Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?

[Sabertooth]

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment?

Refusing Heaven is still a free-will choice. If there was no free will, there would be no Hell/Lake of Fire.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Would you like to explain what you were thinking when you tossed out this scripture?

I can try to explain this to you. In Calvinism there are people that believe we do not have freedom of choice. SO the obvious question is how can God hold people accountable if they do not know what they are doing is wrong. Jesus said: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." The scripture I quoted shows that our punishment has to do with how much we knew what we were doing was wrong. If we sin in ignorance then our punishment is light. If we sin in full knowledge of the truth then our punishment is more severe. Only God can judge us because he can take everything into consideration.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

They're all about banksterism and its effect, n'est-ce pas..?

 

[DamianWarS]

I don't recall that the Bible speaks anywhere about the banking industry.

it speaks about usury

 

[Aussie Pete]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

Let's look at the reports in the Bible. Lord Jesus did only good. Some people saw the miracles and believed. Others saw exactly the same miracles and refused to believe. Some of those were hostile to the point of wanting to kill Lord Jesus, which eventually they did. Society is no different today. God has spoken to the people of the world. He speaks still. The Creation declares God's glory. Many prefer to believe we evolved instead. The Old Testament is a revelation of God's mercy and His judgement. The same people who saw the miracles of deliverance from Egypt and God's provision in the desert rebelled against God. Israel eventually ceased to exist because they rejected God.

The condition of man's heart is not God's doing. What He has done is to offer forgiveness and a new heart through Christ. As far as God is concerned, we are all born dead. God will make us alive if we are willing. If we reject His mercy and grace, there are consequences.

No one sets out each day to do evil. "The heart is deceitful above all things". We have limited free will in that, as unbelievers, we can only choose according to our deceived heart and darkened understanding. When the gospel is preached, God's word may penetrate to bring light in the darkness. The individual will see that they are a sinner and seek forgiveness. God will always answer such a cry. The mockers, the doubters, those who slander God, who refuse to obey the gospel, will stay in their dead state. We have the opportunity in this life to accept Christ. Or reject Him. That decision has eternal consequences. If there was a "second chance", we would have no incentive to repent or to preach the gospel.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The idea that no one willingly does evil goes back, at least, to Socrates (as told by Plato). And yes, I believe you're right, Augustine picked that up, too.

We do seem to chose what appears right and good to us, even if it is evil. And if it doesn't seem good and right to us, we have a crafty way of justifying it so it will now seem good and right to us.

And, I would agree, if someone were to see evil for what it is, and the beauty and goodness of Christ for what he truly is, it is hard to imagine they would choose anything other than Christ.

This whole line of reasoning seems right to me. Does this line of reasoning justify eternal torment? I'm not sure, but I think you're on to something.

Only as a person is illuminated by the Holy Spirit will they see sin for what it is and Lord Jesus for who He is. We are born separated from God. His mercy and grace offers us reconciliation through Christ. If we reject that, there are consequences. God holds us responsible for our actions and attitudes. Only as we take responsibility for our own sin can we be saved. We may not like it, we may not understand it, we may wish it were otherwise. That does not change the reality.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

Adam and Eve where guilty of what? Choosing death.
The choice before them was gain the knowledge of good and evil and die, or continue to trust God and wait for Him to reveal the next steps. The snake just questioned this end, nothing more.

So the deceived use excuses but in morality and guilt they are still the same, hurting others to benefit their own ends.

On reading the story of Israel, though Gods intent and presence was very clear, the people where happy to party, create an idol and just do what their passions desired. Knowing the truth and seeing God does not mean the heart desires to follow, love or do good things. It is an amazing reality, take the number of people who gain real responsibility and a role to help others who are vulnerable, and rather than fulfil the responsibility they become exploitative and use their position to gratify their own selfish desires. Our hearts easily go astray, which is the problem of knowing good and evil, and not being able to keep focus on the good.

This is why we need communion with Christ and to see Him in our lives continually. He is the source of life and direction.

 

[Markie Boy]

The original question seems to lean toward universalism - we are all deceived, so nobody is really guilty, so everyone goes to Heaven?

