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Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

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JackRT

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No engineer designing long distance infrastructure, eg railroads, bridges, canals etc - ever allows for curvature. Not one piece of property on earth has earth curve in its survey plan

Perhaps you have never heard of the survey of the USA/Canadian border along the 49th parallel? Or the survey of the Manitoba/Saskatchewan border? Or just about any major land survey. You are blowing smoke and you know it.
 
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Jipsah

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I believe what you're referring to is not due to an object dipping over the horizon. Rather, it is due to the vanishing point.
Gimme a technical explanation of how this "vanishing point" works. Does if "vanish" the lower parts of objects, say ships, so it looks like they've dropped below the horizon but have not? How does that happen?

We may disagree here on our observation of the physical world around us which is fine.
Yeah, the sun may actually rise in the southwest and set due north.

The bottom line for me though is that I prefer to stick with Scripture which as far as I'm aware, never describes the earth as a moving orb that circles the sun.
We still *say* that, don't we? Just as the writers of Scripture did. They weren't compiling a scientific tome, were they?

Instead we find the opposite as Scripture depicts the earth as a stationary circle (two-dimensional) around which the moon and sun move.
wucg us how it appears to a terrestrial observer, and how you or I would write it even now if we weren't interested in being technically precise. C'mon, we have to let reality intrude every now and then. We do no service to the Faith by acting otherwise.
 
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Jipsah

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I think what you describe is the vanishing point where the bottom of objects at a distance "disappear" from the bottom up.
A fairly transparent attempt to "explain away" what you see when an object drops below the horizon. Why doesn't that same effect obtain with aerial objects?

It could be an object on the water or on the road - doesn't matter as the visual laws of perspective rule.
Perspective has nothing to do with it. At all.

The hull of the ship appears to get closer surface to the surface of the water and it "sinks" as it recedes into the distance.
Or it disappears below the horizon, as everyone pretty much already knows.
 
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Jipsah

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You just showed me photos of a hull beneath the water line. From the perspective of a vanishing point, things disappear from the bottom up. Eventually, as the perspective diminishes, the sails also sink beneath the water.
Just as though the earth were spherical. Shazam!
 
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Jipsah

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I do not subscribe to your anthropocentric view of Scripture.
Who was it written for, then, fish? God writing to Himself? If He didn' intend to communicate with people, why write it at all?
 
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prodromos

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You just showed me photos of a hull beneath the water line.
That ship is beyond the horizon, so the hull is hidden by the curvature of the earth.
From the perspective of a vanishing point, things disappear from the bottom up.
No they don't. They just get smaller and smaller. Atmospheric conditions and temperature differentials near the surface can cause refractions or haze which can hide the lower parts, but they can also cause things which should be hidden by the earth's curvature to be visible (fata morgana illusion).
Eventually, as the perspective diminishes, the sails also sink beneath the water.
No, that is not perspective.
 
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prodromos

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I do not subscribe to your anthropocentric view of Scripture. The Bible states that all Scripture is God-breathed; inspired by the direction of the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is not "man's viewpoint" but the viewpoint of God himself as written in Scripture. God knows what he created and it is not according to the imaginings of man.
God created man as the pinnacle of His creation and placed man over His creation. He created man to be in communion with Him and through the Scriptures revealed all of this to man. The Scriptures were certainly not written for His benefit.
 
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Oldmantook

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Who was it written for, then, fish? God writing to Himself? If He didn' intend to communicate with people, why write it at all?
Anthropocentric means "man-centered." The Bible was not written from the view of man but rather from God's view = THEOCENTRIC. The Bible is theocentric in derivation written for the benefit of us sheep.
 
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Oldmantook

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God created man as the pinnacle of His creation and placed man over His creation. He created man to be in communion with Him and through the Scriptures revealed all of this to man. The Scriptures were certainly not written for His benefit.
Where did I write that Scripture is written for the benefit of God?? It is written BY God for OUR BENEFIT. - FROM GOD"S POINT OF VIEW.
 
