Lake of Fire

[timothyu]

Every early church father who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be fact.

They considered the parable to be a story from Jesus, not proof of the people in it.

 

[Der Alte]

I can't help it if you refuse to acknowledge the influence man has on the detail in scripture to create doctrine and the like. Sometimes we have to pull our heads out of the book to see what is going on in the churches which in turn effects secular understanding. How many people as an example believe there were three kings who went to a stable the night Jesus was born?

More nonsense. More cliches. If you think certain denominations are in error go address them directly rather instead of heresy hunting here and denouncing all Christianity except which ever heretical group you belong to.
So far you are batting zero on exposing any heresies.
The three kings are irrelevant, a minor misunderstanding which does not affect doctrine in any way nor does it show that anyone holds any heretical beliefs which do affect doctrine.

 

[timothyu]

So far you are batting zero on exposing any heresies.

Exposing heresies may be your thing but not mine.

 

[dqhall]

Lake of fire and a volcano of fire are not the same thing. You have never seen heaven, or hell or the lake of fire and you have never seen the face of God, yet they all exist for eternity unseen by mortal eyes. But you will see them all from one vantage point or another.

The kingdom of heaven is within. It is not a place you can travel to.

Luke 17 - WEB public domain
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation; 21 neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”

 

[timothyu]

It is not a place you can travel to.

Not yet.

 

[Der Alte]

They considered the parable to be a story from Jesus, not proof of the people in it.

More nonsense. I learned to read when FDR was president and I read 4 other languages. I do not require anything written in English to be "explained" with whatever baggage one brings to it.
The ECF writings say what they say and zero evidence that any of them did not consider the story factual.

 

[timothyu]

The ECF writings say what they say and zero evidence that any of them did not consider the story factual.

Nor can anyone say they were actually so.. especially by definition of a parable. The one's who fight this are the ones who need it to explain away some
other doctrine.

 

[Der Alte]

Exposing heresies may be your thing but not mine.

That is exactly what you are doing here, trying to "expose" heresies.

 

[timothyu]

That is exactly what you are doing here, trying to "expose" heresies.[/QUOTE

Does promoting the Gospel of the Kingdom do that?

 

[mkgal1]

That all very nice but... Where is this eternal 'consciousness' (as you call it) for man who do not qualify for the Kingdom, stated in scripture? Where is consciousness stated?

A verse that comes to mind, is that there will be "gnashing of teeth" for the unrepentant, in outer darkness. There's is no "gnashing" of teeth if one is annihilated or dead.

I believe it's in Revelation.

Would like me to find the verse?

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Does it say before or after?

But regardless... Where is this eternal 'consciousness' (as you call it) for man who do not qualify for the Kingdom, stated in scripture? Where is consciousness stated?

I agree - there is NOTHING here about "eternal consciousness" here (or *anywhere* I can find in Scripture).

I believe this fits within the framework of Jesus warning the first century people in Jerusalem of the coming destruction of their city and their Temple. The LOF (Lake of Fire) has nothing to do with a life after physical death.....or a place we go to.....

Quoting Chuck Crisco ~
The lake of fire was a symbol of judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you know where Sodom was located. By the Dead Sea. It was the giant lake region that was filled with fire and brimstone and sulfur, and was known in both the secular world and Israel’s world as the symbol of judgement:

Isaiah 1:7-10, “Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire… like a city under siege… unless the Lord Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.”In Deuteronomy 29:22-27, when he talked about Israel’s last days in the Law he said, “The whole land will be like a burning waste of salt and sulfur, nothing planted , nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.” What do we find in the book of Revelation? Chapter 11 says that the city which is spiritually called Egypt and Sodom, the place where the Lord was crucified” is Jerusalem.

The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for the place of the judgment and burning of Jerusalem in AD 70. It is the place like Sodom at the Dead Sea which burned with fire and brimstone and sulfur and salt. It was a symbol meaning just like Sodom, Jerusalem was going to be destroyed in a cauldron of inescapable fire. Which we know is exactly what happened in history as they wept and gnashed their teeth as the fires ravaged the city and hundreds of thousands died. (See appendix below).

Remember what the scriptures say about God? His mercy endures forever. It never says anywhere in the Bible that his judgment or his justice endures forever. In fact, James says, "mercy triumphs over judgment."

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water” (1 Peter 3:18–20).

We know in Hebrews 12 the author speaks of the New Jerusalem as the place of where the spirits of just men are made perfect, as if spirits are people. So it may be that Peter uses different language to say the same thing… that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.

Still not convinced? Peter also said this, "They will give an account to Him who is READY to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:5-6) Did you get that?!!! He said Jesus preached to those who were dead... people who were in Hades. So he says that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, ie, being in Hades, but that those same men would LIVE according to God in the Spirit! ~ The Healing of Hades and the End of the Lake of Fire! — A New Day Dawning
​

 

[fwGod]

I believe, if we are interpreting this parable to be about "hell".....then we are projecting our own beliefs and understandings on to the text and seeing something that's not really there.

Yes you are indeed projecting your own beliefs onto the parable.

