Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

[Daniel Marsh]

If you can't see it I doubt I could convince you.

I have a Jewish background. Justin was reviewed at Temple by the Rabbi-Professor. He showed that Justin only criticized those who bore false witness and sent him to Roman Government to be killed. That the sins of any human were the cause of Jesus needed to be hung on the cross. It was a comparative religion course by him. We read all of Justins' works to see what he said was true.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If you can't see it I doubt I could convince you.

"O, had the children of Israel sincerely realized all these favors and many others, they would never have deviated so shamefully from the word, law, will, and commandments of God their Savior and Deliverer, who in every respect treated them with such a paternal spirit. But because they did not acknowledge the gracious beneficences which the Lord showed unto them, and because they did not fear the righteous judgments against them, therefore the wicked, blind flesh and the adulterous spirit of idolatry has so misled them, so estranged them from God, and made them so drunk and mad that they acted worse than the Gentiles which were before them, whom God had, on account of their sinfulness, rejected and scattered, as the holy prophets in divers Scriptures show and proclaim."

"For if the literal Israel was so severely punished and crushed by God, because they did not abide by the law, commandments, statutes, and righteousnesses of their God, and because they did not hear and receive the reproving, admonition, and teachings of their faithful prophets who spoke to them through the inspiration of God, but stoned them, put them to the sword, killed, upbraided, and blasphemed them; following a worship to suit their own taste, as has been shown above—O, what must we, then, expect from God, if we do not abide by the wholesome doctrine of grace, by the right holy sacraments, by the works of love which are pleasing to God and by the pious, unblamable life which no Moses, prophet, angel, nor creature has taught us, but which the eternal Son of God, the eternal wisdom and truth, the eternal love and mercy, the blessed Christ Jesus has taught us by his own blessed mouth, by the command of his Almighty Father, which command is eternal and immutable, whose love for us is ineffable, who has confirmed it by virtue of miracles and at last sealed it with his precious blood; and has proclaimed the same to all the world by his faithful testimony, his holy apostles, in incomprehensible power of the Spirit; which doctrine is nothing else, nor will it ever be any thing else, than the precious gospel of peace, the glad tidings of grace, the remission of sin, the victory over death, hell, and the devil; besides, grace, peace, freedom, and admission to the Father; and all this out of love and grace—not by works or merit of our own; but by means of Christ Jesus alone."

"Behold, dear brethren, as this judgment came first upon Israel, so it also has come upon us. For all flesh has corrupted his way, from the lowest to the highest. The heavens are iron, and earth is metal. There are found in the vineyard of the Lord no dew, no moisture, nor ripe fruits; there is no digger, no pruner, nor tender. Every where it is accursed; the walls and hedges are trampled down; it is laid waste to be trampled upon by all men; strangers have dominion thereof. The Gentiles have entered into the sanctuary, and have soiled the temple of the Lord. Our princes are to us devouring lions; our fathers are our betrayers; our pastors are our deceivers; our shepherds are our wolves; our watchmen are the thieves and murderers of our souls. We find nothing but thistles and thorns; it is all plundered and robbed; it is all torn up and broken down wherever we turn. And all this on account of our sinfulness; this we must confess before our God."

"The precious word of grace and of eternal peace, which is the most holy gospel of Jesus Christ, you account for nothing more than a fable, nay, as accursed heresy; for you drown, burn, persecute, and murder those who teach, admonish, and reprove you by this word, and who by a strong power of the Spirit are sent to you of God, by grace; just as the mad synagogue of the Jews did; so that they did not only persecute and destroy the chosen children of God, the holy prophets, but also the only begotten Son of God himself; who by the ineffable love of the merciful Father was sent to them for their own, eternal salvation. What did they say? "This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance," Matt. 21: 38."

Do you consider these to be anti-semtic statements?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

As for Sunday, beware of misquotations and misrepresentations in the ECF:

Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

I have the full set on my shelf and read for context.

If the Sabbath is the 7th day, Sunday is the 1st day, then what is the 8th day?

 

[Crosstian]

I have the full set on my shelf and read for context.

If the Sabbath is the 7th day, Sunday is the 1st day, then what is the 8th day?

There is no "8th day" in the weekly cycle. See Genesis 1-2; Exodus 20:8-11, etc.

There is an "8th day" from birth to circumcision of a male however. It is not the 8th day of the week (since there is no such thing).

Totally differing time keepings and events and purposes.

Joh_7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Did you just read that circumcision also took place on the 7th day, the Sabbath? This is because they are two differing keepings of time, for differing purposes and differing events.

 

[Dave-W]

Do you consider these to be anti-semtic statements?

In general - yes.

 

[Dave-W]

If the Sabbath is the 7th day, Sunday is the 1st day, then what is the 8th day?

There are a few "eighth days" mentioned in scripture.

One is for male circumcision - which is the 8th day from birth, no matter where in the week that falls.

Another is the 8th day of a 7 day festival of Tabernacles - Sukkot. The 8th day (see Lev 23) is called Shmini Atzeret and is a separate feast day.