We will be judged according to how we do and what we know - so it's not black and white. But Scripture also notes certain people will not inherit the Kingdom - murderers, adulterers, etc. - and I believe it means those that do these things and never repent.

I'm not on board with we are all deceived and nobody is responsible.

 

[Sabertooth]

We will be judged according to how we do and what we know - so it's not black and white.

And there IS grace for the ignorance of believers...! Surrender first, ask questions later.

 

[RDKirk]

Question.... no one is blocking anyone from seeking the truth. So that persons seeks and arrives at a different truth than you have arrived at. They truly feel they have done the best they can with the information given. Do you believe God will have mercy on them?

Scriptural indication is that God is merciful to the ignorant to the extent of their ignorance.

And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left -- Jonah 4

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. -- John 9

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. -- Luke 12

And stated negatively:

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. -- 2 Thessalonians

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. -- Romans 1

Paul can rely on the story of Ahab and and Jehoshaphat in this regard. Ahab pre-empted knowledge of the truth by stating up front that he did not want to hear the truth; therefore God sent out a delusion (a lying spirit) so that he would not get the truth.

Yet, Jehoshaphat had sought the truth from the beginning, and was still seeking the truth, so he inquired beyond the lying spirit and got the truth.

 

[RDKirk]

The original question seems to lean toward universalism - we are all deceived, so nobody is really guilty, so everyone goes to Heaven?

We will be judged according to how we do and what we know - so it's not black and white. But Scripture also notes certain people will not inherit the Kingdom - murderers, adulterers, etc. - and I believe it means those that do these things and never repent.

I'm not on board with we are all deceived and nobody is responsible.

The only people who would be granted absolute mercy would be those who are absolutely ignorant--such as infants. It's not that infants are innocent--no, they are born in sin as we all are since Adam. It's that they are absolutely ignorant.

There is the question, though, of those who never had a chance to hear the revealed word of God--either the promise of Abraham or the gospel of Christ--but who still looked upon Creation and acknowledged a "God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth."

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. --Psalm 19

God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. --Acts 17

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made -- Romans 1

Here is a question: Is Job saved? If so, how and why? Job did not know either the promise of Abraham or the gospel of Christ.

When we read the book of Job, we read that God never speaks to Job of any of His promises. God speaks to Job of His creation. God speaks to Job about constellations, tides, the great animals of land and sea--His creation. And that is what Job knows about God. This discourse about creation rather than promises is unique to the book of Job.

He moves mountains without their knowing it and overturns them in his anger. He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars. He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. - Job 9

That's because Job only knows God through His creation, not from Abraham or Christ. Job knows nothing about God's promises, he only knows about "God almighty, maker of heaven and earth."

This is not universalism, this is called "Inclusivism." CS Lewis was an inclusivist, as am I (apparently so was Billy Graham). This is the idea that God will show mercy to those who "walked in the light that they had."

This does not mean "all paths lead to God." I believe that someone who sees and acknowledges the true God in creation will also be discomfited by not knowing what he cannot see in creation. He may be steeped in other religions, but they will not satisfy him. His soul will remain restless with those other gods.

That is the character of those in Athens who worshiped "the Unknown God." It was the character of Job:

He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court. If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. -- Job 9

Job did not know the name of Jesus, but he knew he needed Jesus.

 

[Albion]

They're all about banksterism and its effect, n'est-ce pas..?

Non. The banking industry is much different from an individual giving a loan of his own money to someone he knows. And we all seem to be in agreement here that banks were not in existence among the Hebrews of OT times.

 

[Light of the East]

The original question seems to lean toward universalism - we are all deceived, so nobody is really guilty, so everyone goes to Heaven?

We will be judged according to how we do and what we know - so it's not black and white. But Scripture also notes certain people will not inherit the Kingdom - murderers, adulterers, etc. - and I believe it means those that do these things and never repent.

I'm not on board with we are all deceived and nobody is responsible.

