Catholic miracles defy any explanations

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Protestants don't rely on Protestant miracles because in general they don't have them. But they have feelings.
I hope y’all Catholics have feelings too! I had feelings when I was a Catholic. ;)

But why perpetuate this false premise? Regeneration is not just good feelings. We Protestants when not feeling so good hold on to the sure and steady promises of God. Most of us know the difference between happiness and Joy. When things are horrible like a 10 year old son has cancer then you get cancer and have both parents die within 2 years, sure don’t rely on emotions to get you to focus on the prize. But the Joy of Christ is constant. It never fades. It does not rely on how happy or how I feel. Frankly the Joy of Christ does not depend on me. It’s what He freely gives when God takes the heart of stone we have and replaces it with a heart of flesh which only we can answer “You are the Christ the Son of the Living God!”

Miracles? There are Miracles and then there are miracles.

I've seen answered prayer as a miracle. Like a 11 year old child who had cancer, some complications from treatments manifested an intestinal disease the doctors took a week to diagnose. Then tells the family every case this bad ended either in death or a life altering surgery which would make the kid handicapped the rest of his life.

The decision was not hard. Either surgery or watch the kid die. Surgery was scheduled for 8am. Over 5000 people prayed overnight. The next morning during pre op the surgeon informed the parents that the surgery was unnecessary and the disease was significantly reduced overnight.

The oncologist came in and informed the father that his son just made the medical journals. With tears in his eyes the oncologist said “wow never saw this.”
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Yarddog
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Protestants don't rely on Protestant miracles because in general they don't have them. But they have feelings. A song was sung in Campus Crusade for Christ goes like this: "He lives! He lives! You ask me how I know He lives! HE LIVES WITHIN MY HEART!" There is emphasis on heartfelt evidence - experiencing the abundant life. Everything is based on feelings. It nbearly turned me into an atheist.

When I was a Protestant minister, I was engaged to what I thought was the woman of my dreams. Then my church asked me leave. And then my fiancee dumped me. I was 30 years old and I had to go back to live with my parents. This was not the abundant life I was expecting. I went years without praying. I thought I was going to lose the faith.

I became a computer programmer and married a Catholic. I started to check out the claims of the Church. It made a lot of sense. And the Catholic Church does NOT rely on miracles. Actually, it is quite the opposite. For instance, of all the thousands of healings at Lourdes, the Church has only approved of 70. And even when they approve a miracle, they most they ever say is that it is worthy of belief. No Catholic is required to believe any miracle unless it is in the Bible.

But the Catholic Church understands that a Christian can experience the Dark Night of the Soul. Just as Jesus felt abandoned by the Father on the cross, so too we can experience abandoned by the God. It does not mean that one did something wrong. For instance, St Therese of Calcutta felt abandoned by God for FORTY YEARS! Try selling that to a Protestant evangelical who is expecting a life of inner peace and joy if he turns to Christ! But when St Theresa was on her deathbed, she experienced the presence of God as she did a long time ago. This Catholic idea of the Dark Night, was just what I needed to hear. It was a relief to know that I was not doing anything wrong. I realized that the abundant life was not just the warm fuzzies, it was also the cold pricklies. To experience the fullness of life means to experience the fullness of pain and even darkness as well as the joy and peace. Now I have no expectation from God in this life. If a Cross is given to me then so be it. I will follow Him.
I’d be careful. You just testified that externals and in some cases the material is necessary for your faith.

I don’t understand why the Cross and Resurrection is not enough. Over 500 saw the Risen Christ.

I know the Catholic Church teaches this.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,786
12,269
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,198,354.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I never saw or heard of anything that even comes close to these miracles I just listed.
That is because you are not an Orthodox Christian.
 
Upvote 0

MournfulWatcher

In the beginning was the Word.
Feb 15, 2016
392
444
United States
✟110,673.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I’d be careful. You just testified that externals and in some cases the material is necessary for your faith.

I don’t understand why the Cross and Resurrection is not enough. Over 500 saw the Risen Christ.