Of course there are the numerological superstitious types that try to make the 8th day "the day of new beginnings," but there is no scriptural support for such a supposition.

Any time you have an 8th day, it is NOT referring to a day of the week but the given time from one point to another, regardless of where in the week it falls.

 

[Crosstian]

I have a Jewish background. ...

That's great! So did Jesus!

What is not so great, is so did Judas.

Now, just consider, Luke 4.

 

[klutedavid]

Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus
Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath.

Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Ignatius Martyr 69 AD
And after the observance of the sabbath (that the Jews kept), let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all days of the week.

The Didache 80 AD
But every Lord's day (Sunday) gather yourselves together, and break bread and give thanksgiving.

Justin Martyr 100-151 AD
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read”

Barnabas 110 AD
Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present sabbaths are not acceptable to me. I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day on which Jesus rose again from the dead

Irenaeus AD 150-202
And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.

Clement AD 196
He in fulfilment of the precept, keeps the Lord’s Day when he abandons an evil disposition ... glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.

Origen AD 185-253
It is plain from Holy Writ that manna was first given on earth on the Lord’s day. But if it be clear from the Holy Scriptures that God rained manna from heaven on the Lord’s day, and rained none on the Sabbath day, let the Jews understand that from that time our Lord’s day was set above the true Sabbath.

Tertullian AD 200
We solemnise the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day

No doubt SDA doctrine is found in the Bible not in the Epistle of Barnabas.

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't matter about what any "church" has taught ... what matters is what Jesus and the apostles taught ... and we are to follow the Lamb ... He is our perfect example. Jesus and the apostles kept the 7th day Sabbath.

amen! Bible based doctrine is far better than man-made doctrine

 

[Crosstian]

Ignatius Martyr 69 AD
And after the observance of the sabbath (that the Jews kept), let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all days of the week.

Here is the long form of the citation, since there are several conflicting:

"... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.

But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.

It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

The Didache 80 AD
But every Lord's day (Sunday) gather yourselves together, and break bread and give thanksgiving.

Your quote is misleading and in error in translation (as most are, begging the question). The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

"... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

Where is the word for "day" (hemera)? Where is the word for "Sunday"? Where is the word "first"?

It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord).

Your translation is imaginary.

So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

Barnabas 110 AD
Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present sabbaths are not acceptable to me. I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day on which Jesus rose again from the dead ...

So according to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the Sabbath, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do you accept this also?

 

[Crosstian]

I also note, that the person who is relying upon spurious, imaginary and illogical, doesn't quote one time from the scriptures, the source of all authority and belief, practice and doctrine.

Sounds like what Jesus said, "traditions of men", breaking the commandments of God.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In general - yes.

The quote was from The Complete Works of Menno Simons

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I guess you are aware that Jewish People consider the NT itself to be anti-Semitic.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No doubt SDA doctrine is found in the Bible not in the Epistle of Barnabas.

more likely the early Adventists were taught it by someone else.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

amen! Bible based doctrine is far better than man-made doctrine

all protestant teaching were man made.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here is the long form of the citation, since there are several conflicting:

"... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.

But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.

It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

Your quote is misleading and in error in translation (as most are, begging the question). The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

"... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

Where is the word for "day" (hemera)? Where is the word for "Sunday"? Where is the word "first"?

It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord).

Your translation is imaginary.

So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

So according to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the Sabbath, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do you accept this also?

"The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us." Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day," on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things," who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!"
St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I also note, that the person who is relying upon spurious, imaginary and illogical, doesn't quote one time from the scriptures, the source of all authority and belief, practice and doctrine.

Sounds like what Jesus said, "traditions of men", breaking the commandments of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 [Full Chapter]
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Your problem is SDA doctrine is not taught by those who were taught by the Apostles themselves.

The Church Fathers informs us how the early church understood the NT which was not even canonized until around 400 AD.

Since SDAism can not be found in the Church Fathers that demonstrates that SDAism does not teach what the early church believed.

 

[Dave-W]

I guess you are aware that Jewish People consider the NT itself to be anti-Semitic.

Indeed I Am.

Until proven wrong by the Dead Sea Scrolls, centuries of Jewish scholars considered parts of the OT to be antisemetic Christian documents as well.

 

[BobRyan]

all protestant teaching were man made.

until you read the Bible (the very document you claim to be avoiding like the plague in your ECF threads)


consider the following example -

The doctrine of the Trinity -

The NT teaches this:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Please stick with the historical sources of the Early Church Fathers.

Also, do not use I John 5:7 with Jehovah's Witnesses or with other Arians. Since, even they know it was an addition to the NT.

================================

Regarding the Bible doctrine on future judgment

BobRyan said: ↑
instead of finding it in Daniel 7, 2 Cor 5:10 .. Romans 2 you want us to ignore the Bible and look for what comes centuries later??

Seriously??

The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. .

==========================

How "nice" then that the Westminster Confession of Faith, The Catholic Catechism, the Baptist Confession of faith ... all confirm that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant. (Which of course - includes the Sabbath Commandment)