THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

[jgr]

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Yes yes you have thrown that out like rotting garbage many times before!

Deplorably, that does all too frequently describe the dispensational opinion of the New Covenant.

 

[Contenders Edge]

It would be you who is the one thinking God is not powerful enough to fulfill His promises to Israel, by ignoring Hebrews 11:13-16, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

The corruptible has been changed to incorruptible in both of those passages.

Either you are confused, or those who recorded God's Word are confused.

.

You are the one that seems confused because you think that the better country that we are looking forward to has already arrived and that we are already living in a curse free universe:

"The corruptible has been changed to incorruptible in both of those passages."

Your words. Not mine.

All I presently see is a cursed and dying world that is becoming more ad more wicked. Not what I would expect from that which is incorruptible.

It would be you who is the one thinking God is not powerful enough to fulfill His promises to Israel, by ignoring Hebrews 11:13-16, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

But I am the one who believes God is powerful enough to make Israel and their land a part of the better country for which we are awaiting and that God is able to change the inheritance that has been defiled and corrupted into an incorruptible form. But apparently, you do not believe that God can do that and preserve it through the fire that is to come by which this present earth is to pass away.

 

[Contenders Edge]

If you answer, I'll answer.

Awaiting.

And if there is an answer, it is one of theory and conjecture.

 

[Contenders Edge]

OH I know this one!!!

YOu know you are talking to a dispensationalist when: They do not have to reinterpret Scripture but take prophecies at face value and expect God to live up to His Promises!

And if we can take prophecies at face value, we can take the entire Word of God at face value.

 

[jgr]

And if there is an answer, it is one of theory and conjecture.

Either the answer is in the historical record, or it's not.

No theory or conjecture applicable.

Awaiting.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Either the answer is in the historical record, or it's not.

No theory or conjecture applicable.

Awaiting.

So, you don't know if the answer is in the historical record or not.

 

[jgr]

So, you don't know if the answer is in the historical record or not.

I know Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.

Whom do you know?

Awaiting.

 

[Contenders Edge]

I know Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.

Whom do you know?

Awaiting.

So, those are the only two figures that you know? Then what I know or don't know does not matter to this discussion. Just because neither you or I know who all the early church fathers were does not mean that they did not exist nor does it mean that they were all in agreement with one another on every doctrinal tenet.

You and I do not know enough about that era to claim a consensus on replacement theology either way and just two citations are not enough to settle the matter because there will be someone else with more knowledge about that generation than you or I who will be able to cite names in support of the Dispensationalist position. What will your response be then? And besides, Irenaeus did not explicitly claim that the Church replaced the nation of Israel in your citation. You can still believe that you are a child of Abraham in spirit by adoption through Christ and not necessarily believe that the Church has replaced Israel as a nation.

And I speak to both of us when I say this that before either one us has the audacity to make such bold assertions on where the generation succeeding the Apostles stood on every matter of doctrine, we need to take the time to objectively and fairly research that era. But that would require an extensive amount of research that might require many hours of both of us.

 

[jgr]

Justin Martyr + Irenaeus = 2
Contender's Edge = 0
2 divided by 0 = infinity

Awaiting.

Or here's an out for you:

"There is no recognized defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who rejected the aforecited understanding expressed by Justin Martyr and Irenaeus."

Copy/paste/post that sentence.

Then we can talk about preterism.

 

[claninja]

And a third temple would prove that Christ is not a partial-preterist but has more in common with Dispensationalists; the re-establishment of Israel clearly setting the stage for a third temple.

There have been 3 attempts (132-135 ad, 363 ad, and 614 ad) to rebuild a 3rd temple by the Jews. All attempts failed.

Here is a very interesting historical account. Around 363 AD Julian the Apostate commanded to the Jews to rebuild the temple as a means to oppress the Christians and falsify the words of Christ.

Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories

"Though the emperor hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the [biblical] patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning [the allegorical meaning, through which the Christians could prove the validity of Christianity from the Old Testament].

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the Temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the Temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. [Sacrifice was permitted by Jewish law only in Jerusalem.] The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.

The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. [Since Jesus in the New Testament had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, its rebuilding would make of him a false prophet.] Besides this motive, the Jews themselves [relying on the sympathy of Julian] were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their Temple."

Notice what happened when the Jews and pagans began to rebuild the temple: earthquakes and fires preventing the construction.

"When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the Temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body."


"The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen."

Your assertion that a 3rd temple would disprove partial-preterism and prove dispensationalism is an interesting one, considering Julian the apostate and the surrounding pagans wanted to build a 3rd temple to disprove Christianity, and make Christ out to be a false prophet. I also find it interesting that despite history showing multiple failed attempts to build a 3rd temple, in addition to Jesus stating that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of worship, the dispensationalists are still pushing for a physical temple.

john 4:21-24 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

 

[jgr]

There have been 3 attempts (132-135 ad, 363 ad, and 614 ad) to rebuild a 3rd temple by the Jews. All attempts failed.

