Catholic miracles defy any explanations

[prodromos]

the Catholic Church has never taught that incorruptible bodies never decompose. Eventually they do.

Apparently the Catholic Church does not want people to know this, otherwise why is the evidence of decay hidden?

 

[LostMarbels]

Suppose your church

My 'church' is the body of Christ. My High Priest Is Jesus the Christ after the order of Melchizedek. God is the author of my faith and the teacher of wisdom.

I don’t think that wax can work better than embalming fluid. How can wax preserve a body for centuries?

I simply do not care. Not one souls is won, not a single spec of honor for God is derived from it.

It is an 'anti', or 'instead of' God. A distraction from the entire point of christianity: Christ. Our focus is not miracles. It is to be Christ and his gospel. These parlor tricks do nothing to the edification of Christ's church.

This is not true. St Bernadette saw and talked to Mary. At Fatima, the children saw and talked to Mary.

Mary is a human, a human that is dead. She is not returning from the grave. She has no more authority than you or me. Neither of us will return from the grave to communion with the living either.

He dropped a piece of bread that then turned into a piece of human flesh. And although this piece was kept for 500 years, scientists recently examined it and discovered that it was a piece of a heart of a man who just RECENTLY died.

What does this mean? How is God honored by this?

The resurrection of Christ is an event that was passed down by generations – for 2,000 years! These events have happened within these last 200 years!

An event that was past down by generations. That is all it is? You need more to go by?

If we are skeptical of events that happened within these last two centuries then how can we accept something that happened twenty centuries ago?

This is melting my brain.....

then how we know that the resurrection of Christ that happened 2,000 with at most 513 witnesses was not manufactured?

I would have to ask how well do you know christ? Secular logic like this holds no sway over my own faith. I cannot even wrap my head around this because I talk to this man daily. I'm literally in a conversation with him over this thread as I am typing.

There is for me no other way of going forward:
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If I was face to face I would ask you to confess christ.

 

[Not David]

Guys, let's be friendly. Otherwise this thread will close up.

 

[LostMarbels]

Guys, let's be friendly. Otherwise this thread will close up.

Then maybe it should be. When I die I suspect I will be standing before an all holy God. Not the CF mods. It might behove me to please God rather than man.

This forum is not somewhere people come to just bang away on their keyboards about topics that do not affect real peoples lives. We are discussing issues that serve no purpose by walking on eggshells. Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. And do not be ashamed when the mockery for your stance in Jesus comes.

 

[prodromos]

Then maybe it should be. When I die I suspect I will be standing before an all holy God. Not the CF mods. It might behove me to please God rather than man.

By joining CF you agreed to abide by the rules. Do you want to stand before God as a liar?

 

[LostMarbels]

By joining CF you agreed to abide by the rules. Do you want to stand before God as a liar?

I have tried to bow out of this conversation so I did not cause offence. If someone replies to me I will speak my convictions regardless of how it is viewed. You either stand for what you believe or you don't. I stand by my convictions.

This is also General Theology. A debate forum. I did not hunt anyone down to bash their religion. Or their beliefs. They posted a thread on a public forum that is 'Featured' right there on the home page. There are areas they can go if they do not wish to have their views contended or debated.

 

[LostMarbels]

I want you to read these words:

God has raised Jesus from the dead, and the apostles are witnesses of this. But this happened 2,000 years ago. Eyewitness testimony has lost its impact over this much time. But God, in His mercy, has given us even more amazing miracles within just the last two centuries, even some miracles that are still going on. CITE

This individual claims the miracle of Christ's resurrection has lost its impact, it is old and no longer effective. But God is his mercy gave us a perfectly preserved Saint. God in his Mercy sent Mary to earth so she could reach those this old story about Jesus's resurrection can't save. Even more amazing, then the resurrection of Christ. Even more amazing, are these 'miracles', then the resurrection of my Christ.


And were just supposed to be silent? Shut my mouth and be friendly. How can anyone not see the perversion, nor the cause of offence one may wish to confront?

