there for the currently unsaved Jews. But if you know anything about judaism, very few read the Old Testament for themselves without going through a guru or the Talmudic gurus of the centuries. So if this is written tot he currently unsaved Jews, trust me they are not reading the New Testament. They call the Old Testament the ONLY Testament. This is just one more proof that we will be here and raptured AFTER persecution and tribulation.

When sin in Canaan reached a certain level, that was the only time God gave the land to Israel. When sin reached a certain level in Sodom and Gomorrah and the other 3 cities, that is when judgment came. God is longsuffering not wishing that any should perish but that ALL would come to repentance. We know His will now. Go ye into all t he world. Are we ding that or talking about it? We don't know the trigger that will bring Jesus back for the 1,000 year reign but we need to occupy till He comes.

There is some misconception in this quote but not enough to derail a thread over. There are somethings that are good points like the sins reaching a certain level and our loving and long suffering God will say "enough". As to the trigger that brings it all to a closer, I believe there is.
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

There are mile markers or sign posts, if you will, that indicate the time is near. Figure this verse out and you will have the events that trigger "enough".

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
We know that His coming is after the third "wor".

 

[jerry kelso]

A lot of good stuff there Jerry that I can agree with. Some I can't. But you say post-trib rapture is incorrect.
If you do a word study and keep the Book of 1st Thessalonians in its context and exegete it, you will come away with only one belief- either a pre-wrath or post-trib rapture (which may actually end up being the same thing).

I confronted 1,000's of Christians over the last 3 years with one simple question when I had them read 1st Thess. 4:13-18 and not one could answer. It creates an automatic logical fallacy in their hermeneutic. I hit the entire staff of raptureready.com that has hundreds of writers like Dr. Thomas Ice who has went off the deep end trying to use the word apostasy as another harpazo. He's desperate. Other's like Dr. Mark Hitchcock. I put forth my PRE-TRIB RAPTURE CHALLENGE. None can answer it and stay in exegesis yet they continue to teach it knowing something is seriously wrong. This is why they have to hold to cult leader (as Charles Spurgeon put it) John Darby's dispensationalism and not interpret scripture in its context. The word dispensation is only in the Bible four times and it is speaking of only two dispensations- the old and new covenants.

The simple question is this. Maybe you can be the first to debunk it. You can only use scripture passages that are kept within their context. That's how scripture is supposed to be interpreted. "How can I be both "alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPIO; SURVIVE)" and be ALREADY raptured and gone at the same time at the Lord's coming (PAROUSIA; 2ND ADVENT- not harpazo and not klepto which the Holy Spirit could have used if it was a secret rapture)?"

One hint of many I can give you: Who is Paul talking to?
Pre-tribber teachers need to ask the questions who? what? when? where? and why? instead of going to God's Word with presuppositions and changing its meaning.

Actually Thessalonians has other passages that prove a post or pre-wrath rapture, not a pre-trib. Pre-trib takes every passage out of its context and what are the three rules of exegesis? Context. Context. Context.

I would also say that the mass majority of Christians in the western church are lukewarm and being spit out (apostatizing even now) and would be the last ones Jesus would rapture. Only 2% share their faith regularly and some never do. Is Jesus going to reward them with a get out of persecution card for being unfaithful? Look at all the false movements and crazy stuff people are saying-
John McArthur- take the mark of the beast and be able to repent still when scripture says otherwise 7 times. People are going crazy in doctrine. Southern Baptists are going insane with communism/socialism junk and receiving money from George Soros' Open Society's 1,000 sub-organizations. I can go on and on. What did their leader recently say, something about we need to be outspoken for LGBTQ? I can't remember his words but that denomination is gone. I left it two years ago. Come out from among them my people.

The falling away is the "what" in 2nd Thess. that will usher in the antichrist. For the time of the early church, the what was the Roman Empire with the rising of the Popes taking on the name Pontificus Maximus. Our generation is the falling away of the church. Jesus even said "Will I find THE faith on earth when I return". We would he say such a thing? Because there is only a remnant of Jewish and gentile believers that will hold to truth or be faithful UNTO death. There is only ONE body in Christ.

The phrase the time of Jacob's trouble is only in the Bible once also. And who does the Bible teach is the true Jacob? Paul, Peter and Jesus says it is the church (Gal. 3:28, 29; 4:1-4; Romans 2:28,29 for starters). Who has always been persecuted? The church. Read Martin Luther and see what was going on in his time. The Old Testament teaches the same exact principle- natural Jews or Israelites were cut off and Gentiles were grafted in over and over even in the Old Testament. This has always been the case. it is not replacement theology, it is fact from day one. The pre-tribbers are teaching replacement theology with replacing the church with Khazaria. If a man lay down with a man, he was to be cut off from the people. Is that man even though a natural Israeli, still an Israeli? Not according to God. His circumcision was made uncircumcision. He was no longer IN Yahweh. In the New Testament, if IN Yeshua, we are God's people. He that hat the Son (whether Jew or Gentile) hath life; he that doth not have the Son (Jew or Gentile) hath not life. He that denies Jesus as Messiah is antichrist if you read John's epistles. got to go. Gave you a bunch to think about. :?D

P.S. I believed and slightly taught the pre-trib/dispensationalism thing for about 32 years until I actually studied the scriptures and prayerfully asked God some questions and I noticed some things being taught were off and the pile of things that were off kept growing. The thing that got me was Matthew 24:32 and how everyone was teaching the fig tree was Israel in this verse and had something to do with 1948. Here are the problems with their hermeneutical holocaust of the scriptures.
1. The passage is a metaphor as it has the word like, as or likewise in it.
2. It is saying "when you see all these signs I am giving you happening all at the same time, you know spring is near like the flowers and leaves shooting forth in spring are that sign." (my paraphrase)
3. Luke 21 says this which totally debunks that. "when you see the fig tree AND ALL THE TREES..." How people teach on a subject and didn't even read the parallel synoptic gospel that gives a little extra details scares me. they call themselves scholars.