Here is a very interesting historical account. Around 363 AD Julian the Apostate commanded to the Jews to rebuild the temple as a means to oppress the Christians and falsify the words of Christ.

Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories

"Though the emperor hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the [biblical] patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning [the allegorical meaning, through which the Christians could prove the validity of Christianity from the Old Testament].

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the Temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the Temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. [Sacrifice was permitted by Jewish law only in Jerusalem.] The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.

The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. [Since Jesus in the New Testament had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, its rebuilding would make of him a false prophet.] Besides this motive, the Jews themselves [relying on the sympathy of Julian] were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their Temple."

Notice what happened when the Jews and pagans began to rebuild the temple: earthquakes and fires preventing the construction.

"When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the Temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body."


"The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen."

Your assertion that a 3rd temple would disprove partial-preterism and prove dispensationalism is an interesting one, considering Julian the apostate and the surrounding pagans wanted to build a 3rd temple to disprove Christianity, and make Christ out to be a false prophet. I also find it interesting that despite history showing multiple failed attempts to build a 3rd temple, in addition to Jesus stating that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of worship, the dispensationalists are still pushing for a physical temple.

john 4:21-24 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Here's additional compelling evidence from the 363 AD attempt:

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

 

[jgr]

So, those are the only two figures that you know? Then what I know or don't know does not matter to this discussion. Just because neither you or I know who all the early church fathers were does not mean that they did not exist nor does it mean that they were all in agreement with one another on every doctrinal tenet.

You and I do not know enough about that era to claim a consensus on replacement theology either way and just two citations are not enough to settle the matter because there will be someone else with more knowledge about that generation than you or I who will be able to cite names in support of the Dispensationalist position. What will your response be then? And besides, Irenaeus did not explicitly claim that the Church replaced the nation of Israel in your citation. You can still believe that you are a child of Abraham in spirit by adoption through Christ and not necessarily believe that the Church has replaced Israel as a nation.

And I speak to both of us when I say this that before either one us has the audacity to make such bold assertions on where the generation succeeding the Apostles stood on every matter of doctrine, we need to take the time to objectively and fairly research that era. But that would require an extensive amount of research that might require many hours of both of us.

Justin Martyr + Irenaeus = 2
Contenders Edge = 0
2 divided by 0 = infinity

Awaiting.

Or here's an out for you:

"There is no recognized defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who rejected the aforecited understanding expressed by Justin Martyr and Irenaeus."

Copy/paste/post that sentence.

Then we can talk about preterism.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Justin Martyr + Irenaeus = 2
Contender's Edge = 0
2 divided by 0 = infinity

Awaiting.

Or here's an out for you:

"There is no recognized defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who rejected the aforecited understanding expressed by Justin Martyr and Irenaeus."

Copy/paste/post that sentence.

Then we can talk about preterism.

You flatter yourself in declaring victory too early before doing the required research; something that you clearly are not willing to take the time to do. In the eyes of one who has done so and from a fair and objective perspective, your research would be pathetic. And judging by the following mockery filled statement:

"There is no recognized defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries who rejected the aforecited understanding expressed by Justin Martyr and Irenaeus."


You would declare anyone from that generation who did not declare the Church as the replacement of Israel as a nation and people a heretic and false prophet even if they were a recognized historical defender of the faith, therefore listing any names of those whose eschatology was similar to what is identified as Dispensationalism might be pointless.

You might as well take Irenaeus off your list of supporting sources since he does not go so far as to call the Church Israel, at least according to your citation.​

 

[Contenders Edge]

There have been 3 attempts (132-135 ad, 363 ad, and 614 ad) to rebuild a 3rd temple by the Jews. All attempts failed.

Here is a very interesting historical account. Around 363 AD Julian the Apostate commanded to the Jews to rebuild the temple as a means to oppress the Christians and falsify the words of Christ.

Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories

"Though the emperor hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the [biblical] patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning [the allegorical meaning, through which the Christians could prove the validity of Christianity from the Old Testament].

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the Temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the Temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. [Sacrifice was permitted by Jewish law only in Jerusalem.] The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.

The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. [Since Jesus in the New Testament had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, its rebuilding would make of him a false prophet.] Besides this motive, the Jews themselves [relying on the sympathy of Julian] were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their Temple."

Notice what happened when the Jews and pagans began to rebuild the temple: earthquakes and fires preventing the construction.

"When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the Temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body."


"The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen."