The word "hell" isn't used here

Of the Bibles I have access to, 14 of them use the word Hell. One of them.. is the King James Version. My own uses Hades. But since I'm English and not Greek, I use Hell.
The Hebrew word is Sheol. Hades and Sheol and Hell are interchangeable words.. due to the location of such a place.

(Abraham's bosom and Hades are the terms used)....and, I don't believe the point of the parable is about "where we go when we die"

Then you ignore most of the verses in the parable that clearly indicate where the incident took place.

- instead it's about how we use our material riches/wealth and the importance of us caring for those that have less than us. Jesus names Lazarus.....gives him honor and dignity and humanity - but doesn't name the "rich man". It's an example of the reversal of the economy of God's kingdom......where the last are first.....and the rich are made poor......the humble are lifted up....etc.

How do you get all that when verse 19 just says that the rich man is involved in the parable. Verse 20 describes the poor man. The remainder of the verses 21-28 are concerning the location.

IF this were a story about heaven and hell - then (as I posted earlier) it would mean our salvation has NOTHING to do with Jesus, the cross, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

The purpose of the cross, Jesus death, burial and resurrection has everything to do with whether a person goes to heaven or hell. John 3:16 proves it.

My mention of Luke 16 has to do with where a person goes if they do not believe in Jesus. Which is very similar to where the rich man went after death because he didn't follow the teachings of Moses and repent of his sins.

(the same with Mt 25, Sheep and Goats.... "did you visit those in prison, clothe the naked?") or any such thing. It would mean that people go to heaven by giving to the poor, and they go to hell because they didn’t give a big enough offering to a mission in Africa. That is the absolute implication if we are to take this as a literal story.

That is the strangest interpretation that I've ever heard. There are plenty of verses that indicate that a person gets to heaven by believing in Jesus. One's economic status or how much a rich person is generous or not doesn't enter into salvation at all.

But it is by God's grace that we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God lest anyone should boast.
If heaven was possible by giving to the poor then anyone could say that they purchased heaven with their money. But that would be boasting.

The location at which the parable of Luke 16 is taught on is essential. And avoiding it, because of what Abraham said to the rich man in verses 27-31.

IF this were about heaven.....then do we expect that all of us will be resting on Abraham's chest? No where else is this phrase used (Abraham's bosom)

The term is not meant to be taken literally. However, bosom is closely connected with the word heart rather than chest. As in "the heart of the earth" which Jesus said that He would go when He died (Mat.12:40).

so, I don't believe, it's wise to build entire doctrines on this specific text.

Too bad that you don't actually practice what you say because you've built quite a different doctrinal application with the few scripture references that you've mentioned so far.

The image of "resting on Abraham's bosom", from what I understand, represents a figure of speech that the ancient Jews would recognize to be in reference to a banquet.....sort of like how John was reclining on Jesus at the last supper.

That's a speculation that doesn't have much to do with what Jesus taught in the parable.

I think it was Jeff Turner in Saints in the Arms of a Happy God who wrote, “Jesus was not threatening the wealth loving Pharisees with hell fire in the context,

The parable of Luke 16 doesn't indicate that the rich man is a pharisee.

but was warning them that the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame- Lazarus's of the world- were going to recline on the bosom of Abraham in the spiritual feast of the kingdom of God, while they who worshiped their wealth, positions and possessions would find themselves on the outside. "
Saints in the Arms of a Happy God by Jeff Turner

Congratulations. You've turned the topic of the entire thread and my response from where a person goes when they die if they don't believe in Jesus.

.. to the topic of wealth... doing so by one verse (19) of the entire parable. When the rest of the parable talks about torment in Hell and following the teachings of Moses (or by extension, Jesus) by repenting in order to avoid being sent to Hell.

 

[mkgal1]

Of the Bibles I have access to, 14 of them use the word Hell. One of them.. is the King James Version. My own uses Hades. But since I'm English and not Greek, I use Hell.
The Hebrew word is Sheol. Hades and Sheol and Hell are interchangeable words.. due to the location of such a place.

That's been translated to show "hell"......but in the original language it was Abraham's bosom. "Hell" is a modern word. Like you mentioned.....Hebrew has the word Sheol (abode of the dead....like a grave) and Greek has Hades and Tartarus (Ghenna was an actual place near Jerusalem).

Quoting from linked article:
Only in the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV does the word hell appear in the Old Testament of the Bible, but even these versions have wide disagreements on the number of times hell occurs in the Old Testament. The Latin Vulgate mentions hell 86 times, whereas the KJV mentions hell 31 times and the NKJV mentions hell only 19 times.

All versions of the Bible except for these three, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV, reject any notion of hell occurring in the original Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. Also, please especially note from the comparison table that the translators of the Jewish Publication Society Bible and the Tanakh/The Complete Jewish Bible disagree with the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV by making no mention of hell whatsoever in their Bibles. If the Jews, who are experts in their own Hebrew language, do not include hell in their Bibles, then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. ~ Chapter 16 - Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell – Gods Plan for All

 

[fwGod]

Nothing about it being an actual event. Parables don't work that way.

Parable - Examples and Definition of Parable

The purpose of parables is to speak and teach of spiritual things in comparison with real things of daily life. Since spiritual things are real, and things of daily life are real, then parables are speaking of real things.