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

That was my journey out of the false teaching. It started with one of their 5 most quoted passages being taken out of context and had nothing to do with any country. I bet Hal Lindsey is moving that goalpost back another 40 years now because he said the rapture had to take place before 1988 as many, many pre-tribbers did. I wonder if many left Jesus like they did in 1844 when what people were teaching didn't happen like they said it would? Now we are two months shy of 72 years since 1948. Is Hal a liar or Jesus? A generation is 40 years in scripture. They keep changing their foundation and if a foundation can be moved it is made of sand and not bedrock.

thesacredcowtipper,

1. Where do you get your information about Hal Lindsey?
My father had The Late Great Planet Earth and There’s A New World Coming. He never said that. True pre-tribbers say no one knows the day or the hour, they are not date setters.

2. The phrase, time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7. Daniel gives the same picture as does Matthew 24:15,21.
First of all your exegesis is misleading.
Just because a plain statement is not made every time doesn’t mean it is not the same thing.
Two, Galatians 3:28 doesn’t say, nor implies anything about Jacob. The next verse mentions Abraham’s seed. So you violated your rule about plain statements and you don’t even have one in that scripture.
None of those scriptures mention or imply Jacob.
Your hermeneutics are wrong.

3. Saints of all ages have been persecuted.
Israel was trodden under the feet of men Matthew 5:13, especially in 70 A. D. Where their complete nation was destroyed. The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church Matthew 16:18.

4. I already debunked your position and you haven’t rebutted it and that is why you have to keep posting your position instead of rebutting.

5. You are the one with pre-suppositions because you’re hermeneutics are wrong and misleading and scripturally are not there as in the case of the time of Jacob’s trouble and the Galatian scriptures you gave. Why do you do that?

6. I agree a lot of happening with the professing church but not the true church.
I don’t think I agree with your assessment of Christians in the western world necessarily including that Jesus would be the last to rapture them even though an argument could be made compared to foreign countries who are under heavy persecution.

7. God has always been no respect of persons before, during, or after the Mosaic law.
Proselytizing was not wrong until Calvary officially and legally Ephesians 2:14-15 and manifested in Acts 10 and it was not was not replacement theology.
Grafting in is not proselytizing and not replacement theology.
Nobody is arguing Jews are not a part of the church or gentiles are not a part of the church.
We are all on the same level of ground spiritually if we are saved.
In the Old Testament law period Jews were God’s chosen people but God bless as new respect or of persons spiritually between them and the Gentiles. The advantage the Jews had were that they had the covenants and had a complete theocracy.
I have already debunked the spiritual Jew theory.

8. The Antichrist will already have plucked up 3 of the 10 horns before the Thessalonians 2. Read Daniel 7-20. The 10 horns give their power to the Antichrist in the middle of the tribulation to kill off the religious system, the Mystery Babylon Revelation 17 to set up his own religious program with the false prophet Revelation 13.
2nd Thessalonians has to do with the abomination of desolation v 4.
Yes there will be a falling away but not with the church, but the tribulation saints who the Antichrist makes war on Revelation 13:7 and the Jews for Zechariah 13:9 says 2/3 will be cut of and 1/3 will come through the fire.

9. From what I have read in your posts you are the one that is missing the mark and as far as the Dr. Ice how do I know that is true and even if it is he is not very good at exegeting and the things about Hal Lindsey are false as far as I recall and doesn’t sound like a pre-tribute for no one knows the day nor the hour. So I think you are very misinformed.
You surely are contradictory with your hermeneutics and then try to project it on to me such as in the time of Jacob’s trouble. That is unfair debate. Your position has been debunked already and you have shown you can’t rebut the real truth that I have shown. Why do you do that? You’re going to have to do better than that. Jerry Kelso

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

littlepeskylambofJesus,

1. 70 A.D. was prophesied to happen by Jesus. Remember?

2. There are plenty of times that God kept his people from specific times of judgement.
Enoch is a type of the rapture. Genesis 5:21:24.
Methuselah his son’s name meant the deluge or the end is coming.
Noah and the flood will be the days of the tribulation Matthew 24:37-39.
Noah and his family were preserved in the ark and if you notice Israel, the sun clothed woman is preserved in the wilderness and the scattered remnant are preserved through Armageddon Revelation 11:13; 12:14-17.
There are other accounts of God keeping his people from specific times and places, temptations and judgements etc.
Lot and Abraham, Rahab and others.

3. Luke 21 is about a warning to Israel who is out of covenant with God's and this is the possibility of things that happen that deal with their purification process by tribulation.
Israel had a specific blessing and cursing system.
Verse 24; Not only will the Jews fall by the edge of my head sword, be led away captive into all nations, but Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles ( Matthew 5:13, trodden under the feet of men) till the gentiles be come in (Romans 11:25).

4. The great supper of God is Armageddon which God wipes out the armies of the nations not Israel his people Revelation 16:16 and the beast kingdom worshippers too Revelation 16:2.

