Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?

[Light of the East]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

 

[Dave L]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

Sometimes being deceived is part of God's punishment.

““The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (NASB95)

 

[Albion]

Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

I don't recall that the Bible speaks anywhere about the banking industry.

 

[Light of the East]

I don't recall that the Bible speaks anywhere about the banking industry.

Back in the Old Testament. You shall not charge usury.

 

[Light of the East]

Sometimes being deceived is part of God's punishment.

““The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (NASB95)

Okay. In case you missed it, I am not speaking about temporal punishments, which are both just and corrective of God. It was the punishments of my own sins which drove me to seek Christ when I came to the end of myself.

I am speaking about throwing someone into eternal, never-ending torment without any purpose at all. That is the definition of sadism, not justice. Yet some people here (many people actually) appear to be just fine with this bizarre idea of "justice."

Here is a little something to think about:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

 

[joshua 1 9]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

"47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded." (Luke 12:47)

 

[Dave L]

Okay. In case you missed it, I am not speaking about temporal punishments, which are both just and corrective of God. It was the punishments of my own sins which drove me to seek Christ when I came to the end of myself.

I am speaking about throwing someone into eternal, never-ending torment without any purpose at all. That is the definition of sadism, not justice. Yet some people here (many people actually) appear to be just fine with this bizarre idea of "justice."

Here is a little something to think about:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

I believe we need to ask why God created? Paul said “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” (Ephesians 3:9–10)

So I don't think having people freely choosing to love him is the reason. Paul also says; “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Romans 9:22–23)

So he glorifies himself through mercy and wrath which involves many of his attributes that would otherwise be unknown apart from sin. Sin is a backdrop that shows his mercy, wrath, goodness, sovereignty, love, righteousness and other attributes.

“everyone who belongs to me, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed—yes, whom I made!” (Isaiah 43:7)

“The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,” Romans 5:20 (NASB95) So in this case sin reveals and magnifies grace.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't recall that the Bible speaks anywhere about the banking industry.

Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

Leviticus 25:36
Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you.
I
Leviticus 25:37
You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

Deuteronomy 23:19
“You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

 

[Albion]

Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

Leviticus 25:36
Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you.
I
Leviticus 25:37
You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

Deuteronomy 23:19
“You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

In other words, my comment was correct. You are thinking of--and these verses refer to--loans made one person to others. NONE OF IT refers to banks.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't recall that the Bible speaks anywhere about the banking industry.

Parable of the talents.
Cleansing the temple.
Jubilees, including the super jubilee.
Beast of Revelation (arguably) - the system of multiplication of falsified debt by fraudulent loan accounting practices, the interest producing an ever-increasing debt relative to circulation, requiring ever-more drawdown to service the debt, resulting in an unrepayable sum of debt, eventual terminal collapse and total economic enslavement. Babylon sorcery just as prophesied. We're pretty much there.

 

[Albion]

Parable of the talents.
Cleansing the temple.
Jubilees, including the super jubilee..

It seems clear that a few people are posting in response to something other than what I wrote.

 

[Light of the East]

"47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded." (Luke 12:47)

Throwing Scriptures around, especially those that have nothing to do with the OP doesn't prove anything. Would you like to explain what you were thinking when you tossed out this scripture?

 

[Light of the East]

In other words, my comment was correct. You are thinking of--and these verses refer to--loans made one person to others. NONE OF IT refers to banks.

A bank is simply an organization which is owned by a person. I can't believe you made that comment. I swear, sometimes people will do anything to defend their position.

 

[section9+1]

In other words, my comment was correct. You are thinking of--and these verses refer to--loans made one person to others. NONE OF IT refers to banks.

It also tells individuals not to steal. Not referring to banks. I guess that's where they get their license to steal.

 

[Light of the East]

Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

Leviticus 25:36
Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you.
I
Leviticus 25:37
You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

Deuteronomy 23:19
“You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

And up until the Protestant Rebellion (against the utter corrupt Romish Church) the Church prohibited the taking of usury.

You can thank Calvin and Luther for the thieving system in which we live today.

 

[public hermit]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

The idea that no one willingly does evil goes back, at least, to Socrates (as told by Plato). And yes, I believe you're right, Augustine picked that up, too.

We do seem to chose what appears right and good to us, even if it is evil. And if it doesn't seem good and right to us, we have a crafty way of justifying it so it will now seem good and right to us.

And, I would agree, if someone were to see evil for what it is, and the beauty and goodness of Christ for what he truly is, it is hard to imagine they would choose anything other than Christ.

This whole line of reasoning seems right to me. Does this line of reasoning justify eternal torment? I'm not sure, but I think you're on to something.

 

[Dave-W]

In other words, my comment was correct. You are thinking of--and these verses refer to--loans made one person to others. NONE OF IT refers to banks.

Since there was not banking industry circa 1500 bc, I am not sure you could make that distinction. I see it as applying to both personal and institutional loans.

 

[Albion]

A bank is simply an organization which is owned by a person.

No, it isn't.

 

[Sabertooth]

I am speaking about throwing someone into eternal, never-ending torment without any purpose at all.

According to Romans 1:18-20, our deception (prior to Salvation) isn't innocent. It is the consequence of willfully disregarding all evidence of His existence/Glory/Supremacy/etc. We, individually, made a clear choice to reject Him from the beginning. He didn't have to offer us Amnesty, but He wanted to redeem as many as would be rescued.

 

[Dave-W]

This life is an illusion. It is not reality,

Sounds like it was taken from a Moody Blues song:

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white.
Yet we decide which is right
And which is an illusion.​