When Jesus said that there was a certain man.. plus including Abraham, that should clue you that it is an actual event.

Parables do work that way or else they are a collection of philosophical sand that will collapse when compared to the natural real things of the world.

 

[timothyu]

The Latin Vulgate mentions hell 86 times, whereas the KJV mentions hell 31 times and the NKJV mentions hell only 19 times.

At that rate, eventually it will be absorbed by a multi-national, never to be heard from again.

 

[mkgal1]

IF this were a story about heaven and hell - then (as I posted earlier) it would mean our salvation has NOTHING to do with Jesus, the cross, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

The purpose of the cross, Jesus death, burial and resurrection has everything to do with whether a person goes to heaven or hell. John 3:16 proves it.

My mention of Luke 16 has to do with where a person goes if they do not believe in Jesus. Which is very similar to where the rich man went after death because he didn't follow the teachings of Moses and repent of his sins.

That only works if you bring in your presuppositions to the text. It. does. not. state. that.
Look at HOW the poor man is able to rest on Abraham's bosom (it's not about Jesus, the cross, His death, burial and resurrection). Here's the entire parable - do YOU see Jesus in there? The cross? His resurrection? Where's the part about "if they do not believe in Jesus"? Where does it state that the poor man "accepted Jesus" and that's how he went to be at Abraham's bosom?

Luke 16 ~
19 “There was a certain rich man who clothed himself in purple and fine linen, and who feasted luxuriously every day.
20 At his gate lay a certain poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores.
21 Lazarus longed to eat the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Instead, dogs would come and lick his sores.
22 “The poor man died and was carried by angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 While being tormented in the place of the dead, he looked up and saw Abraham at a distance with Lazarus at his side.
24 He shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I'm suffering in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received good things, whereas Lazarus received terrible things. Now Lazarus is being comforted and you are in great pain.
26 Moreover, a great crevasse has been fixed between us and you. Those who wish to cross over from here to you cannot. Neither can anyone cross from there to us.'
27 "The rich man said, ‘Then I beg you, Father, send Lazarus to my father's house.
28 I have five brothers. He needs to warn them so that they don't come to this place of agony.'
29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets. They must listen to them.'
30 The rich man said, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will change their hearts and lives.'
31 Abraham said, ‘If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, then neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
​

 

[mkgal1]

At that rate, eventually it will be absorbed by a multi-national, never to be heard from again.

Personally, I see that as a good thing (if that were to be so).

 

[mkgal1]

The parable of Luke 16 doesn't indicate that the rich man is a pharisee.

Luke 16:14 states that Jesus was addressing the Pharisees when He spoke this parable:

Luke 16:14 ~ The Pharisees, who were money-lovers, heard all this and sneered at Jesus.
15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves before other people, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued by people is deeply offensive to God.​

I had written that, "I think it was Jeff Turner in Saints in the Arms of a Happy God who wrote, “Jesus was not threatening the wealth loving Pharisees with hell fire in the context"

 

[mkgal1]

Congratulations. You've turned the topic of the entire thread and my response from where a person goes when they die if they don't believe in Jesus.

.. to the topic of wealth... doing so by one verse (19) of the entire parable. When the rest of the parable talks about torment in Hell and following the teachings of Moses (or by extension, Jesus) by repenting in order to avoid being sent to Hell.

Actually.....no, that's not the way I see it.

I began this thread - on the topic of the Lake of Fire - and you responded that Luke 16 is a support for the belief that "when a person dies they go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus". I see NOTHING in that particular parable about: Jesus, the cross, salvation, escape from hell.

However......the passage you provided IS about wealth....and how the things people value are found to be offensive to God (which is what Jesus said about the topic of Luke 16). You seem to be the one that's reframing the topic that Jesus was speaking on. If anything.....what Jesus was encouraging the Pharisees to do wasn't "believe in Me" He never said, "Confess and claim Me as your Savior and you will be saved".....He said, "They have Moses and the Prophets. They must listen to them" (v 29).

 

[mkgal1]

the teachings of Moses (or by extension, Jesus) by repenting in order to avoid being sent to Hell.

Where did Moses teach about hell?

 

[mkgal1]

- instead it's about how we use our material riches/wealth and the importance of us caring for those that have less than us. Jesus names Lazarus.....gives him honor and dignity and humanity - but doesn't name the "rich man". It's an example of the reversal of the economy of God's kingdom......where the last are first.....and the rich are made poor......the humble are lifted up....etc.

How do you get all that when verse 19 just says that the rich man is involved in the parable. Verse 20 describes the poor man. The remainder of the verses 21-28 are concerning the location.

Sure....the rich man IS involved in the parable....but how is he involved? If you're focused on the "location" you are going to miss Jesus' point in telling the parable.

v. 19 ~ “There was a certain rich man who clothed himself in purple and fine linen, and who feasted luxuriously every day.

v. 25 ~ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received good things, whereas Lazarus received terrible things. Now Lazarus is being comforted and you are in great pain.

v. 27 ~ "The rich man said, ‘Then I beg you, Father, send Lazarus to my father's house. ​