5. It is not escapism to God as much as it is order.
All Christians go through tribulation but God knows how to keep the godly safe out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement 1 Peter 2:9. Jerry Kelso

 

[visionary]

"Know not the day or hour." You have to go back to the Jews to understand that statement. Yeshua was talking to the Jews and telling them that it is like a groom getting a home ready for his bride. When it is finished to the Father's satisfaction then He can go get His Bride. Since Yeshua doesn't know that day or hour, if any one asks He would tell them "Only the Father knows." It is also a phrase that is used for the start of the feast of trumpets... as it is hard to tell when it comes because of a lot of reasons so they say "know not the day or hour".. But it does mean we will know a lot more if we are following the fall feasts.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

Some good stuff you said there but I challenge you to check out everything I said that you think I am uninformed on. Be a Berean and research EVERYTHING I said. I don't have a problem with that. You should. You don't know me from Adam. My memory is 99% to 99.5% accurate. I'm not just saying that. It's a gift and a curse to have my memory as you remember the good and the bad very well.

Lindsey didn't give a date. He said the rapture had to happen BEFORE 1988 though and wasn't the only one who believed that or taught that. It was very common in the 1980's. I just aged myself there. Scripture teaches a generation to be 40 years or less. 40 is the number for trials and tribulations in the Bible too. Children of Israel 40 years in the desert. Jesus 40 days tempted of the devil. 40 days ascension into heaven. I have been a Christian and student since 1985. I was around when many of the things were said. Why I started a watchman ministry. Followed every false movement in the churches and denominations. There are about 20 right now at the same time. Pre-trib is just one false movement that started in 1829/1830 but futurism predates to a Jesuit writer (enemy of the church) about 100 years before that.

Just like people denying today what John Hagee said that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah to the Jews in false book In Defense of Israel. He is a false teacher. I was watching him on the very day he first said it the first time TBN advertised it as My Dad watched John Hagee religiously twice a day every day. I was there when Hagee threatened to sue Hank hannagraff for exposing his false teaching of Doctrine of Dual Covenants but there is a 1988 interview in the Houston Chronicle of him admitting it. So much for the passage that says to not sue a brother. Hagee is a wolf. Here is Hagee saying nothing but heresy and lies. I think he converted to Kabbalah Judaism. It would explain his false teachings on the blood moons.

Thomas Ice did say that. Believe me I do not want to be a false witness. And you can look this up. Dr. John Walvoord along with Tim Lahaye stated there is not one clear verse in scripture that teaches a pre-trib rapture. That you have to read between the lines. So much for exegesis and hermeneutics. But 1st Thess. 4:13-18 clearly teaches a pre-wrath/post trib rapture in two verses.

Would you be willing to take my pre-trib rapture challenge? No on has debunked it in three years. I wont' think you are stupid if you can't debunk it. It just can't be debunked. But I wold like you to at least try. Three rules in exegesis- context, context, and context. If the passage is read in this manner thee is only one answer.

I encourage you to get a year's long research on the history of the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism done by Fighting the Good Fight Ministries (Joe Schimmel along with Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson).

Many of these top pre-trib people are interviewed. I challenged thousands to my pre-trib rapture challenge. No one can debunk it including Ice and others as I gave the challenge to the entire raptureready web site. I gave it to thousands of ministers, pastors and Christians in America. Two takers and they went into dispensationalism. They could not exegete the 6 verse passage which is one of the easiest passages to exegete if you don't go to it with a presupposition that pre-trib is definitely true and are wanting the truth no matter where it leads. I was pre-trib for 32 years until I researched for myself as I am asking you to be honest and do.

I already came to the conclusion the Bible taught a pre-wrath/post trib rapture before Schimmels' video came out and already knew about 50% of his 5 hour long research but I was even able to learn some things I didn't previous know on the subject. Every character from day one was shady. Even Charles Spurgeon warned of John Nelson Darby. Go to archives.org I think it is and read what Spurgeon said about Darby and his people. Most Christians only know about 1% to 5% of the history of the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism. About 50 to 100 cults came out of it like JW, 7th day, Branch Davidians, and many offshoots. Just sayin'.

Now back to some of what you said.
God protected the Messianic Jews in AD 70. He protected Noah but they WENT THROUGH the tribulation and the wrath of God- protected by God of course as God promised to never pour out His wrath on His children. That doesn't mean he can't protect and it also doesn't mean that it just may be His will for a certain number (as it says in Revelation) to be beheaded.

Yes Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23 of the destruction of Jerusalem as well as Daniel 9:26,27 due to many abominations of going back to animal sacrifice. Sadly the "he" in verse 27 since 1830 has went from Jesus establishing THE covenant in the middle of the 70th week to becoming the antichrist by modern pre-tribber teachers. It says AFTER in the one verse and 69 weeks already happened so the "he" is Jesus and not some 2,000 year later antichrist. Then the turn THE covenant into some weird peace treaty. I stick with the KJB on that as it is the only one I know that says THE which makes it definitive. Other translations changed it to A covenant which opens the door to further change the meaning of the passage and say things it doesn't say in there. THE = ONE. A = POSSIBLY MANY. Read the old commentaries and see what they say about verse 27. Be lucky to find more than one or two that don't say it is Jesus- check out Wesley, Henry, Gill, etc. Sadly, Bible scholar PHD's are not very impressive in this last 100 years. They should have read the passage in Daniel 9 at least ten times. I don't know how they don't see the word AFTER there.

Why are you saying the church cannot fall away? That is what apostasy is. An unsaved person cannot fall away. They never fell forward. Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:4,5, 11, and 23-25 is to His followers not the unsaved just as He gave warning to the 7 churches in Asia Minor (old Turkey back then) even threatening to remove their names out of the Book of Life and vomiting out others in Laodicea. It is the church that apostatizes. We are seeing it happen big time right now. Look at all the churches now doing gay marriages or begging to not have their 501c3 status taken away. Almost every church incorporated under Caesar instead of being Ecclesiastical under the headship of Jesus.

