Sabbath keeping questions

[Bob S]

You'll be all right.

You and I both know that if either of us starts a thread like that, it's just going to invite a barrage of cannonade from the perspective opposition, which is probably why you want me to be the one to start it. I'll agree to that if we can agree to ignore everyone else. Or, if you like, we could just have a private conversation. Either way's fine with me, but if you really can't stand the heat, let's not venture into the kitchen, shall we? I don't pull any punches, and time's running out in the Great Controversy.

All the objections surrounding Mrs. White's ministry have been answered in Dr. Nichol's book, "Ellen G. White And Her Critics," before I was even born. When the anti-EGW web movement was in full swing around the year 2000, I did my own research online piece-by-piece because I didn't realize how good the book was and didn't want to drive 50 miles and pay for something that might not help me, anyway. Boy, was I dumb.

Anyway it's available for free online now here, here, and here. Nothing like it's been written since (nearly 70 years) because it's that exhaustive. The new egwwritings.org website has reference works and documents, including most of the books that have been written about her (good and bad), and even most of the books she borrowed from.

I have found since I started posting many years ago that SDAs will go to any extent to cover for the prophet. I have been asking myself if an encounter with you would be any different. I decided to post just two of her"mistakes" on this forum to see just how you would react. Maybe you have read the first one, but I didn't see it in Francis Nichol's book. Notice in this vision she used her "accompanying angel" as the one showing her all that happened thus making the angel guilty of the "mistake" also. I have bolded a few places just to reinforce that the event didn't happen and added, in green, my thoughts on the subject.

The Plan of Salvation
Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {EW 149.2} According to the prophet all of the above happened after the fall of man. Jesus scurried around conversing with His father offering Himself as the fall guy Two times the Father refused, but Jesus wouldn't give up. Scripture tells us that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.
At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man. {EW 149.3}
The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel could not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; Did Jesus really need the Angels to help? Jesus is God. Does God need anyone's help in anything He does? that He would take man’s fallen nature, and His strength would not be even equal with theirs; that they would be witnesses of His humiliation and great sufferings; and that as they would witness His sufferings, and the hatred of men toward Him, they would be stirred with the deepest emotion, and through their love for Him would wish to rescue and deliver Him from His murderers; but that they must not interfere to prevent anything they should behold; and that they should act a part in His resurrection; that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan. {EW 150.1}
With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven. {EW 151.1}
Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven. And the heavenly host sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, for the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Praise and adoration were poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus; that He would consent to leave the bosom of His Father, and choose a life of suffering and anguish, and die an ignominious death to give life to others. {EW 151.2}
Said the angel, “Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for him.” Angels were so interested for man’s salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, “But,” said my accompanying angel, “that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel’s life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery.” {EW 151.3}
But the work of the angels was assigned them, to ascend and descend with strengthening balm from glory to soothe the Son of God in His sufferings, and minister unto Him. Also, their work would be to guard and keep the subjects of grace from the evil angels and the darkness constantly thrown around them by Satan. I saw that it was impossible for God to alter or change His law to save lost, perishing man; If it was impossible then how could Jesus make it possible? Her account does not make sense. therefore He suffered His beloved Son to die for man’s transgression. {EW 152.1}
Satan again rejoiced with his angels that he could, by causing man’s fall, pull down the Son of God from His exalted position. He told his angels that when Jesus should take fallen man’s nature, he could overpower Him and hinder the accomplishment of the plan of salvation. {EW 152.2}

The second issue I have with the prophet is that of tithing. Evidently, she didn't have a grasp on the Israelite tithing system. Only those who raised livestock and or crops tithed those animals and or crops. Everyone else except the Levites were exempted from the system. Jesus would not have been a tithe payer nor would Paul. There is no such thing in the new covenant that would require Christians to pay the tax yet Ellen White expounded on the subject with venom even writing that if one failed to pay it he/she would lose their eternal inheritance.