I know the Catholic Church teaches this.
Jesus' incarnation, death, and resurrection were all physical/material (as well as spiritual). We are material beings in a material world, God knows we need material things too, He made us this way. Externals are absolutely necessary for faith, otherwise we would have no one to put our faith in. Jesus is an external being who died externally and physically. Of course you need the physical to be saved, salvation came through a physical Man because mankind is physical (although not physical alone).

There seems to be an odd tendency in Protestantism to reject the physical. It's strangely similar to gnosticism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There seems to be an odd tendency in Protestantism to reject the physical. It's almost gnostic in nature.
That’s why I stated the Cross and Resurrection should be what we point to. Not apparitions and visitations from the faithful who have died and not yet risen.

Jesus said an adulterous generation seeks a sign and then told them the only sign they would get is the sign of Jonah. Aka the Resurrection. Since Pentecost the Gospel has come with Power.

The miracles of Christ were to prove Who He is. The miracles in Acts of the Apostles was to prove the Power of the the message the Gospel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yarddog
Upvote 0

MournfulWatcher

In the beginning was the Word.
Feb 15, 2016
392
444
United States
✟110,673.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
That’s why I stated the Cross and Resurrection should be what we point to. Not apparitions and visitations from the faithful who have died and not yet risen.

Jesus said an adulterous generation seeks a sign and then told them the only sign they would get is the sign of Jonah. Aka the Resurrection. Since Pentecost the Gospel has come with Power.

The miracles of Christ were to prove Who He is. The miracles in Acts of the Apostles was to prove the Power of the the message the Gospel.
Yes, the resurrection is the point, and we shouldn't seek miracles. I was replying to you saying materials shouldn't be necessary for our faith, when in fact it is, since the resurrection was material.

We shouldn't point to any other miracle than Christ's resurrection as our reason for believing, but other miracles still happen. In all honesty, I don't agree that the saints are dead. Yes they died physically but are in eternal life. I've heard too many testimonies of people being visited by Mary or other saints in dreams and visions and coming into Christianity through that. One was a former Muslim woman who had never heard of Mary but at eight years old she appeared in a dream to her. She asked who she was and she said, "I am Mary, the mother of Jesus." That was her first introduction to Christianity, and she became a Christian later in life. Specifically Baptist actually, and then later Episcopalian. She came and spoke at my church.

People don't need that to believe but it seems to be one of the ways God works in our lives. Be wary about it, by all means. I am. Don't let it be the one reason you believe. But also remember that the world is mysterious and so is God's way of working in our lives.
 
Upvote 0

LostMarbels

All-Lives-Matter
Jun 18, 2011
11,954
3,864
49
Orlando Fl
✟173,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Second of all, from my Catholic perspective, only the Catholic Church has the FULLNESS of truth.

What does this even mean? Jesus is the truth. The catholic church possess
the only full truth of God?

So even though God does work some miracles in other Christian bodies, they are not of the full magnitude as the miracles I listed.

The mummified remains of a women that have been preserved in wax is hardly a miracle. Neither is a past down account of someone seeing mary. A pastor dropped human flesh on the ground during eucharist? What? Are we to believe that is the flesh of Christ?

These are stories. Stories passed down by generations as tradition.

Is there a Protestant miracle that is similar to the sun dancing or incorruptible bodies? I was a Protestant for 15 years, and around 5 of those years I was a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God). And even though Pentecostalism professes to still believe that miracles are for today, I never saw or heard of anything that even comes close to these miracles I just listed.

Because they don't happen. Not like this. These are manufactured. God does not operate that way. I'll say it. I'll be the bad guy.

Satan has the ability to create 'miracles' or sorcery.

Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Exo 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

If Aaron and Moses are operating by God's authority, then who made the sorcerer's staves serpents? The devil. Outside of this context an individual that could throw down a staff and turn it into a snake would be feared and followed. Some may even say it would be 'an act of the gods'.