In saying that, there will be a remnant but many will fall away. Jesus said ti would happen, we are seeing it happen, and it just has started.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who is Paul talking to here? Almost ALL Gentile believers.
Can they be deceived? Totally or Paul was pretty retarded to say and quote Jesus (Matt. 24:4,5) with "Let no man deceive you". Much of the church has to fall away in order for the antichrist to come forth which I think is soon. Some were teaching that the resurrection had already passed. Was Paul saying here that the resurrection and the rapture are the same thing? yes. Matches perfectly with Alive and REMAIN in 1st Thess. 4:15, 17 to the coming (parousia; 2nd advent) of the Lord.

Okay, I gave you way too much. Take the pre-trib rapture challenge. I will do a youtube video to force people like Thomas Ice and others to have to take my challenge publicly if no one will answer that ONE simple question in it.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

thesacredcowtipper,

1. Where do you get your information about Hal Lindsey?
My father had The Late Great Planet Earth and There’s A New World Coming. He never said that. True pre-tribbers say no one knows the day or the hour, they are not date setters.

2. The phrase, time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7. Daniel gives the same picture as does Matthew 24:15,21.
First of all your exegesis is misleading.
Just because a plain statement is not made every time doesn’t mean it is not the same thing.
Two, Galatians 3:28 doesn’t say, nor implies anything about Jacob. The next verse mentions Abraham’s seed. So you violated your rule about plain statements and you don’t even have one in that scripture.
None of those scriptures mention or imply Jacob.
Your hermeneutics are wrong.

3. Saints of all ages have been persecuted.
Israel was trodden under the feet of men Matthew 5:13, especially in 70 A. D. Where their complete nation was destroyed. The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church Matthew 16:18.

4. I already debunked your position and you haven’t rebutted it and that is why you have to keep posting your position instead of rebutting.

5. You are the one with pre-suppositions because you’re hermeneutics are wrong and misleading and scripturally are not there as in the case of the time of Jacob’s trouble and the Galatian scriptures you gave. Why do you do that?

6. I agree a lot of happening with the professing church but not the true church.
I don’t think I agree with your assessment of Christians in the western world necessarily including that Jesus would be the last to rapture them even though an argument could be made compared to foreign countries who are under heavy persecution.

7. God has always been no respect of persons before, during, or after the Mosaic law.
Proselytizing was not wrong until Calvary officially and legally Ephesians 2:14-15 and manifested in Acts 10 and it was not was not replacement theology.
Grafting in is not proselytizing and not replacement theology.
Nobody is arguing Jews are not a part of the church or gentiles are not a part of the church.
We are all on the same level of ground spiritually if we are saved.
In the Old Testament law period Jews were God’s chosen people but God bless as new respect or of persons spiritually between them and the Gentiles. The advantage the Jews had were that they had the covenants and had a complete theocracy.
I have already debunked the spiritual Jew theory.

8. The Antichrist will already have plucked up 3 of the 10 horns before the Thessalonians 2. Read Daniel 7-20. The 10 horns give their power to the Antichrist in the middle of the tribulation to kill off the religious system, the Mystery Babylon Revelation 17 to set up his own religious program with the false prophet Revelation 13.
2nd Thessalonians has to do with the abomination of desolation v 4.
Yes there will be a falling away but not with the church, but the tribulation saints who the Antichrist makes war on Revelation 13:7 and the Jews for Zechariah 13:9 says 2/3 will be cut of and 1/3 will come through the fire.

9. From what I have read in your posts you are the one that is missing the mark and as far as the Dr. Ice how do I know that is true and even if it is he is not very good at exegeting and the things about Hal Lindsey are false as far as I recall and doesn’t sound like a pre-tribute for no one knows the day nor the hour. So I think you are very misinformed.
You surely are contradictory with your hermeneutics and then try to project it on to me such as in the time of Jacob’s trouble. That is unfair debate. Your position has been debunked already and you have shown you can’t rebut the real truth that I have shown. Why do you do that? You’re going to have to do better than that. Jerry Kelso

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

Come on Jerry. Take the pre-trib rapture challenge. Why are you afraid? it is ONE question. Why are thousands of ministers and Christians afraid if they have the truth? I am merely teaching what almost all the old commentary greats taught. It's really nothing new. It's just how God brought me out of the false and into the truth on end times and THEN I found out I basically believe what the majority always taught over the centuries until John Darby in 1830 brought a new way on how to interpret scripture. Darby was not a humble man and started the cult of the Closed Plymouth Brethren and was rejected by Charles Spurgeon and a few others.

PRE-TRIB RAPTURE CHALLENGE
1st question: How can I be ALIVE AND REMAIN at the SECOND COMING (parousia), if I have already been RAPTURED (harpazo) and GONE in some pre-tribulation rapture? How can I remain and be gone? Logical fallacy. Am I right? Think it over for just a little bit and it will dawn on you.

The 2nd coming (parousia) according to pre-trib teaching comes AFTER the rapture (harpazo) so why would Paul say those of you Gentile believer that still remain UNTO the coming (parousia).....? that UNTO is a huge word that pre-tribbers cannot get passed. REMAIN UNTO.
Read the passage. It is very, very, very pre-wrath/post trib. Like I said to another fellow on here, there isn't one clear verse that proves a pre-trib. I gave you one of a handful or more that does teach what I am saying. I either believe the Bible and Paul or the majority of pastors in America who never researched the subject for themselves.