I didn't say nobody was responsible. If you got that from what I wrote, I apologize. Yes, we are responsible, especially today when we have 2,000 years of the Church, of the knowledge that Christ died, etc. But even with all this, we still fight the world, the flesh, and the devil, who deceive us. Is it a proper thing to send people to eternal hell who

A.) never even heard the Gospel, which would be millions (billions?) of people who lived before Christ in pagan lands and also who lived in pagan lands before the Gospel came to them?

B.) were beaten, abused, or otherwise molested by family members or others who professed to be Christian and made those people hate the very idea of God?

C. who were deceived by slick-talking false teachers who twisted the Bible all up to make their phony religion sound like truth?

D. who were threatened with death by Christian leaders such as Emperor Justinian and put to death because they would not convert and died thinking the Christian religion had nothing at all to do with a loving God?

I suppose I could list more, but that's my point. Is salvation based on love or knowledge? Is right knowledge a prerequisite for gaining eternal life? To listen to some folks on this forum and elsewhere, one would think so. And if 100% right knowledge of God and the Christian faith is essential, then we are all in trouble. And that was my point, that the idea of sending someone into an eternal hell for not knowing or having wrong knowledge (i.e. being deceived) is a horrendous idea.

What was the plan of God from the beginning? Since His will cannot be thwarted by mere man or any creature, then His will shall come to pass. Which means that if people go to hell eternally, then it was the will of God from the beginning to create certain ones whom He foreknew would not turn to Him - ever. It means that God then would be One who would deliberately create people to suffer and would take pleasure in their suffering as a means of glorifying His power and authority.

That sounds more like Zeus than Jesus.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Non. The banking industry is much different from an individual giving a loan of his own money to someone he knows. And we all seem to be in agreement here that banks were not in existence among the Hebrews of OT times.

Not too sure about that. The basis of banking is usury, which is the same weapon of dispossesion the Jews were permitted to use against their enemies. Hence the Jewish profession of money-changing, it's essentially Babylonian Talmudic black magic, aka 'not compliant with generally accepted accounting principles'.

The parable of the talents refers to a bank specifically. (Matt 25:27) The Greek word used is 'trapezitae', where we get the word 'trapeze' artist. For the same reason that banksters until fairly recently dreaded but one thing: the bank run. Changes to the legal classification of money and electronic transfer have solved that for them.

If you want to learn about banking in the ancient world, read a book titled 'The Babylonian Woe', by David Astle. It explains (on available evidence) the financing of the rise and fall of ancient near east powers. It's a must read on this subject imho.

 

[Ricky M]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

This is part of the questions I have been asking during my crises in faith. Mine started here: Suppose I created a child, and when that child was old enough to understand I told him "make yourself at home but stay out of the cookie jar". Then one day I walk into the kitchen and find him in the cookie jar. And my response is, "screw this I'm outta here" and abandoned that child. Would they come after me and throw me in jail, or would they praise me as a loving father???

But I came to the conclusion that the question doesn't matter. We are where we are now, and how we got here is irrelevant. It's a valid question but the answer (if there is one) holds no key to the future. And given the times we are in, the lateness of the season, we must let go of these past issues and focus on that future.

I'm sure as soon as we get to 'heaven' these questions will be answered. But for now, we need to be preparing for the trials to come, lest we fall away when it all hits the fan.

 

[friend of]

I suppose I could list more, but that's my point. Is salvation based on love or knowledge? Is right knowledge a prerequisite for gaining eternal life?

Hosea 4:6 says: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejectedknowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.Dec

 

[RDKirk]

But I came to the conclusion that the question doesn't matter. We are where we are now, and how we got here is irrelevant. It's a valid question but the answer (if there is one) holds no key to the future. And given the times we are in, the lateness of the season, we must let go of these past issues and focus on that future.

This is true.

But it hits the fan for each of us every day.

 

[1213]

...
In this world, we labor under illusion and deception. Finding Christ is therefore very hard.

Finding may be hard, but I think righteous people are not deceived, sorry.

 

[zoidar]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

I think many people choose evil, knowing by conscience it's evil, silencing that voice because of egoistic reasons.

 

[Peter J Barban]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

By definition, God is fair.
By faith, God will punish unbelievers, deceived on not.
So, no problem in my view.