Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Dave L]

Hi, you are being very confusing here. How can someone have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not have the gifts of the Spirit of God? Not everyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since they do not manifest the gifts thereof. There is a difference form being born of the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said this:
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

So the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something you also sometimes have to ask for not all receive it when being born again as eg Acts 11:21 .

The filling of the Holy Spirit today and its gifts are real and not some remnant of the past. There is no scriptural basis for saying they not longer exist. There is no scripture that explains that God has changed his modus operandi . The the affirmation that there is no more gifts of the Spirit and no more Apostles and/or prophets is the greatest mistake of the reformation movement has made. I is a lie from the devil to disarm believers from tools that can be used against him.

I have been under and Apostolic ministry and have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit witnessed the gifts of speaking in tongues, prophecy and the rest.

I therefore urge you not to make this addition to the word of God and conclusion about the Acts church. It is the prefect model or blueprint for the church today. If you would seek it enough you would find it:
Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
That is what it took for me for years and then I finally found it.

I say this with no ill feelings, God bless.

All believers have the Holy Spirit, faith is a fruit thereof. But the gifts of the Spirit were temporal signs of an Apostle. They ended with the Apostles.

 

[topher694]

Ok, I say something does not exist. You say it does. You need to prove it does.

The hypocrisy of this statement and others is staggering.

 

[Dave L]

The hypocrisy of this statement and others is staggering.

Shouldn't someone saying something exists prove it from scripture. Try telling a banker you have millions of dollars in his bank without verifying it.

 

[Johan_1988]

All believers have the Holy Spirit, faith is a fruit thereof. But the gifts of the Spirit were temporal signs of an Apostle. They ended with the Apostles.

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit and not a fruit:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

If the signs stopped with the first apostles why are people still being healed, delivered of evil spirits in the name of Jesus Christ and speaking in tongues ( I know there are some fake ones too). I used to be a skeptic as well, but God opened my eyes it's all 100% true and you have not answered my question to where it is in scripture that God has stopped signs and the Apostolic ministry?

 

[Dave L]

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit and not a fruit:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

If the signs stopped with the first apostles why are people still being healed, delivered of evil spirits in the name of Jesus Christ and speaking in tongues ( I know there are some fake ones too). I used to be a skeptic as well, but God opened my eyes it's all 100% true and you have not answered my question to where it is in scripture that God has stopped signs and the Apostolic ministry?

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” Galatians 5:22 (NASB95)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

But Jesus only baptized the 12 with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Paul later.

This belief about "the gifts died out with the 12 apostles"... do you even know where that comes from? It's not written in any epilogue to the book of Acts or Revelation.... It actually comes from John Calvin and was used as a defense against the claims of a Catholic monk apologist who cited the lack of miracles on the side of the Reformers as piece of evidence to undermine their case. Calvin essentially took one opinion or hypothesis of saint Augustine's and dogmatized it.
Anyway your viewpoint is not scriptural or historical. It is just an opinion or interpretation used to justify a theology that you believe "is biblical" or otherwise correct.


“Augustine was probably the first to theorize cessation — that until an outbreak of the miraculous in his church led him to a change his thinking. These miracles included healings of blindness, cancer, and raising the dead. Not bad for a skeptic.

Justin Martyr, in his ‘Dialogue with Trypho’ wrote, “For the prophetic gifts remain with us even to the present time…it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.”

Tertullian likewise challenges Marcion on the merits of the gifts.

Irenaeus, in ‘Against Heresies’ writes, “Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions and utter prophetic expressions. Others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years.”

Origen testifies, “For by these means we too have seen many persons freed from grievous calamities, and from other distractions of mind, and from madness, and countless other ills, which could not be cured neither by men nor devils.”

Cyprian writes, “For beside the visions of the night, even in the daytime, innocent children among us are filled with the Holy Spirit, seeing in an ecstasy with their eyes, and hearing and speaking those things whereby the Lord consents to warn and instruct us.”

Gregory the Great wrote of raising the dead, healings and a person saving a drowning youth by walking on water!



An inconvenient history for cessationism

 

[Dave L]

This belief about "the gifts died out with the 12 apostles"... do you even know where that comes from? It's not written in any epilogue to the book of Acts or Revelation.... It actually comes from John Calvin and was used as a defense against the claims of a Catholic monk apologist who cited the lack of miracles on the side of the Reformers as piece of evidence to undermine their case. Calvin essentially took one opinion or hypothesis of saint Augustine's and dogmatized it.
Anyway your viewpoint is not scriptural or historical. It is just an opinion or interpretation used to justify a theology that you believe "is biblical" or otherwise correct.