Likewise who talks to apparitions of the dead? Familiar spirits and wizards. Look into the witch of endor Samuel 28.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

So if God doesn't even want you asking 'mediums' to talk to the dead, why do you think God would send the dead to talk to us?
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,786
12,269
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,198,354.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Why don't you share some of the Orthodox miracles if the OP is ok with that?
It would probably end up looking too much like triumphalism. While we rejoice that God has shown particular mercy upon the Orthodox Church over the millenia, it is something we treasure and not something we trumpet to the world.
We don't view these miracles as proof that the Orthodox Church is the true church, we simply see them as God's Grace in a full measure, packed down and overflowing.
 
Upvote 0

Yarddog

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2008
15,334
3,575
Louisville, Ky
✟833,402.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know...God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
Acts 2: 22, 32

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12

This was a great argument for the claims of Christ. He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, which certified that He was sent by God. On top of that, God has raised Jesus from the dead, and the apostles are witnesses of this. But this happened 2,000 years ago. Eyewitness testimony has lost its impact over this much time. But God, in His mercy, has given us even more amazing miracles within just the last two centuries, even some miracles that are still going on. The only problem is that these miracles are with the Catholic faith. But they certify that Jesus is the Son of God. Here are the highlights.

1. Miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima

It may seem odd that the sun is moving, since we know that the sun is stationary, at least in reference to the earth. Any actual, sudden movement of the sun would be a catastrophic to our solar system. And yet this is supported in the Bible, where God caused the sun to stand still (Joshua 10:12-14). In the case in Fatima and in the Book of Joshua, it is not that the sun was actually seen to dance or that the sun stood still. It is what the people observed. God can bend the sun's light rays so that it appears that the sun is dancing or that sun has stood still. It miracle is the bending of the sun's rays that makes it appears to us as dancing or standing still.

In 1917 the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to three children several times at Fatima, Portugal. The last visit there were over 70,000 onlookers. But only the children could see and hear our Lady. One of the children, Lucia, then pointed up at the sky and shouted "Look at the sun!". The sun started to move around the sky, and started coming towards them. The people started to scream, thinking it being the end of the world. Then the sun went back in place.

Mind you, these were over thousands of people who witnessed this phenomenom. Critics say that this was a case of a mass hallucination. The problem with this is that people who lived in Fatima but did not go to the site and yet that they saw the movement of the sun. Not only that, the movement of the sun was even in the secular newpaper the next day.

How the Miracle of the Sun dazzled the sceptics | Catholic Herald

2. Incorruptible bodies of dead saints

Bodies of dead Catholic saints have decayed little or not at all! Critics explain this by saying that their bodies were preserved because they were buried in a dry place. But in many cases, these bodies were buried with other bodies of those who were not saints. The others were nor preserved.
My favorite is St Bernadette. Although she died 150 years ago, she looks as if she is just sleeping! See image below.

Bernadette.jpg




3. Miracle of our Lady of Guadalupe

Mary appeared to a Mexican peasant over two hundred years ago. She wrapped some roses in a tilma (a Mexican cloak made of burlap) to give to the bishop. When the bishop saw this, he saw an image of Mary painted on the tilma.

In the past century, the Catholic Church allowed experts to investigate. Artists tried to duplicate the image on other tilmas, but on burlap the paint would run together. Scientist discovered that the pigments was not any pigments on earth. What is even more amazing is that scientists magnified Mary's eyes and found that the pupils contained images of people! How could any artist 500 years ago do anything such as that?

https://magiscenter.com/the-science-or-lack-thereof-behind-juan-diegos-tilma/

4. Eucharistic miracles

There are many eucharistic miracles, but my favorite has been the miracle in Lanciano, Italy, which happened 500 years ago. the priest accidentally dropped the Eucharist on the floor while giving communion. It no longer appeared as a host but as a piece of meat. The church has had it on display since then.

This past century, the Church has allowed scientists to examine this. It found that this meat was tissue from a person who recently died, and yet this was on display for centuries!

5 Extraordinary Eucharistic Miracles that Left Physical Evidence (With Pictures!) | ChurchPOP

5. Stigmata

Many saints have had the stigmata - who have deep wounds on their hands and possibly also their feet. This points back to our Savior having nails driven through His nails and feet. The earliest stigmatic I can recall was St Francis of Assisi. The latest has been St. Padre Pio in the last century. The Catholic Church at that time thought that St Pio induced these wounds on himself. Because of this, he was forbidden to give Mass. But thousands came to see him. After he died, the wound on his hands immediately healed.

