Lake of Fire

[fwGod]

That's been translated to show "hell"......but in the original language it was Abraham's bosom. "Hell" is a modern word. Like you mentioned.....Hebrew has the word Sheol (abode of the dead....like a grave)

The word "sheol" is more than just a grave. It refers to the nether world of the dead.

and Greek has Hades and Tartarus (Ghenna was an actual place near Jerusalem).

Ghenna is the garbage dump that always burned so Jesus compared it with hellfire that never ceases.

Quoting from linked article:
Only in the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV does the word hell appear in the Old Testament of the Bible, but even these versions have wide disagreements on the number of times hell occurs in the Old Testament. The Latin Vulgate mentions hell 86 times, whereas the KJV mentions hell 31 times and the NKJV mentions hell only 19 times.

All versions of the Bible except for these three, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV, reject any notion of hell occurring in the original Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament.

I checked already. If not using the word "Hell" different versions use the word "Hades" or "Sheol".

As to what it refers to would be known by the context of whether the grave, cave, or tomb itself is spoken of.
As David who believed that God would be with him when he makes his bed in Sheol. In that case David would be only speaking of the location of his physical body.

Otherwise Job asked to be hidden from suffering in Sheol. That would put him in the same place as the poor man Lazarus.
So how could Job be in Abraham's bosom.. but not King David?

Any other occurrences of scripture would fall in either of these definitions.

Also, please especially note from the comparison table that the translators of the Jewish Publication Society Bible and the Tanakh/The Complete Jewish Bible disagree with the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV by making no mention of hell whatsoever in their Bibles.
If the Jews, who are experts in their own Hebrew language, do not include hell in their Bibles, then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament.

Just mentioning the CJB to argue your case doesn't prove anything.

The Jews use the word "Ghenna" to refer to the place of torment, Hell. Even as Jesus did. And a rabbi quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia (written by a Jew) of the third century used the word "Abraham's bosom" as a location after death.

Clearly you are arguing semantics I assume for the purpose of having some measure of authority to deny the Hebrew concept of a Hell, Hades, lower region of Abraham's bosom.
Your linked article below is also arguing semantics.. therefore it cannot be accepted as exhaustive and therefore not truly accurate.

~ Chapter 16 - Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell – Gods Plan for All

 

[mkgal1]

So how could Job be in Abraham's bosom.. but not King David?

We're not informed by Scripture that Job is in "Abraham's bosom" or that King David is or isn't. Only Luke 16 uses that phrase.

Just mentioning the CJB to argue your case doesn't prove anything.

The Jews use the word "Ghenna" to refer to the place of torment, Hell. Even as Jesus did.

I'm going to side with those that understand and study the ancient Hebrew language in their interpretation of Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament over you (no offense).

And a rabbi quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia (written by a Jew) of the third century used the word "Abraham's bosom" as a location after death.

Clearly you are arguing semantics I assume for the purpose of having some measure of authority to deny the Hebrew concept of a Hell, Hades, lower region of Abraham's bosom.
Your linked article below is also arguing semantics.. therefore it cannot be accepted as exhaustive and therefore not truly accurate.

A "location after death" is - IMO - different than " a place of eternal punishment".

Yes....I AM arguing semantics....it matters. The entire Bible is "semantics" - but many people have imposed their own beliefs on to the text. You are also arguing "semantics" by stating that "hell" (especially your version of it) is written between the lines on Scriptural text - so does that mean the same rule applies (that your argument also "cannot be accepted as exhaustive and therefore not truly accurate)?

 

[Der Alte]

Nor can anyone say they were actually so.. especially by definition of a parable. The one's who fight this are the ones who need it to explain away some
other doctrine.

No! It is folks like you who try to dismiss Lazarus and the rich man as a parable because it totally destroys your no hell argument.
The story is not a parable. It is not introduced as a parable and it is not explained later to Jesus' disciples.
All undisputed parables use events from real life that the audience were familiar with and could understand, not fantasy. Somewhere sometime a widow lost money, a shepherd lost sheep, a son squandered his inheritance etc.
What is there about Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus' audience was familiar with that is "like unto the kingdom of God?"
After Lazarus and the rich man die, there is nothing that Jesus' audience had any knowledge of.
All undisputed parables refer to anonymous people; a certain man, a certain widow, a certain a landowner etc. never any named individuals
In the story of Lazarus the two persons are not anonymous, Lazarus and Abraham who is a real historical person . If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted then Jesus was a liar. Does Jesus use lies to preach the gospel?