 

[danielmears]

Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know...God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
Acts 2: 22, 32

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12

This was a great argument for the claims of Christ. He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, which certified that He was sent by God. On top of that, God has raised Jesus from the dead, and the apostles are witnesses of this. But this happened 2,000 years ago. Eyewitness testimony has lost its impact over this much time. But God, in His mercy, has given us even more amazing miracles within just the last two centuries, even some miracles that are still going on. The only problem is that these miracles are with the Catholic faith. But they certify that Jesus is the Son of God. Here are the highlights.

1. Miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima

It may seem odd that the sun is moving, since we know that the sun is stationary, at least in reference to the earth. Any actual, sudden movement of the sun would be a catastrophic to our solar system. And yet this is supported in the Bible, where God caused the sun to stand still (Joshua 10:12-14). In the case in Fatima and in the Book of Joshua, it is not that the sun was actually seen to dance or that the sun stood still. It is what the people observed. God can bend the sun's light rays so that it appears that the sun is dancing or that sun has stood still. It miracle is the bending of the sun's rays that makes it appears to us as dancing or standing still.

In 1917 the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to three children several times at Fatima, Portugal. The last visit there were over 70,000 onlookers. But only the children could see and hear our Lady. One of the children, Lucia, then pointed up at the sky and shouted "Look at the sun!". The sun started to move around the sky, and started coming towards them. The people started to scream, thinking it being the end of the world. Then the sun went back in place.

Mind you, these were over thousands of people who witnessed this phenomenom. Critics say that this was a case of a mass hallucination. The problem with this is that people who lived in Fatima but did not go to the site and yet that they saw the movement of the sun. Not only that, the movement of the sun was even in the secular newpaper the next day.

How the Miracle of the Sun dazzled the sceptics | Catholic Herald

2. Incorruptible bodies of dead saints

Bodies of dead Catholic saints have decayed little or not at all! Critics explain this by saying that their bodies were preserved because they were buried in a dry place. But in many cases, these bodies were buried with other bodies of those who were not saints. The others were nor preserved.
My favorite is St Bernadette. Although she died 150 years ago, she looks as if she is just sleeping! See image below.

3. Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe

Mary appeared to a Mexican peasant over two hundred years ago. She wrapped some roses in a tilma (a Mexican cloak made of burlap) to give to the bishop. When the bishop saw this, he saw an image of Mary painted on the tilma.

In the past century, the Catholic Church allowed experts to investigate. Artists tried to duplicate the image on other tilmas, but on burlap the paint would run together. Scientist discovered that the pigments was not any pigments on earth. What is even more amazing is that scientists magnified Mary's eyes and found that the pupils contained images of people! How could any artist 500 years ago do anything such as that?

https://magiscenter.com/the-science-or-lack-thereof-behind-juan-diegos-tilma/

4. Eucharistic miracles

There are many eucharistic miracles, but my favorite has been the miracle in Lanciano, Italy, which happened 500 years ago. the priest accidentally dropped the Eucharist on the floor while giving communion. It no longer appeared as a host but as a piece of meat. The church has had it on display since then.

This past century, the Church has allowed scientists to examine this. It found that this meat was tissue from a person who recently died, and yet this was on display for centuries!

5 Extraordinary Eucharistic Miracles that Left Physical Evidence (With Pictures!) | ChurchPOP

5. Stigmata

Many saints have had the stigmata - who have deep wounds on their hands and possibly also their feet. This points back to our Savior having nails driven through His nails and feet. The earliest stigmatic I can recall was St Francis of Assisi. The latest has been St. Padre Pio in the last century. The Catholic Church at that time thought that St Pio induced these wounds on himself. Because of this, he was forbidden to give Mass. But thousands came to see him. After he died, the wound on his hands immediately healed.

Mystery of Padre Pio´s Stigmata Analyzed by Scientist - ZENIT - English

6. Venerable Solanus Casey And St. Andre Bissette

This monk was not considered to be intelligent enough to offer Mass or to hear Confessions. So he was just given the job of a receptionist. But he talked to people as they came to visit the monastery. He prayed over them. And miracles started to happen. People all over the country came to Detroit to get healed! This happened just this past century.
Metro Detroiters share their miraculous memories of Father Solanus Casey

Also, the same thing can be said of Brother Andre in Canada.