Your assertion that a 3rd temple would disprove partial-preterism and prove dispensationalism is an interesting one, considering Julian the apostate and the surrounding pagans wanted to build a 3rd temple to disprove Christianity, and make Christ out to be a false prophet. I also find it interesting that despite history showing multiple failed attempts to build a 3rd temple, in addition to Jesus stating that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of worship, the dispensationalists are still pushing for a physical temple.

john 4:21-24 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Despite that the attempts at building a third temple might have been done for nefarious purposes and not with any noble intent, a third temple would never make Jesus out to be a false prophet, and if the erection of a third temple were to be successfully done in our day, it would be regarded as scriptural fulfillment. Ezekiel chapters 40-48 clearly speak of another Temple of the likes not ever seen but that is an entire study in and of itself.

But the Temple in which Christ will rule, will not be so much as the center of worship as it will be the center of Christ's rulership on the earth.

 

[nolidad]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:


Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)



Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　



Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution


Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


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So you choose to rely on Josephus to determine things instead of the Bible- that is your choice!

But neither Titus, nor any of His generals ever stood in the holy of holies as prophesied by Daniel and reaffirmed by Jesus and Paul

2 thess. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And it matters not if the Jews of Jesus or Josephus day accepted antiochus to be the abomination who makes desolate- for Jesus warned he was to come in the future!

As for this line of yours:
"Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel."

Yes , some portions of the olivet discourse do overlap, but the command to flee is based on two seperate events and two differing outcomes!

LUKE:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

When Jerusalem is encompassed by armies- flee for those are the days of vengeance, and Jews will be scattered globally.

MATTHEW:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here they are to flee not when Jerusalem is surrounded, but the abomination of desolation stands in the holy of holies. The end results are also different as well!

In Luke Jews are scattered
In Matthew great tribulation so great it will never be repeated nor ever occurred in all of history! (Remember the flood)

Remember the Apostles asked 3 separate questions.

1. When will the temple be destroyed
2. What is the sign of Jesus coming
3. What is the sign of the end of the age.

 

[nolidad]

Deplorably, that does all too frequently describe the dispensational opinion of the New Covenant.

Isn't it interesting.

Neither dispensation theology or covenant theology are mandated by Jesus or the Scriptures.

One relies on a simple reading of Scripture and the other requires one read between the lines. I wonder which one Jesus preferred (that is rhetorical for he was a literalist)

One accepts god at His Word and the other reinterprets unambiguous passages to get them to read something the Scripture itself does not say!

 

[nolidad]

And if we can take prophecies at face value, we can take the entire Word of God at face value.

It is sad that God who created grammar, gave man the ability to read and to have base understanding, has to have people who think God didn't mean what He says.

We know of the symbolic, apocalyptic and visionary passages are not literal, but they do have literal fulfilments here on earth. God calls us to read and understand- we do not need reinterpreters!

Another thing I do not understand is how over 2000 years of human history is forced to fit nto the old covenant when they did not live under the MOsaic Law!

 

[nolidad]

Interesting exchange brethren........

Still waiting for you to answer what were the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, when did the angel fly the world warning people not to take the mark, what the mark was, who was the ten headed beast or what was the ten headed beast and what was Babylon the Great the Mother of all harlots!

 

[nolidad]

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Either you are confused, or Peter was confused on the Day of Pentecost.

.

No peter was not confused! He knew He was not talking to the whole house of Israel! He knew there were more Israelites than what were gathered there at Pentecost as I am sure you know also! He was addressing the men there, and I don't know the name of the figure of speech for what he did- but he declared that all Israel know that Jesus is Lord- if you can prove over 2 million people were gathered outside the upper room in Jerusalem when the Apostles started preaching- you have at least one legf to stand on!

Otherwise not all parts of the New covenant have been fulfilled yet- which is typical of many covenants God made with mankind or Israel!

See I am not confused either!

Jeremiah said all Israel and Judah would have their sins removed, Paul confirmed it and Pentecost was not that day!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Still waiting for you to answer what were the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, when did the angel fly the world warning people not to take the mark, what the mark was, who was the ten headed beast or what was the ten headed beast and what was Babylon the Great the Mother of all harlots!

I identify the 1st century Jerusalem as the harlot/Great City in Revelation at this link.....

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19'''


Revelation 17:
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast[from Sea?], these shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating
and shall be burning Her in fire.
17 For the GOD gives into Their hearts to do the mind of Him, and to do One mind and to give Their kingdom to the Beast
until shall be being finished the words of the GOD.

Revelation 18:
18 And they cried, observing the smoke of Her burning, saying, "What is like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried, lamenting, weeping and mourning, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships in the sea, out of Her preciousness,
for to one hour was She was desolated.
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I am putting this up for a study, and this is my translation of these 3 chapters in Revelation concerning the great City/harlot/Babylon/Queen.