See what the passage says now? I'm not missing the mark on this subject. NO one can debunk this simple question so something is seriously wrong with their theology. I am not about to throw the book of Thessalonians out and I have to if pre-trib teaching is right because it means the apostle Paul lied and Darby's method of hermeneutic is correct. He clearly said what he said. God exalts His Word above His name. This is in Psalms somewhere. God Bless bro. I seriously would like you to take this to heart and prayerfully ask God how that passage 1st Thess. 4:13-18 can say what is is saying and yet so many believe what they do. The onyl way the passage can be changed is by taking the greek words parousia and harpazo and switching them around. Like I say in apologetics, one logical fallacy is all that is needed to debunk something. There are about nine other logical fallacies that I can bring up with pre-trib teaching. I will not waste my time doing so though if you can't see what is plainly said by Paul in this ONE passage. Keep in mind those believers Paul was talking to believed they were living in the very last days and the question they asked was "will we see our loved ones again who died in Jesus"? that is the context. Who is raised FIRST at his parousia (2nd coming)- those who died in Christ.

have a good one. If you see the truth, I will knight thee Sir Loin since I am the sacred cowtipper. LOL.

 

[jerry kelso]

Come on Jerry. Take the pre-trib rapture challenge. Why are you afraid? it is ONE question. Why are thousands of ministers and Christians afraid if they have the truth? I am merely teaching what almost all the old commentary greats taught. It's really nothing new. It's just how God brought me out of the false and into the truth on end times and THEN I found out I basically believe what the majority always taught over the centuries until John Darby in 1830 brought a new way on how to interpret scripture. Darby was not a humble man and started the cult of the Closed Plymouth Brethren and was rejected by Charles Spurgeon and a few others.

PRE-TRIB RAPTURE CHALLENGE
1st question: How can I be ALIVE AND REMAIN at the SECOND COMING (parousia), if I have already been RAPTURED (harpazo) and GONE in some pre-tribulation rapture? How can I remain and be gone? Logical fallacy. Am I right? Think it over for just a little bit and it will dawn on you.

The 2nd coming (parousia) according to pre-trib teaching comes AFTER the rapture (harpazo) so why would Paul say those of you Gentile believer that still remain UNTO the coming (parousia).....? that UNTO is a huge word that pre-tribbers cannot get passed. REMAIN UNTO.
Read the passage. It is very, very, very pre-wrath/post trib. Like I said to another fellow on here, there isn't one clear verse that proves a pre-trib. I gave you one of a handful or more that does teach what I am saying. I either believe the Bible and Paul or the majority of pastors in America who never researched the subject for themselves.

See what the passage says now? I'm not missing the mark on this subject. NO one can debunk this simple question so something is seriously wrong with their theology. I am not about to throw the book of Thessalonians out and I have to if pre-trib teaching is right because it means the apostle Paul lied and Darby's method of hermeneutic is correct. He clearly said what he said. God exalts His Word above His name. This is in Psalms somewhere. God Bless bro. I seriously would like you to take this to heart and prayerfully ask God how that passage 1st Thess. 4:13-18 can say what is is saying and yet so many believe what they do. The onyl way the passage can be changed is by taking the greek words parousia and harpazo and switching them around. Like I say in apologetics, one logical fallacy is all that is needed to debunk something. There are about nine other logical fallacies that I can bring up with pre-trib teaching. I will not waste my time doing so though if you can't see what is plainly said by Paul in this ONE passage. Keep in mind those believers Paul was talking to believed they were living in the very last days and the question they asked was "will we see our loved ones again who died in Jesus"? that is the context. Who is raised FIRST at his parousia (2nd coming)- those who died in Christ.

have a good one. If you see the truth, I will knight thee Sir Loin since I am the sacred cowtipper. LOL.

the sacredcowtipper,

1. I already debunked your nonsense and you have not tried to rebut the scriptural context I have given.
You have shown you are not hermeneutically and misquote me so the more you post the less credible it is.

2. Post tribbers believe basically that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will happen right before Armageddon.
They believe that Christ will bring back the righteous dead; which he will v 15.
Those who are alive and remain will be caught up at that time.
You have twisted that phrase alive and remain and make it for post trib position which is one thing even though it is wrong.
They are raptured in the same setting but you apply the rapture part to pre- trib and make it a separate context so you can prove they are wrong.
The dead in Christ and those alive and remain are one setting whether you believe pre or post.

3. There are 7 feasts and the last three are prophetic and have not happened.
They are the feast of trumpets, feast of the Day of Atonement, and the
Day of Tabernacles.
We are still in the time of the Feast of Pentecost.
Trumpets is the gathering of saints which is rapture.
The Day of Atonement which is about repentance which is tribulation as the time of Jacob’s trouble for the Jews.
The Feast of Tabernacles is the millennium.
This order cannot be changed.
Now I have debunked your twisting the scriptures in your favor to the truth which is not in your favor.
I have shown the order of the feasts can’t be changed and the feast of trumpets the rapture, comes before the Day of Atonement which is the time of Jacob’s trouble, the tribulation and the Feast of Tabernacles is the millennium. Jerry Kelso

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

the sacredcowtipper,

1. I already debunked your nonsense and you have not tried to rebut the scriptural context I have given.
You have shown you are not hermeneutically and misquote me so the more you post the less credible it is.

2. Post tribbers believe basically that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will happen right before Armageddon.
They believe that Christ will bring back the righteous dead; which he will v 15.
Those who are alive and remain will be caught up at that time.
You have twisted that phrase alive and remain and make it for post trib position which is one thing even though it is wrong.
They are raptured in the same setting but you apply the rapture part to pre- trib and make it a separate context so you can prove they are wrong.
The dead in Christ and those alive and remain are one setting whether you believe pre or post.