Brother André: The Rocket Richard of miracles


7. Healings at Lourdes

In the 1800's Mary commanded a peasant girl at Lourdes to dig in the ground with her hands. Water started to seep out. Eventually, the water became a huge lake. And when people bathed in the water, many of them were healed. Even people to this day come to Lourdes for healing. The Church is very careful about declaring these to be real healings. They have a panel of doctors to examine each one. These doctors would be sceptics in most cases. If they can explain any healing with a scientific explanation, then the Church would not declare it to be an actual miracle. There are at least 70 cases that have no scientific explanation. This does not mean that the others were not miracles - it only means that it is possible that there is some other explanation. There have been those who say that they have debunked these miracle. But as with the resurrection of Christ, these debunking seem to me to stem from an anti-supernaturalistic bias (or, in case of these Catholic miracles, it could also be an anti-Catholic bias).

The Lourdes miracle that brought a Nobel prize-winning doctor to faith

This peasant girl was St Bernadette, who has the corruptible body I mentioned above.

Even if one or two of these can be explained away (which I do not think can be done), it is difficult to explain away all seven of these miracles. These miracles validate the claims of the Catholic faith. But more importantly, it attests the truth claims of Christianity. There is no other religion that can attest of miracles that can come even close to these.

Also, I want to point out that there are also many miracles within Orthodoxy as well. I am not too familiar with them so I did not mention them. But in browsing them on the internet, I found them to be impressive.

I believe in miracles and have seen some amazing things myself! Commentary on “The Light”

 

[barry mckenzie]

2. Incorruptible bodies of dead saints

Bodies of dead Catholic saints have decayed little or not at all! Critics explain this by saying that their bodies were preserved because they were buried in a dry place. But in many cases, these bodies were buried with other bodies of those who were not saints. The others were nor preserved.
My favorite is St Bernadette. Although she died 150 years ago, she looks as if she is just sleeping! See image below.

3. Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe

Mary appeared to a Mexican peasant over two hundred years ago. She wrapped some roses in a tilma (a Mexican cloak made of burlap) to give to the bishop. When the bishop saw this, he saw an image of Mary painted on the tilma.

In the past century, the Catholic Church allowed experts to investigate. Artists tried to duplicate the image on other tilmas, but on burlap the paint would run together. Scientist discovered that the pigments was not any pigments on earth. What is even more amazing is that scientists magnified Mary's eyes and found that the pupils contained images of people! How could any artist 500 years ago do anything such as that?

I cant comment on every one of the so called miracles mentioned in the post, however the 2 above are hardly miraculous.

The so-called 'Incorruptible body of St Bernadette' shown above, apparently isn't so incorruptible at all. It would indeed be miraculous, if the body was preserved as well as is shown in the picture above, however the visible face & hands are made of WAX! The rest of the body, that is fully covered in clothing, is black & somewhat decayed, & is covered by a type of magnesium salt, which can be used to preserve bodies by drawing out moisture & drying the skin.

This miracle should be renamed 'Catholic Hoaxes that HAVE an explanation'

The other miracle mentioned is Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe
The claim that 'the pigments was not any pigments on earth' is false, & the so called 'people in her pupils' are nothing more than specs of paint, that look nothing like people, even under magnification. There are also claims that the cloth is made from cactus fibre, which should only last for 10 to 15 years, however an examination of the thread has found that the cloth is made from hemp, an extremely durable fibre which can easily last for 100's of years. The image is actually of Tonantzin, a Mexican goddess, however, the Catholic church, like they did with so many other pagan gods & customs, merely changed the name of the images of the goddess Tonantzin in Mexico to the virgin Mary.

So just another Catholic Hoax, NOT a miracle!

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

This shows that the Lord only does it (at least in this case) to get the Church's attention for canonization.

So all the dead Catholics should be dug up every 20 years to check up if God is giving us a hint ?