“Augustine was probably the first to theorize cessation — that until an outbreak of the miraculous in his church led him to a change his thinking. These miracles included healings of blindness, cancer, and raising the dead. Not bad for a skeptic.

Justin Martyr, in his ‘Dialogue with Trypho’ wrote, “For the prophetic gifts remain with us even to the present time…it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.”

Tertullian likewise challenges Marcion on the merits of the gifts.

Irenaeus, in ‘Against Heresies’ writes, “Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions and utter prophetic expressions. Others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years.”

Origen testifies, “For by these means we too have seen many persons freed from grievous calamities, and from other distractions of mind, and from madness, and countless other ills, which could not be cured neither by men nor devils.”

Cyprian writes, “For beside the visions of the night, even in the daytime, innocent children among us are filled with the Holy Spirit, seeing in an ecstasy with their eyes, and hearing and speaking those things whereby the Lord consents to warn and instruct us.”

Gregory the Great wrote of raising the dead, healings and a person saving a drowning youth by walking on water!



An inconvenient history for cessationism

Thanks, I'll look into this. But scripture says the gifts ceased with the apostles with or without solid church figures also saying so. All we have from history is "hearsay". No direct claims by those supposed to have the gifts. Only rumors. Search your heart out, it is not there.

 

[Strong in Him]

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” Romans 8:9 (NASB95)

What's that got to do with Matthew 3, and John the Baptist telling the crowd that Jesus would baptise them with His Spirit?

 

[topher694]

Shouldn't someone saying something exists prove it from scripture. Try telling a banker you have millions of dollars in his bank without verifying it.

It DOES exist in scripture. Even Cessationists know this otherwise they wouldn't be Cessationists, they'd be neverhappenedists. The question then becomes not if they exist, but if they still operate, which, by your very own logic falls to you to prove. Which you refuse to do... Hence, hypocrite.

If I have a bank statement from the bank that says I have a million dollars, but they claim I don't it is up to them to prove that the statement is wrong, not me.

 

[Dave L]

It DOES exist in scripture. Even Cessationists know this otherwise they wouldn't be Cessationists, they'd be neverhappenedists. The question then becomes not if they exist, but if they still operate, which, by your very own logic falls to you to prove. Which you refuse to do... Hence, hypocrite.

If I have a bank statement from the bank that says I have a million dollars, but they claim I don't it is up to them to prove that the statement is wrong, not me.

If it exists, prove it.

 

[Dave L]

What's that got to do with Matthew 3, and John the Baptist telling the crowd that Jesus would baptise them with His Spirit?

I'm not sure of the setting for the reply without digging it up. But it seemed appropriate.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Thanks, I'll look into this. But scripture says the gifts ceased with the apostles with or without solid church figures also saying so. All we have from history is "hearsay". No direct claims by those supposed to have the gifts. Only rumors. Search your heart out, it is not there.

Lies...it does not say that anywhere in the bible.

 

[topher694]

If it exists, prove it.

Wait are you trying to say the Baptism of the Holy Spirit doesn't exist in the Bible?

 

[Dave L]

Lies...it does not say that anywhere in the bible.

It does say so. How? because it only mentions the Baptism with the gifts coming through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture if you say it came in any other way. If it did, prove it from scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Wait are you trying to say the Baptism of the Holy Spirit doesn't exist in the Bible?

It is in the Bible, but ended with the Apostles.

 

[topher694]

It is in the Bible, but ended with the Apostles.

Prove it

 

[Dave L]

Prove it

It only mentions the Baptism with the gifts coming through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture if you say it came in any other way. If it did, prove it from scripture.

 

[topher694]

It only mentions the Baptism with the gifts coming through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture if you say it came in any other way. If it did, prove it from scripture.

I did in another thread.

 

[Heart2Soul]

It does say so. How? because it only mentions the Baptism with the gifts coming through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture if you say it came in any other way. If it did, prove it from scripture.

Then Paul and Perer

 

[Heart2Soul]

It does say so. How? because it only mentions the Baptism with the gifts coming through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You add to scripture if you say it came in any other way. If it did, prove it from scripture.

Then Paul and Peter are both false teachers since they both continued to preach gifts of the Holy Spirit and baptism of the Holy Spirit.
How do you reconcile this?