When did the 10 Commandments Begin

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

God saw us as sin because of Adam as our federal head, sinned. This is independent of what we do.

Much more now, God sees us as righteous because we received what Jesus our new federal head, did on the cross. This is again independent of our actions.

As in many things, understanding n our heart is very different from just remembering the words

No, we only bear the consequences of Adam's sin as it says, which is death..."through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned". We all sin. He has conquered death through His death and resurrection.

 

[Guojing]

No, we only bear the consequences of Adam's sin as it says, which is death..."through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned". We all sin. He has conquered death through His death and resurrection.

When you say "we all sin", what exactly do you mean. Do you mean, we "do" sin, or do we "sinned in Adam"?

In short, I am asking you, do you think Paul is using sin as a noun or a verb here?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

When you say "we all sin", what exactly do you mean. Do you mean, we "do" sin, or do we "sinned in Adam"?

In short, I am asking you, do you think Paul is using sin as a noun or a verb here?

We all sin but we are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...death. I was not in Gan Eden, were you? Paul is using sin as a noun and a verb...through Adam's sin (noun) death entered and passed to all men (so it wasn't Adam's sin that passed to all men, but death, which was the consequence of Adam's sin). The wages of sin is death...we all have sinned (verb)...

"through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned". We all sin. He has conquered death through His death and resurrection.

 

[Guojing]

We all sin but we are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...death. I was not in Gan Eden, were you? Paul is using sin as a noun and a verb...through Adam's sin (noun) death entered and passed to all men (so it wasn't Adam's sin that passed to all men, but death, which was the consequence of Adam's sin). The wages of sin is death...we all have sinned (verb)...

"through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned". We all sin. He has conquered death through His death and resurrection.

I see, as I suspected. Now I understand the origin of your interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 and why we differ.

For me, Adam committed a sin (verb) by eating the fruit, and died spiritually as a result.

But because all mankind descended from him, we inherit a sinful nature (noun) from Adam. We now sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. All these is before Christ death on the cross of course.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I see, as I suspected. Now I understand the origin of your interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 and why we differ.

For me, Adam committed a sin (verb) by eating the fruit, and died spiritually as a result.

But because all mankind descended from him, we inherit a sinful nature (noun) from Adam. We now sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. All these is before Christ death on the cross of course.

You can consider it an action, a verb, but the consequence and end result is still the same...death. To become a sinner one must sin...

 

[Hawkins]

Lets try to have a respectable discussion.

So we know that God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. My question is, did the 10 commandments exist before then. Like when did taking God's name in vain start being a sin, or when did lying and stealing start being a sin?

That's a good questions. It's possible for core commandments exist in various covenants. Mosaic covenant is just make the Law more obvious in written form for the Jews to obey. All 10 commandments except for the Sabbath remain commandments (or Christ's teachings) in the New Covenant. Don't kill, don't steal etc. remain as part of our conscience and moral code, as they are the laws written in our hearts (for us gentiles to follow).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That's a good questions. It's possible for core commandments exist in various covenants. Mosaic covenant is just make the Law more obvious in written form for the Jews to obey. All 10 commandments except for the Sabbath remain commandments (or Christ's teachings) in the New Covenant. Don't kill, don't steal etc. remain as part of our conscience and moral code, as they are the laws written in our hearts (for us gentiles to follow).

So you say only 9 commandments remain? They were all written in stone and now in our hearts. Show me where Shabbat was taken away? The first 4 are how we show we love God and the last 6 are how we show we love our neighbor. Both those commands are in the Torah in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

 

[Hawkins]

So you say only 9 commandments remain? They were all written in stone and now in our hearts. Show me where Shabbat was taken away? The first 4 are how we show we love God and the last 6 are how we show we love our neighbor. Both those commands are in the Torah in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Matthew 19:18-19 (NIV2011)
“Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Jesus didn't skip Sabbath by a mistake. What Jesus said become commands of the New Covenant.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Matthew 19:18-19 (NIV2011)
“Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Jesus didn't skip Sabbath by a mistake. What Jesus said become commands of the New Covenant.