 

[prodromos]

The other miracle mentioned is Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe
The claim that 'the pigments was not any pigments on earth' is false, & the so called 'people in her pupils' are nothing more than specs of paint, that look nothing like people, even under magnification. There are also claims that the cloth is made from cactus fibre, which should only last for 10 to 15 years, however an examination of the thread has found that the cloth is made from hemp, an extremely durable fibre which can easily last for 100's of years. The image is actually of Tonantzin, a Mexican goddess, however, the Catholic church, like they did with so many other pagan gods & customs, merely changed the name of the images of the goddess Tonantzin in Mexico to the virgin Mary

I'm not Catholic, but do you mind giving links to citations that back up your claims?

 

[barry mckenzie]

I'm not Catholic, but do you mind giving links to citations that back up your claims?

You can find the info yourself if you search for it. Of course, you have to try to avoid all the pages written by Catholics & the Catholic church, to find the truth, (which is not easy, as they prolifically publish many articles, in order to crowd out any dissenting articles on the subjects, however, the truth is out there.

Here is one link discussing the link to the Mexican goddess Tonantzin, however there are others. I suggest that you do your own research.
The Virgin of Guadalupe and Tonantzin

I cannot find the link regarding the fibre of the cloth being made from hemp, however, this was determined by a test of strands taken from the edge of the cloth.
Here is an article regarding the wax mask & hands of St Bernadette:
The Not-Quite Incorruptible St. Bernadette of Lourdes

 

[prodromos]

Here is one link discussing the link to the Mexican goddess Tonantzin, however there are others. I suggest that you do your own research.
The Virgin of Guadalupe and Tonantzin

Wow! The resemblance is uncanny!
I can barely tell them apart.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Wow! The resemblance is uncanny!
I can barely tell them apart.

Both probably bear as much resemblance for the actual person so I would not get too excited.

 

[barry mckenzie]

Wow! The resemblance is uncanny!
I can barely tell them apart.

There can be many representations of what a particular deity looks like, just as there are many different representations of Jesus, depending on the culture & region. The early Christian representations of Jesus in artwork are nothing like the ones we have today, & most of them were borrowed from pagan gods as well! It is quite probable that the later images of Tonantzin were borrowed from images of the Catholic Virgin Mary, however images of the Catholic virgin Mary are probably copied from a pagan deity at some earlier point in time anyway.

 

[prodromos]

There can be many representations of what a particular deity looks like, just as there are many different representations of Jesus, depending on the culture & region. The early Christian representations of Jesus in artwork are nothing like the ones we have today, & most of them were borrowed from pagan gods as well! It is quite probable that the later images of Tonantzin were borrowed from images of the Catholic Virgin Mary, however images of the Catholic virgin Mary are probably copied from a pagan deity at some earlier point in time anyway.

You sound just like Alexander Hislop. That isn't a complement.
From the little that I have picked up from a quick search, there is no Mexican goddess named Tonantzin. It is an honorific title given to any number of "mother godesses" such as "Mother Earth", the "Goddess of Sustenance", "Honored Grandmother", "Snake", "Bringer of Maize" and "Mother of Corn"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You don't put any stock in such things as a church's confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Institutes of the Christian Religion, or anything like Sunday School materials, the Alpha Course for inquirers, then? Ditto for any book written by any church leader alive or dead. They serve no useful purpose at all, you are saying (?)

Very strange.

Did the early church have these things?

No.

 

[Albion]

All right, but by that token, the early church also did not have a Bible. So what are you left with? The Old Testament?

 

[dzheremi]

Did the early church have these things?

No.

So you've never heard of the Didache, I take it? Or the Didascalia? Or the epistles of the apostolic fathers like those of St. Ignatius and Polycarp?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you've never heard of the Didache, I take it? Or the Didascalia? Or the epistles of the apostolic fathers like those of St. Ignatius and Polycarp?

Need lots of evidences proving that they are divine in origin. We also need to address those contradictions in traditional Scripture involving these other so called holy documents.

For example:
Here are some problems involving the Didache.

Why the Didache is avoided by true Christianity