Mystery of Padre Pio´s Stigmata Analyzed by Scientist - ZENIT - English

6. Venerable Solanus Casey And St. Andre Bissette

This monk was not considered to be intelligent enough to offer Mass or to hear Confessions. So he was just given the job of a receptionist. But he talked to people as they came to visit the monastery. He prayed over them. And miracles started to happen. People all over the country came to Detroit to get healed! This happened just this past century.
Metro Detroiters share their miraculous memories of Father Solanus Casey

Also, the same thing can be said of Brother Andre in Canada.

Brother André: The Rocket Richard of miracles


7. Healings at Lourdes

In the 1800's Mary commanded a peasant girl at Lourdes to dig in the ground with her hands. Water started to seep out. Eventually, the water became a huge lake. And when people bathed in the water, many of them were healed. Even people to this day come to Lourdes for healing. The Church is very careful about declaring these to be real healings. They have a panel of doctors to examine each one. These doctors would be sceptics in most cases. If they can explain any healing with a scientific explanation, then the Church would not declare it to be an actual miracle. There are at least 70 cases that have no scientific explanation. This does not mean that the others were not miracles - it only means that it is possible that there is some other explanation. There have been those who say that they have debunked these miracle. But as with the resurrection of Christ, these debunking seem to me to stem from an anti-supernaturalistic bias (or, in case of these Catholic miracles, it could also be an anti-Catholic bias).

The Lourdes miracle that brought a Nobel prize-winning doctor to faith

This peasant girl was St Bernadette, who has the corruptible body I mentioned above.

Even if one or two of these can be explained away (which I do not think can be done), it is difficult to explain away all seven of these miracles. These miracles validate the claims of the Catholic faith. But more importantly, it attests the truth claims of Christianity. There is no other religion that can attest of miracles that can come even close to these.
I've received two miraculous healing through the Mass. Once while suffering from a really bad case of the flu, I went to Mass and upon partaking of the Eucharist was healed immediately.

The second was an leg injury which I suffered playing ball. About ten years later, something happened at Mass. The injured part began to get hot and sore. This lasted a free days and then it subsided and the injured part had returned to normal. This was also medically shown to have occurred, as well. I have had tests showing the before and after effects.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,246
2,621
✟898,018.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That’s why I stated the Cross and Resurrection should be what we point to. Not apparitions and visitations from the faithful who have died and not yet risen.

Jesus said an adulterous generation seeks a sign and then told them the only sign they would get is the sign of Jonah. Aka the Resurrection. Since Pentecost the Gospel has come with Power.

The miracles of Christ were to prove Who He is. The miracles in Acts of the Apostles was to prove the Power of the the message the Gospel.

There is no need for visions to be saved, but if I have a a vision of Christ, I have a vision and that's the truth. To have such revelations is of course a blessing, but I don't think we are to make that much out of it, more than if one asks, you tell them what you saw, experienced. It's the same with healing. You testify when it's the right time to testify.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,246
2,621
✟898,018.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is a danger to make past Christians into bigger Christians than those of today. We have the same Spirit and can do the same miracles as in the past. In worst cases there can be a kind of a cult around a Christian who saw this or that, did this or that miracle and so on. There can be a false humbleness to this: "I could never do as this nun did, she was so close to God. He was one of the great, I'm just..." We are to believe God can use us in every kind of way, to prophetize and to heal, not to make us big, but truly humble, for His glory in Christ Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,246
2,621
✟898,018.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It would probably end up looking too much like triumphalism. While we rejoice that God has shown particular mercy upon the Orthodox Church over the millenia, it is something we treasure and not something we trumpet to the world.
We don't view these miracles as proof that the Orthodox Church is the true church, we simply see them as God's Grace in a full measure, packed down and overflowing.