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prodromos

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Just as in the rules of perspective as in the vanishing point. Shazam!
No. In perspective everything vanishes at the vanishing point at the same rate. Nothing vanishes from the bottom up. What you are claiming is total nonsense.
 
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prodromos

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Anthropocentric means "man-centered." The Bible was not written from the view of man but rather from God's view = THEOCENTRIC. The Bible is theocentric in derivation written for the benefit of us sheep.
The Old Testament describes God in anthropocentric terms, such as "His right arm", "His feet", "His hands" and "His head", yet God is spirit and does not have a body with head and limbs, not until the Incarnation anyway. His description is a condescension to our difficulty in conceiving of a God who is completely other than His creation. When Genesis was written, the experience the average Jew had of the earth was limited to how far he could see or how far he could walk in a day. Describing the earth as a huge, tilted, rotating ball in orbit around a sun which was big enough to contain 1,000,000 earths would have been so utterly different to what he could actually experience on a day to day basis that it would have been as incomprehensible to him as an infinite, bodyless, uncreated God.
 
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Oldmantook

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No. In perspective everything vanishes at the vanishing point at the same rate. Nothing vanishes from the bottom up. What you are claiming is total nonsense.
Have you ever observed it for yourself? I have. Just look down a long stretch of flat road. As you observe a vehicle travel away from you, the bottom of the vehicle disappears first, followed by the top of the vehicle. It certainly does not vanish at the same time as you allege. When a vehicle approaches your direction from afar, the opposite happens as the top of the vehicle appears first, followed by the bottom half.
 
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Oldmantook

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The Old Testament describes God in anthropocentric terms, such as "His right arm", "His feet", "His hands" and "His head", yet God is spirit and does not have a body with head and limbs, not until the Incarnation anyway. His description is a condescension to our difficulty in conceiving of a God who is completely other than His creation. When Genesis was written, the experience the average Jew had of the earth was limited to how far he could see or how far he could walk in a day. Describing the earth as a huge, tilted, rotating ball in orbit around a sun which was big enough to contain 1,000,000 earths would have been so utterly different to what he could actually experience on a day to day basis that it would have been as incomprehensible to him as an infinite, bodyless, uncreated God.
You are coming from left field. We are not discussing what God looks like. We are discussing what the earth looks like. Furthermore, to make matters worse for you, what you describe is ANTHROPOMORPHIC not ANTHROPOCENTRIC. Your conflating two different terms only serves to weaken your argument.
 
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prodromos

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Have you ever observed it for yourself? I have. Just look down a long stretch of flat road. As you observe a vehicle travel away from you, the bottom of the vehicle disappears first, followed by the top of the vehicle. It certainly does not vanish at the same time as you allege. When a vehicle approaches your direction from afar, the opposite happens as the top of the vehicle appears first, followed by the bottom half.
What you are describing is evidence of the earth's curvature, not perspective.
It may also be due to refraction caused by the difference in density of hot air just above the blacktop and the cooler air above. Air currents caused by that hot air rising is what causes the haze and distortion above the road surface in the distance.
 
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prodromos

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You are coming from left field. We are not discussing what God looks like. We are discussing what the earth looks like.
God is described in terms accessible to their human experience, just as the earth is.
Furthermore, to make matters worse for you, what you describe is ANTHROPOMORPHIC not ANTHROPOCENTRIC. Your conflating two different terms only serves to weaken your argument.
I might mix the terms up but it doesn't change my argument.
 
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Oldmantook

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God is described in terms accessible to their human experience, just as the earth is.

I might mix the terms up but it doesn't change my argument.
It certainly does change your argument as makes you point moot and totally irrelevant as in apples and oranges. Enjoy your fruit.
 
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Oldmantook

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What you are describing is evidence of the earth's curvature, not perspective.
It may also be due to refraction caused by the difference in density of hot air just above the blacktop and the cooler air above. Air currents caused by that hot air rising is what causes the haze and distortion above the road surface in the distance.
You are grasping at straws. It works the same no matter what the weather conditions. Care to try again?
 
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prodromos

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You are grasping at straws. It works the same no matter what the weather conditions. Care to try again?
If that is the case then it is due to the curvature of the earth. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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