3. There are 7 feasts and the last three are prophetic and have not happened.
They are the feast of trumpets, feast of the Day of Atonement, and the
Day of Tabernacles.
We are still in the time of the Feast of Pentecost.
Trumpets is the gathering of saints which is rapture.

The Day of Atonement which is about repentance which is tribulation as the time of Jacob’s trouble for the Jews.
The Feast of Tabernacles is the millennium.
This order cannot be changed.
Now I have debunked your twisting the scriptures in your favor to the truth which is not in your favor.
I have shown the order of the feasts can’t be changed and the feast of trumpets the rapture, comes before the Day of Atonement which is the time of Jacob’s trouble, the tribulation and the Feast of Tabernacles is the millennium. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,
1st Thess. 4:13-18 clearly teaches that the resurrection and the rapture happen at the same exact time with the dead in Christ rising first. Do you know what parousia even means? It means 2nd coming. Why are you ignoring the original languages that debunk the pre-trib rapture?
1. Who was Paul talking to?
Not JEWS. He was talking mainly to Gentile believers. Their may have been 1% Jews in those churches. The very text is given to GENTILE believers following Jesus. You took this totally out of its context.
2. When does Paul then say the parousia (2nd coming) happens?
Right after the harpazo (rapture).
3. What does remain (pereelipio) mean?
It means "survive". Survive what if we are not having to go through tribulation?
4. REMAIN: What does "remain" me Jerry? If you are gone, you didn't remain.
5. These Gentile believers thought they were already in the end time tribulation.
6. If as pre-tribbers teach that God is going back to the natural Jews to give them one last chance, there are three major problems with this thinking.
a. Jews have been being saved for 2,000 years already.
b. it sounds like these very Jews kill the last two prophets literally right before Jesus returns as the prophets are killed right at the end of the 6th trumpet in Revelation 11. Doesn't sound like any of them getting saved. When the earthquake hits, it only says that SOME fo them give God glory- it never says they come to Christ.
c. With pre-trib thinking, you are saying God is going to have a big wedding feast WITHOUT the final Jews coming to Christ during the great tribulation. Would they not also be part of the bride? There isn't two brides unless of course Jesus is a polygamist. Is Jesus a polygamist? I'm just going along with the teaching that is being taught. It makes no sense.

Your doctrine makes no sense. that's why none of you will attempt to answer the question. You just can't admit you are teaching something that the church never taught. It's a cult. there is NO logical fallacy if looking at the passage as a post-trib passage but a total logical fallacy if seen as pre-trib.

What pre-tribbers are doing is the same thing that false Baptist pastor William Miller did which caused the first falling away when the rapture did not take place in 1844. They believed it so bad and when it was wrong, some left Jesus. Other's went and formed cults. There is ZERO good fruit with this doctrine. Just think if these people in 1844 were plunged into actual tribulation when the rapture didn't happen. I think most would have left Jesus totally. Isn't it better to prepare people for persecution like the rest of the world goes through? It is a promise of Jesus to go through persecution.

You haven't read the passage yet in CONTEXT 1st Thess. 4:13-18. You have debunked nothing. You ignore the Greek words and what they actually mean. Your whole theology is based on the presupposition that the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism is true and you go to the Word of God trying to prove it. This is not exegesis sir. You are doing eisogesis like Kenneth Copeland's false prosperity teaching and Klepto Dollar's "little gods" teaching. You are approaching God's Word the same way they do but just on another subject.

I don't think you realize I am teaching what almost every single teacher up to 1830 has taught including John Wesley and many others. You are full of pride thinking you have a teaching that only the elite learners can learn. Are you a freemason, one of the elite, one of the "initiates" as Origen and other false teachers talked about as they brought gnosticism into the church? Secret knowledge? Now it is an end time false teaching. The Bible says much of the church will follow teachers that have itchy ears in the end. People like Thomas Ice, Tim Lahaye and the others made a mega-million dollar lifestyle off this stuff. No different than Copeland and Dollar and Joyce Meyer. I am not jealous. I am well pretty well off which I gained from hard work and wise decisions in life.

SO ONCE AGAIN"
You haven't answered the question. "How can I be alive and remain and raptured and gone at the same time? You are throwing red herrings out and diverting from the question because you lost the debate. I think you need to quit listening to the Perry Stone type preacher/teachers that think they have a new revelation every month. You seem like a smart person but I was in the same boat as you. What youa re teaching what I was taught. I followed the Perry Stone's, Tim Lahaye's etc. That is all that was taught in America on Christian TV and all that was taught in Bible Colleges. I got an indoctrination instead of an education. 'm just trying to show you this teaching is very flawed.

This teaching also says the "he" in verse 27 of Daniel 9 is the antichrist. It was always taught that Jesus was the "he" in this verse and it is plainly Jesus. Satan must be laughing at the western church.
Jesus cut the covenant in the middle of the 70th week. There is no missing 7 year period yet to be fulfilled. You can count, can't you?
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
Realize, how that the first 7 weeks (49 years) was completed so Jesus could not have died before the 70th week started. See that big word AFTER in verse 26?

doe the Words AFTER mean anything to pre-tribbers in that passage. 69 weeks had passed. No, they change that verse in their PRESUPPOSITION to fit their doctrine they want to believe and teach to fit that instead of what the text actually teaches. Once again, almost all great Bible commentators pre-1830 teach what I am teaching on this verse also.

another logical fallacy:
If pre-trib rapture teaching were true and there is an unfulfilled 7 years and this rapture took place 7 years before the end of the tribulation, every moron on the planet could set their watches and clocks to 7 years later and know the day and hour Christ returned which Jesus plainly said NO ONE knows, nto even Him.