I always hear about the miracles happened in the Catholic church, so would be interesting to hear about miracles in the Orthodox church as well. I don't think it has to be any triumphalism. But if you feel that way, then it's probably better you don't share it.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,246
2,621
✟898,018.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Still looks like the Jesus of the movies of the 60s which were based on Renaissance art.

Jesus was a carpenter. That’s manly outdoor work chopping wood and hauling it around. All the art and movies have him as some skinny guy who today would be viewed as a barista.

Aside from that, Jesus Christ is the Risen and Glorified King of kings. See Revelation 1 for the description John gives us. It’s not a skinny guy in a white robe.

I think the 60s depictions are fairly good. I don't think normal people had that much food in those days, so they never put on weight like today. I believe most were skinny.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,786
12,269
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,198,354.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I always hear about the miracles happened in the Catholic church, so would be interesting to hear about miracles in the Orthodox church as well. I don't think it has to be any triumphalism. But if you feel that way, then it's probably better you don't share it.
Perhaps in another thread.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I realized that the abundant life was not just the warm fuzzies, it was also the cold pricklies.
I agree with the quote above. Being in communion with God in Jesus Christ is not warm fuzzies. Even if one have some warm fuzzies it need not be from God. Personal inclinations and circumstances play a role in such comfortable and pleasant feelings. At the same time feelings of abandonment and loneliness need not be from God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think the 60s depictions are fairly good. I don't think normal people had that much food in those days, so they never put on weight like today. I believe most were skinny.
The Israelites encountered a very fat king in Bashan, I think.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think the 60s depictions are fairly good. I don't think normal people had that much food in those days, so they never put on weight like today. I believe most were skinny.
I made a mistake, it wasn't Bashan, it was Moab.
He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man.Judges 3:17
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Paul wrote that men should have short hair. If you check the Roman statues and murals from that era, you might see men had their hair cut short. There were portrait paintings found in Roman Egyptian tombs. There were murals found in Pompeii and Herculaneum. Early Roman statues and bas reliefs are evidence of men with short hair styles.

The Arch of Titus in Rome shows men carrying the menorah taken from the temple in Jerusalem after Titus conquered the city in 70 AD. The men in the scene have hair above their ears and were wearing victory garlands.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,636
1,607
66
Northern uk
✟564,999.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If these are true, what purpose do they serve? The blind are not being made to see or the tide of battle turned towards the army that is fighting against injustice. Not on account of incorruptible corpses or bleeding communion hosts, etc.

It has been suggested that Catholics are turned on by such things, their faith thus strengthened.

By comparison, Protestants do not look for such events to prove to them that the promises of the Bible are trustworthy.

What purpose?

The eucharistic miracles prove that the eucharist really IS flesh and blood when christ chooses to reveal that, as several unimpeachable forensic labs have confirmed. Nor is there a possibiilty of fraud, since the edges of bread and flesh are too intimitately intermingled to replicate. Also the miracles prove they are alive with white cells beyond the explanation of science. They Should survive in vitro.

Fatima was a miracle performed at set time and place in front of 70000 witneses many of them atheist so that "all would see and believe". Then read the message, unless man repents there will be worse wars (when you see an unknown light, a worse war will begin) which happened in jan 38 - somehting like an aurora (but could nto have been) covered the northern hemisphere. Our lady also said that Russia would spread errors around the world (still only just in revolution). Demonstrating her bonafides since noone had heard of soviet russia which was way in the future then.
.
The purpose was repent.

But also to save Portugal from an atheist masonic administration aimed at "removing religion in a genaration"
Akita said that noone has heeded fatima. And the consequences will be dire.


Kibeho was to tell the rwandans that unless they change their will be so many bodies their will be none left to bury them. Less than a decade later, that is what happened. Genocide because of hate.

Guadalupe was a message to the mexican culture to turn to pro life from a culture that routinely killed children.


And so on...

I suggest you study them. The purposes largely are self revealing.

As a generaliy however it would be surprising if gods influence was not observable even with no apparent purposes, such as the incorruptibles.

Neither do catholics "need" them for faith, nor are they articles of faith. But that does not allow them to be ignored.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0