"The man who will rob God is cultivating traits of character that will cut him off from admittance into the family of God above." (6T 391.1)

"In like manner a tithe of our income is “holy unto the Lord.” The New Testament does not reenact the law of the tithe, as it does not that of the Sabbath; for the validity of both is assumed, and their deep spiritual import explained.... While we as a people are seeking faithfully to give to God the time which He has reserved as His own, shall we not also render to Him that portion of our means which He claims?"—The Review and Herald, May 16, 1882.

Francis Nichols didn't expound on many subjects, revealed in her writings, that have come under the scrutiny of the many who have studied her writings.

The two issues I have given you should make you wonder if Ellen White was a true prophet. I have to tell you the tithing issue was my first hint that there are cracks in the foundation of the Seventh-Day Adventist church. As time goes on and more of Ellen's manuscripts from the vaults of the church are revealed it will be even more evidence of her false teachings. All it takes is one person in the hierarchy, true to Jesus, to cause a shaking that will destroy the belief system. History of the church has already revealed where it almost happened several times, but was skillfully covered-up.

 

[D.A. Wright]

I have found since I started posting many years ago that SDAs will go to any extent to cover for the prophet. I have been asking myself if an encounter with you would be any different.

This appears to be some sort of a pre-emptive strike suited to provide a foundation for an "I told you so" moment. It may not even be intentional, but there it is. If I say something that's been said before, I'm "just like all the rest." This isn't my first rodeo, either.

Maybe you have read the first one,

I've read it, just never with the same point of view that you seem to have.

Might as well address this now (since it's being implied at the outset):

...but I didn't see it in Francis Nichol's book.

Francis Nichols didn't expound on many subjects, revealed in her writings, that have come under the scrutiny of the many who have studied her writings.

Okay.
This:

All the objections surrounding Mrs. White's ministry have been answered in Dr. Nichol's book, "Ellen G. White And Her Critics," before I was even born.

...is not the same as this:

All the subjects revealed in Mrs. White's writings, that have come under the scrutiny of the many who have studied her writings have been answered in Dr. Nichol's book, "Ellen G. White And Her Critics," before I was even born.

Surely you can spot the difference.

Let's move on

According to the prophet all of the above happened after the fall of man.

Mmm... Actually, according to the prophet, all of the above happened in her vision, as you so astutely observed, yourself:

Notice in this vision...

Strange things happen in prophets' visions like, perhaps, an episode illustrating the development of the plan of redemption in a manner that might be palatable to a young Victorian Era lady that God was gently grooming to become a leader of and spiritual messenger to a fledgling motley crew that would one day (very soon) become a world-wide movement designated to readying the people of the entire world for the second coming of Christ.

God meets people where they are. Instead of telling the Israelites that they must immediately free all their slaves (as our Atheist friends are always ready to remind us), He, in His amazing wisdom, simply regulated the practice toward better treatment of them. What if He had told them, simply, "Let them go. Now. I don't care how it disrupts everyone's lives." They might have about-faced and marched straight back for Egypt. In fact, it seems more than quite likely.

This is the principle portrayed in the remark which Christ, Himself made:

“There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now."
(John 16:12) NLT

Another example of this is (might as well go ahead and kill two birds with one stone):

And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
(Acts 10:28)

Now, what was it that convinced Peter that he should accept Gentiles as equals?

...but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
(Acts 10:10-16)

Wait, isn't he teaching Peter that it's okay now to eat unclean animals?

Well, according to verse 28...

God has shown me that I should not call any man (ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos) 'a human' (G0444) human being, person; humankind, people; man, husband; used of human beings in contrast to animals or deity) unholy or unclean.

...No

And there is an example from the Bible (New Testament, even) where a vision from God teaches something by an illustration that doesn't coincide with actual reality.

And this is a common type of objection to Mrs. White's ministry.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Scripture tells us that the plan of salvation was formulated before the foundation of the Earth.