Can I ask you this, "would you have come to Christ like a North Korean person who is warned that if they come to Christ they could be imprisoned, killed, tortured or put in a work camp the rest of their lives if they do?" People like jACK vAN iMPE IS MAKING A LOT OF FALSE CONVERTS promising them they won't have to go through anything as they can get caught up int he rapture before all hell breaks loose. Most Christians in America wouldn't. 98% don't even share their faith regularly with free speech still in place. They are living for their Joel Osteen better life now along with most Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists. etc. Jesus isn't coming back for the American church. It is worse than Laodicea so even if the pre-trib rapture teaching were actually true, Jesus is only coming back for the faithful on-fire bride of Christ who isn't ashamed of Him. And if you don't think 90% or more of Christians in America are lukewarm, I don't know what town you are living in but I may want to move there.

 

[jerry kelso]

Come on Jerry. Take the pre-trib rapture challenge. Why are you afraid? it is ONE question. Why are thousands of ministers and Christians afraid if they have the truth? I am merely teaching what almost all the old commentary greats taught. It's really nothing new. It's just how God brought me out of the false and into the truth on end times and THEN I found out I basically believe what the majority always taught over the centuries until John Darby in 1830 brought a new way on how to interpret scripture. Darby was not a humble man and started the cult of the Closed Plymouth Brethren and was rejected by Charles Spurgeon and a few others.

PRE-TRIB RAPTURE CHALLENGE
1st question: How can I be ALIVE AND REMAIN at the SECOND COMING (parousia), if I have already been RAPTURED (harpazo) and GONE in some pre-tribulation rapture? How can I remain and be gone? Logical fallacy. Am I right? Think it over for just a little bit and it will dawn on you.

The 2nd coming (parousia) according to pre-trib teaching comes AFTER the rapture (harpazo) so why would Paul say those of you Gentile believer that still remain UNTO the coming (parousia).....? that UNTO is a huge word that pre-tribbers cannot get passed. REMAIN UNTO.
Read the passage. It is very, very, very pre-wrath/post trib. Like I said to another fellow on here, there isn't one clear verse that proves a pre-trib. I gave you one of a handful or more that does teach what I am saying. I either believe the Bible and Paul or the majority of pastors in America who never researched the subject for themselves.

See what the passage says now? I'm not missing the mark on this subject. NO one can debunk this simple question so something is seriously wrong with their theology. I am not about to throw the book of Thessalonians out and I have to if pre-trib teaching is right because it means the apostle Paul lied and Darby's method of hermeneutic is correct. He clearly said what he said. God exalts His Word above His name. This is in Psalms somewhere. God Bless bro. I seriously would like you to take this to heart and prayerfully ask God how that passage 1st Thess. 4:13-18 can say what is is saying and yet so many believe what they do. The onyl way the passage can be changed is by taking the greek words parousia and harpazo and switching them around. Like I say in apologetics, one logical fallacy is all that is needed to debunk something. There are about nine other logical fallacies that I can bring up with pre-trib teaching. I will not waste my time doing so though if you can't see what is plainly said by Paul in this ONE passage. Keep in mind those believers Paul was talking to believed they were living in the very last days and the question they asked was "will we see our loved ones again who died in Jesus"? that is the context. Who is raised FIRST at his parousia (2nd coming)- those who died in Christ.

have a good one. If you see the truth, I will knight thee Sir Loin since I am the sacred cowtipper. LOL.

thesacredcowtipper,

1. I already took your challenge and debunked your theory both times. So it is you who are not wanting to face up to the truth.

2. The Old Testament commentary’s. Read your Bible the Old Testament didn’t know a lot of things about the New Testament scriptures.
The mystery of the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:52.
They knew the resurrection of the dead John 11:24; Hebrews 6:1.
They didn’t understand the mystery of the Jews Ephesians 2:14-15.
They are blinded til the time of the gentiles be come in. That will be the Day of the Lord when the Lord comes to Armageddon with the saint in Heaven to rescue the Jews. Revelation 1:7 They will mourn and look on the one they pierced. That is the Jews. There is nothing about the church being on the earth looking up for the return of the King from Heaven at Armageddon or going up and then coming down immediately such as in the post trib scenario.

3. Darby had a way of being organized and detailed. It was quite refreshing for the public to understand the word easier.
Before his time, The RCC kept the public from really reading the Bible so they could keep the people from really knowing what the truth really was.

4. I told you from the first that our hermeneutics were different and word translations and meanings.
You must have read over the information or just couldn’t comprehend it. You obviously didn’t agree with it.
But you haven’t rebutted anything because you must not be able to.

5. I don’t believe you believe the Bible or Paul properly.
I could give you a list of those that believe in my position. So what.

6. Some of those you mentioned you followed have studied hundreds of thousands of hours. So I don’t know who you are talking about.

7. All the scriptures across the board have to be taken in consideration and they prove your parousia in that passage is wrong.

8. I am quite serious about proper exegesis. And I am quite serious that you are not right.
Debunking is not a logical fallacy by and late.
I had no problem debunking your position and in different passages. All you can do is give your side and belief and think that is good. Sorry. To inform you but that don’t fly.

9. There is a resurrection and a rapture I the Thessalonians passage.
There is none in Revelation; there is only a resurrection of the dead. Revelation 14:13 says blessed are those who die henceforth.
The first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 are those who didn’t take the mark. And they die in Revelation 15:1-2 before the 7 vials are poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers.
There cannot be those are alive and remain being caught up otherwise the Jewish remnant would be raptured and we know that doesn’t happen.
Think logical for a change.