So He left out the first 5? He was using the love your neighbor examples. Shabbat is one of the first 5. Nice try...
SHABBAT SHALOM

 

[Hawkins]

So He left out the first 5? He was using the love your neighbor examples. Shabbat is one of the first 5. Nice try...
SHABBAT SHALOM

No, you can find all but Sabbath from Christ's words.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, you can find all but Sabbath from Christ's words.

So when He and all the apostles were in the Temple and synagogues you think, without any evidence whatsoever, that they did not keep Shabbat? Again, nice try...

 

[Guojing]

You can consider it an action, a verb, but the consequence and end result is still the same...death. To become a sinner one must sin...

That is where the difference in our interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 lies in.

You believe that it is man's individual sins that made him a sinner .

For me, he does individual sins because he is already a sinner, he became a sinner because of Adam's sin.

This difference in interpretation will automatically means we will also have a different understanding of what imputed righteousness by Christ Jesus means.

But that is quite a standard difference among Christians, since many Christians do not believe in eternal security, they believe that one can sin away their salvation. You belong to this group.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Matthew 19:18-19 (NIV2011)
“Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Jesus didn't skip Sabbath by a mistake. What Jesus said become commands of the New Covenant.

Actually, Jesus was mentioning the commandments which speak to Love for your neighbour as opposed to the first 4 which speak about Love for God. So this is why the Sabbath was not mentioned in this list.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No, you can find all but Sabbath from Christ's words.

So when Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, that is not a reinforcement? When Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, that is not a reinforcement?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That is where the difference in our interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 lies in.

You believe that it is man's individual sins that made him a sinner .

For me, he does individual sins because he is already a sinner, he became a sinner because of Adam's sin.

This difference in interpretation will automatically means we will also have a different understanding of what imputed righteousness by Christ Jesus means.

But that is quite a standard difference among Christians, since many Christians do not believe in eternal security, they believe that one can sin away their salvation. You belong to this group.

Yes, that IS a difference, a very big difference! You agree with Rome's "original sin" concept. I do not.

 

[Hawkins]

So when Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, that is not a reinforcement? When Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, that is not a reinforcement?

He actually explained that He's the Lord of Sabbath to define it's scope, while the Jews accused Him of violating the Sabbath. That's why Sabbath in the Jewish concept is not correct!

 

[Hawkins]

Actually, Jesus was mentioning the commandments which speak to Love for your neighbour as opposed to the first 4 which speak about Love for God. So this is why the Sabbath was not mentioned in this list.

No, Sabbath is for the Jews to observe. The Jews actually accused Jesus of violating it. Jesus on the other hand, mentioned the first 4 commandments, which are summarized as loving God and neighbors. They are the most important commandments, but Sabbath is absent in His emphasis either.

In a nutshell, Sabbath is absent in His teaching, except for an explanation on defending where He's accused of violating it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, Sabbath is for the Jews to observe. The Jews actually accused Jesus of violating it.

He said the Sabbath was made for man (Adam)...He didn't say Jews...Yeshua never broke Shabbat

 

[Hawkins]

He said the Sabbath was made for man (Adam)...He didn't say Jews...Yeshua never broke Shabbat

He's right, but not in a Jewish conception. Today, as a sign of God's absolute sovereignty, Sabbath is literally observed by all mankind. That's why human calendar and even law specify that we need to rest in weekends.

This actually reflects why the Jews are strictly requested to observe the Sabbath, but no one else. It's because today's situation cannot be achieved without the Jews strictly abide by the Sabbath. At the same time, that's why it's said that it's the Lord defines the Sabbath but not the Jews.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

He's right, but not in a Jewish conception. Today, as a sign of God's absolute sovereignty, Sabbath is literally observed by all mankind. That's why human calendar and even law specify that we need to rest in weekends.

This actually reflects why the Jews are strictly requested to observe the Sabbath, but no one else. It's because today's situation cannot be achieved without the Jews strictly abide by the Sabbath. At the same time, that's why it's said that it's the Lord defines the Sabbath but not the Jews.

No. Sabbath is not observed by all mankind. God blessed the 7th day and sanctified it. So no other day on the weekend can be God's Sabbath. Now since God blessed and sanctified and made Holy the Sabbath day, before sin, in a perfect world, at which point did he remove the blessing from it and made it like na ordinary day?