No doubt. It also says that Christ was slain at or before the creation of the earth. I'm beginning to think that God, being the designer and creator of time itself, is not bound by its constraints. His plans and purposes are eternal, not old and new, the way we narrowly view things. (Actually, I've suspected that for many, many years now.) We are on a linear trajectory that amounts to little more than a plaything to if He so chooses. (I think He might even have a cosmic "undo" button--another theory I've been working on for some time. Boy, are our Atheist friends going to be red in the face when that one fully comes to light.)

By the words of His mouth, the worlds were formed. When He says something, it becomes so. Many have a narrow view of the text which declares that He cannot lie.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand and a thousand years like one day.

(2 Peter 3:8)

Did Jesus really need the Angels to help? Jesus is God. Does God need anyone's help in anything He does?

I'm afraid this is actually not rhetorical. The 2nd one is just plain ridiculous and doesn't have anything to do with the vision. The 1st one isn't much better but I'll bite for the sake of trying to be cooperative.

In the vision, Christ is comforting his distraught host with the consolation that they will not have to stand idly by and witness their beloved Commander's sufferings. He will be pleased to enlist their aid in comforting and protecting Him in His frail frame throughout His travail. In fact, the politics of the Great Controversy demand it. A touching scene, indeed. Shame it went completely over your head.

Aside from this is the simple fact that God is always involving His creatures in the administration and fellowship of His Kingdom.

If it was impossible then how could Jesus make it possible? Her account does not make sense.

Your question is literally surrounded by its own answer:

I saw that it was impossible for God to alter or change His law to save lost, perishing man; If it was impossible then how could Jesus make it possible? Her account does not make sense. therefore He suffered His beloved Son to die for man’s transgression.

Her account makes perfect sense. Your question, however, strains credulity altogether.

He didn't make it possible to change the law. He made it possible to pardon the transgressor by His undertaking of the atonement process.

The second issue I have with the prophet is that of tithing.

Why? She didn't invent it.

Evidently, she didn't have a grasp on the Israelite tithing system.

Evidently, You don't have a grasp on the universal tithing system.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
And blessed be the most high God, which has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
(Genesis 14:19-20)

This is an example of tithing before the "Israelite system."
There is more that could be said about tithing and its universal validity, but you seem to have a basic aversion to it, and I'm not sure I want to give a full Bible study on something that you seem to have decided long ago was a basic flaw in any belief system.

As far as Mrs. White's remarks on the subject, I think she probably got her impressions mainly from texts such as:

But woe to you, Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Luke 11:42)

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings.
(Malachi 3:8) (He mentions offerings here, as well. Interesting.)

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:10)

 

[Bob S]

No doubt. It also says that Christ was slain at or before the creation of the earth. I'm beginning to think that God, being the designer and creator of time itself, is not bound by its constraints. His plans and purposes are eternal, not old and new, the way we narrowly view things. (Actually, I've suspected that for many, many years now.) We are on a linear trajectory that amounts to little more than a plaything to if He so chooses. (I think He might even have a cosmic "undo" button--another theory I've been working on for some time. Boy, are our Atheist friends going to be red in the face when that one fully comes to light.)

By the words of His mouth, the worlds were formed. When He says something, it becomes so. Many have a narrow view of the text which declares that He cannot lie.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand and a thousand years like one day.

(2 Peter 3:8)



I'm afraid this is actually not rhetorical. The 2nd one is just plain ridiculous and doesn't have anything to do with the vision. The 1st one isn't much better but I'll bite for the sake of trying to be cooperative.

In the vision, Christ is comforting his distraught host with the consolation that they will not have to stand idly by and witness their beloved Commander's sufferings. He will be pleased to enlist their aid in comforting and protecting Him in His frail frame throughout His travail. In fact, the politics of the Great Controversy demand it. A touching scene, indeed. Shame it went completely over your head.

Aside from this is the simple fact that God is always involving His creatures in the administration and fellowship of His Kingdom.



Your question is literally surrounded by its own answer:



Her account makes perfect sense. Your question, however, strains credulity altogether.

He didn't make it possible to change the law. He made it possible to pardon the transgressor by His undertaking of the atonement process.