10. Last, you didn’t say anything about the order of the feast order.
The fall feasts that are still future are the feast of trumpets, day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.
Feast of trumpets is the rapture. Day of atonement is the tribulation for the time of Jacob’s trouble pertaining to the Jews and the feast of tabernacles is the millennium. The order can’t be changed and you can’t debunk that.
This is an argument you can’t debunk or win. Give up. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

They are blinded til the time of the gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Are all of the Israelites partially blinded, or are part blinded, and part are not blinded?
The answer is found in Romans 11:1-5.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

jerry kelso said: ↑
baberean2,
1. I respect Corrie Ten Boom and I read The Hiding Place when it first came out.
I don’t recall a direct reference to the Pre-trib rapture.
I can surely understand why she might think that way about people that believed in escapism and not any real tribulation but she never set a real precedent about the church going through the time of Jacob’s trouble. Jerry Kelso

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Jesus implied escapism would'nt be easy up to the holocaust of 70AD in which those that heeded the call to flee Judea/Jerusalem would escape........

littlepeskylambofJesus,

About as pesky as a few members on here I know...............

 

[jerry kelso]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Are all of the Israelites partially blinded, or are part blinded, and part are not blinded?
The answer is found in Romans 11:1-5.

.

baberean2,

1. There are Israelites who are saved and they are in the church today of Jews and Gentiles as the remnant of grace Romans 11:1-5.

2. Many of them live in the nation of Israel physically and some don’t.
The church of Jews and Gentiles is a microorganism not bound b where you live.

3. The other Jews that are not saved. Many live in Israel and many don’t.
They are the ones that are blind.

4. Blindness in part is happened to Israel the nation shows that all of Israel the nation will be saved when the time of gentiles be come in.
The mystery is that Israel as a complete nation are blind until Christ comes back.
The church is not backslidden.

5. Zechariah 13; in that day which is the same as the season of the day of the Lord that there will be a fountain to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem specifically, not the church of today. The church is not backslidden and do not have idols in the land for the church is not designated to a specific country.
V 6; those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. This is none other than Israel and can’t be transferred to today’s church physically and spiritually. You can only spiritualized the church in there.
The church of today will not have two parts cut off and a third left in by coming through he fire.
If this were the church would be trodden down under the feet of men and the gates of hell would prevail against it and it would mean that the church would be the remnant and thee would be no pre, mid, or POST rapture.

6. Romans 11:1-5 harmonize with 11:25 for there will be a remnant who will be joined with the rest of Israel who are preserved in the wilderness Revelation 12:13-17. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

About as pesky as a few members on here I know...............

littlelambofJesus,

The real truth is pesky to some.
Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Blindness in part is happened to Israel the nation shows that all of Israel the nation will be saved when the time of gentiles be come in.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:



Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:



Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

baberean2,

1. God has a divine order such as Prophet, Priest and King or Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

2. a). Redemption is in the Feast of Passover
b). Sanctification is in the Feast of Unleavened Bread
c). Giving of ourselves to God and being in Covenant of what is ours is his and what is his is ours is in the Feast of First Fruits
d). The infilling of the Holy Spirit is in the Feast of Pentecost
Three of these men 20 and over had to come to Passover Exodus 23:17; Pentecost 34:23 Tabernacles Deuteronomy 16:16.
e). Passover is redemption, Pentecost is your Holy Spirit Baptism, Tabernacles is the resurrection and the KoG that’s predicted in the Old and New Testaments.
f). You have to be at this festivals for no one can be saved for you, no one can receive the Spirit Baptism for you and no one will be resurrected for you.
Every festival of the first three have fulfillment in Christ first coming.

3. Pentecost is the age we live in known as the age of grace or the Dispensation of the Grace of God as well as prophetically.

4. The three fall feasts that are left that have not happened; Trumpets, Day of Atonement and the Kingdom.
The Day of Atonement is the only feast with a double application. This is why Jubilees land on Atonement.
Trumpets is a picture of the rapture of the church 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18; Atonement is a picture of the tribulation in the time of Jacob’s trouble which Israel must go through Jeremiah 30:7; Tabernacles is a picture of the Kingdom where both the church and the nation of Israel will both inhabit Isaiah 2:1-5; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Micah 4
You cannot change the order. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. God has a divine order such as Prophet, Priest and King or Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

2. a). Redemption is in the Feast of Passover
b). Sanctification is in the Feast of Unleavened Bread
c). Giving of ourselves to God and being in Covenant of what is ours is his and what is his is ours is in the Feast of First Fruits
d). The infilling of the Holy Spirit is in the Feast of Pentecost
Three of these men 20 and over had to come to Passover Exodus 23:17; Pentecost 34:23 Tabernacles Deuteronomy 16:16.
e). Passover is redemption, Pentecost is your Holy Spirit Baptism, Tabernacles is the resurrection and the KoG that’s predicted in the Old and New Testaments.
f). You have to be at this festivals for no one can be saved for you, no one can receive the Spirit Baptism for you and no one will be resurrected for you.
Every festival of the first three have fulfillment in Christ first coming.

3. Pentecost is the age we live in known as the age of grace or the Dispensation of the Grace of God as well as prophetically.

4. The three fall feasts that are left that have not happened; Trumpets, Day of Atonement and the Kingdom.
The Day of Atonement is the only feast with a double application. This is why Jubilees land on Atonement.
Trumpets is a picture of the rapture of the church 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18; Atonement is a picture of the tribulation in the time of Jacob’s trouble which Israel must go through Jeremiah 30:7; Tabernacles is a picture of the Kingdom where both the church and the nation of Israel will both inhabit Isaiah 2:1-5; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Micah 4
You cannot change the order. Jerry Kelso

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.