 

[Der Alte]

I believe, if we are interpreting this parable to be about "hell".....then we are projecting our own beliefs and understandings on to the text and seeing something that's not really there.
IF this were a story about heaven and hell - then (as I posted earlier) it would mean our salvation has NOTHING to do with Jesus, the cross, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (the same with Mt 25, Sheep and Goats.... "did you visit those in prison, clothe the naked?") or any such thing. It would mean that people go to heaven by giving to the poor, and they go to hell because they didn’t give a big enough offering to a mission in Africa. That is the absolute implication if we are to take this as a literal story. IF this were about heaven.....then do we expect that all of us will be resting on Abraham's chest? No where else is this phrase used (Abraham's bosom) - so, I don't believe, it's wise to build entire doctrines on this specific text.
The image of "resting on Abraham's bosom", from what I understand, represents a figure of speech that the ancient Jews would recognize to be in reference to a banquet.....sort of like how John was reclining on Jesus at the last supper. I think it was Jeff Turner in Saints in the Arms of a Happy God who wrote, “Jesus was not threatening the wealth loving Pharisees with hell fire in the context, but was warning them that the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame- Lazarus's of the world- were going to recline on the bosom of Abraham in the spiritual feast of the kingdom of God, while they who worshiped their wealth, positions and possessions would find themselves on the outside. "
Saints in the Arms of a Happy God by Jeff Turner

If you really want to know what the Jews believed about "hell" please click on this link to my [post #189] .this thread where I quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud not some anonymous dood online

 

[Der Alte]

That's been translated to show "hell"......but in the original language it was Abraham's bosom. "Hell" is a modern word. Like you mentioned.....Hebrew has the word Sheol (abode of the dead....like a grave) and Greek has Hades and Tartarus (Ghenna was an actual place near Jerusalem).
Quoting from linked article:
Only in the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV does the word hell appear in the Old Testament of the Bible, but even these versions have wide disagreements on the number of times hell occurs in the Old Testament. The Latin Vulgate mentions hell 86 times, whereas the KJV mentions hell 31 times and the NKJV mentions hell only 19 times.
All versions of the Bible except for these three, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV, reject any notion of hell occurring in the original Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. Also, please especially note from the comparison table that the translators of the Jewish Publication Society Bible and the Tanakh/The Complete Jewish Bible disagree with the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV by making no mention of hell whatsoever in their Bibles. If the Jews, who are experts in their own Hebrew language, do not include hell in their Bibles, then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. ~ Chapter 16 - Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell – Gods Plan for All

Read this post and tell us again that the Hebrew word is mistranslated as hell or "there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew language."
May I suggest you not believe everything you read online just because it supports your assumptions/presuppositions.
I think it was Abraham Lincoln that said "Don't believe everything you read online."
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.. Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[mkgal1]

This is referring to believers, those who have repented, and are thus saved.

This is not referring to the unrepentant.

This post was in response to 1 Corinthians 3. I happen to agree with you that this was addressed to those that are "saved". It even states - in verse 15 - that the person is saved after going through the fire (so we have to cross this passage off the list of potential support of the argument for eternal torment - because it never mentions the "unrepentant" here).

 

[timothyu]

The word "sheol" is more than just a grave. It refers to the nether world of the dead.

A cemetery?

 

[timothyu]

Otherwise Job asked to be hidden from suffering in Sheol.

Are not the dead in their beds hidden from suffering? Same thing

 

[Der Alte]

A cemetery?

To learn what the Jews believed about sheol, gehinnom and hell please click on this link to my [post #225] this thread, where I quote from three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Hint before the time of Jesus Jews believed in a place of everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both sheol and Gehinnom.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/lake-of-fire.8129749/page-12#post-74295295

 

[timothyu]

Encyclopedia Judaica

I use the Encyclopaedia Judaica all the time.

 

[FineLinen]

If you really want to know what the Jews believed about "hell" please click on this link to my [post #189] .this thread where I quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud not some anonymous dood online

Wow!

 

[Der Alte]

Wow!

I will now give this post all the attention it merits.
안녕, Прощай, auf wiedersehen

 

[Der Alte]

I use the Encyclopaedia Judaica all the time.

Then you should have no problem comprehending the ancient Jewish understanding of sheol and Gehinnom.