Why? She didn't invent it.



Evidently, You don't have a grasp on the universal tithing system.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
And blessed be the most high God, which has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
(Genesis 14:19-20)

This is an example of tithing before the "Israelite system."
There is more that could be said about tithing and its universal validity, but you seem to have a basic aversion to it, and I'm not sure I want to give a full Bible study on something that you seem to have decided long ago was a basic flaw in any belief system.

As far as Mrs. White's remarks on the subject, I think she probably got her impressions mainly from texts such as:

But woe to you, Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Luke 11:42)

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings.
(Malachi 3:8) (He mentions offerings here, as well. Interesting.)

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:10)

I have to give you an A for your ability to skirt the issues and come up with far-out excuses. I see that you are completely closed to a real discussion.

Your excuse for Ellen writing that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man is a hoot and ditto for tithing being universal because Abraham did it. You should know better. It doesn't say he tithe his crops or animals it says he tithed the spoils of the war he fought. Just another untrue SDA proof text.

By the way, before I stop contributing to what I thought would be meaningful debate, Ellen without a doubt made Jesus seem like He was not equal to the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in thought, in one accord, so Jesus didn't have to try three times in order t get the Father's permission. I suppose at that point Ellen didn't believe in the Trinity.

 

[D.A. Wright]

I have to give you an A for your ability to skirt the issues and come up with far-out excuses. I see that you are completely closed to a real discussion.

Your excuse for Ellen writing that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man is a hoot and ditto for tithing being universal because Abraham did it. You should know better. It doesn't say he tithe his crops or animals it says he tithed the spoils of the war he fought. Just another untrue SDA proof text.

By the way, before I stop contributing to what I thought would be meaningful debate, Ellen without a doubt made Jesus seem like He was not equal to the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in thought, in one accord, so Jesus didn't have to try three times in order t get the Father's permission. I suppose at that point Ellen didn't believe in the Trinity.

Wow. And I even went out of my way to not be insulting this time.

 

[D.A. Wright]

All right. Gloves back off again. In all my years of discussing religion in forums (at least 20 now) I have never witnessed such inconsistent arguments. You are so obsessed with covenants that you cannot, with any noticeable degree of objectivity, interpret what other forum members write.
Please assume (if this actually continues) that I am not in sympathy with your dispensationalist preoccupation whatsoever.

You should know better. It doesn't say he tithe his crops or animals it says he tithed the spoils of the war he fought.

Why would an individual that I'm proposing in an example of a universal tithing system be bound by the "livestock and produce" constraints of your imaginary "Israelite tithing system?" Jacob did the same thing, btw.

Your excuse for Ellen writing that the plan of salvation came after the fall of man is a hoot

That's it? Nice argument. Even an inconsistent argument is better than a dismissal.

By the way, before I stop contributing to what I thought would be meaningful debate,

Please. Don't do me any favors. Joke's on you I guess. I knew how this would turn out. I'm afraid you're not very unpredictable.

Ellen without a doubt made Jesus seem like He was not equal to the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in thought, in one accord, so Jesus didn't have to try three times in order t get the Father's permission.

Did you even read what I wrote?

I suppose at that point Ellen didn't believe in the Trinity.

That is quite possible. I suppose at one point Saul of Tarsus didn't believe in the Trinity, either. Christ gave Judas the power to cast out demons in His name at one point! Are you going to put your thinking cap on at any point?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in thought

Where is this found in the Bible?

 

[BobRyan]

what about churches that worship on Saturday and Sunday? Like vespers on Saturday and liturgy on Sunday?
Any thoughts?

Good question -- thanks for asking.

"The 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 - a 24 hour period of sacred rest and worship
Lev 23:2-3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of holy convocation
Is 58:13 - a day to avoid all secular activity.

Not merely "a one hour church service" which we do on Wednesday or Sunday or Friday or any day of the week.

If you are suggesting that some churches are keeping both the 7th day and the first day as two 24 hour periods holy to the Lord -- I would love to hear more about that.