 

[sdowney717]

That only works if you bring in your presuppositions to the text. It. does. not. state. that.
Look at HOW the poor man is able to rest on Abraham's bosom (it's not about Jesus, the cross, His death, burial and resurrection). Here's the entire parable - do YOU see Jesus in there? The cross? His resurrection? Where's the part about "if they do not believe in Jesus"? Where does it state that the poor man "accepted Jesus" and that's how he went to be at Abraham's bosom?

Luke 16 ~
19 “There was a certain rich man who clothed himself in purple and fine linen, and who feasted luxuriously every day.
20 At his gate lay a certain poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores.
21 Lazarus longed to eat the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Instead, dogs would come and lick his sores.
22 “The poor man died and was carried by angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 While being tormented in the place of the dead, he looked up and saw Abraham at a distance with Lazarus at his side.
24 He shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I'm suffering in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received good things, whereas Lazarus received terrible things. Now Lazarus is being comforted and you are in great pain.
26 Moreover, a great crevasse has been fixed between us and you. Those who wish to cross over from here to you cannot. Neither can anyone cross from there to us.'
27 "The rich man said, ‘Then I beg you, Father, send Lazarus to my father's house.
28 I have five brothers. He needs to warn them so that they don't come to this place of agony.'
29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets. They must listen to them.'
30 The rich man said, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will change their hearts and lives.'
31 Abraham said, ‘If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, then neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
​

How could it, Christ was not yet crucified. This was about people who died before Christ was crucified, not yet descended into the lower parts of the earth (hell-sheol-underworld) and he had not yet taken the captivity captive and ascended.

 

[sdowney717]

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave
Useful, and explores the meanings of jewish words for hell, grave, sheol, lake of fire, outer darkness.

 

[Der Alte]

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave
Useful, and explores the meanings of jewish words for hell, grave, sheol, lake of fire, outer darkness.

The article is very informative but there is one error. The valley of hinnom was not the Jerusalem city dump and there was no constant burning fire there. There is a valley near Jerusalem that was used for the city dump, the Kidron valley.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem

 

[Der Alte]

This post was in response to 1 Corinthians 3. I happen to agree with you that this was addressed to those that are "saved". It even states - in verse 15 - that the person is saved after going through the fire (so we have to cross this passage off the list of potential support of the argument for eternal torment - because it never mentions the "unrepentant" here).

1 Cor 3:15 is often quoted out-of-context as a proof text for universalism.

1Co 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Vs. 15 does not refer to all mankind.
This entire passage refers only to laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building vs. 9 who have built on the foundation of Jesus Christ vs. 12.
"Any man', "every man" throughout this passage refers to this same group not all mankind.
A person is not saved by works. If a person is not saved they will not be saved by their mundane works being burned up.

 

[mkgal1]

How could it, Christ was not yet crucified. This was about people who died before Christ was crucified, not yet descended into the lower parts of the earth (hell-sheol-underworld) and he had not yet taken the captivity captive and ascended.

So are you suggesting that before Jesus died on the cross rich men went to a section of torment and the poor went to the preferred section after they'd died? Because that's all Jesus had said about these men.

This was Jesus telling this parable. If the rules were soon going to change (is what I understand you to be saying) then wouldn't it only make sense for Jesus to explain these new rules while He was here ("believe in Me or else you go to hell to be tormented forever. Go tell all the nations this Good News"). Shouldn't He have been clear about this - such a critical and new message?

 

[sdowney717]

So are you suggesting that before Jesus died on the cross rich men went to a section of torment and the poor went to the preferred section after they'd died? Because that's all Jesus had said about these men.

This was Jesus telling this parable. If the rules were soon going to change (is what I understand you to be saying) then wouldn't it only make sense for Jesus to explain these new rules while He was here ("believe in Me or else you go to hell to be tormented forever. Go tell all the nations this Good News"). Shouldn't He have been clear about this - such a critical and new message?

Before Christ came and was crucified, dead and buried, and then rose again and ascended into heaven, where did men go when they died? None of them went to heaven. they went to hell, sheol, the place of the dead to wait for Christ. No one has ascended into heaven except Him who came down from heaven the Son of Man, and none of the OT saints were to be made perfect apart from us in the New Covenant.

 

[timothyu]

Shouldn't He have been clear about this - such a critical and new message?

Jesus came with the good news of the Kingdom and man turned it around to the good news of hell simply because it served his will better than losing his will to the Kingdom of God..