Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Charlie24]

Of course it can be proved. It is history. And, by the way, the arguments that Continuationists use in order to try to get around what they know the historical record shows are just absurd. It is what it is. And it is not that Cessationists WANT to conclude what they do; it is just that the facts are what they are.

The history you refer to is not the living word of God. Without which, no truth can be found.

 

[~Zao~]

Of course it can be proved. It is history. And, by the way, the arguments that Continuationists use in order to try to get around what they know the historical record shows are just absurd. It is what it is. And it is not that Cessationists WANT to conclude what they do; it is just that the facts are what they are.

Being 'is what it is’ can only be proved experientially. Manna ceased but also replaced. Much to consider there but certainly not worth agueing over. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Charlie24]

A note on Cessation;

According to Curtis Edwards, Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery, Voodoo was the religion of African slaves. And even before slavery they would voodoo any religion they took part in. They had voodoo Catholicism for the main part.

The after coming to Haitian and American shores, they voodooed what ever religion they encountered. Voodoo Methodism and voodoo Baptist churches, were common in Louisiana.

Wm. Seymour tried to voodoo the Church of God (Anderson) but got expelled.Shortly thereafter, he voodooed his Wesley Methodism at Azusa street in Los Angeles. He thought voodoo tongues were the same as Bible tongues. This became the Assemblies of God denomination with the Oneness United Pentecostal Church splitting off from them over their antitrinitarian views.

Curtis Edwards

Edwards, Curtis. Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery . Kindle Edition.

Also Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

Ohhhh man, you've got the tonguitis, you may need a exorcism or something to get out of this. lol

 

[Albion]

The history you refer to is not the living word of God. Without which, no truth can be found.

Yeh, I have heard that one, too. However, the word of God does not operate in fantasy land. When God says that something has happened, it happened. And when he says that something WILL happen, it will. It cannot be that God is wrong about such things, but that is what a Continuationist is saying when claiming that something that we know for a fact happened...actually did not. In this case, it is the absence of the gifts during most of Christian history.

 

[Albion]

Being 'is what it is’ can only be proved experientially.

And so it has been. That was part of my point. We, the church, experienced something. Cessationists are doing nothing but admitting it.

 

[Charlie24]

Yeh, I have heard that one, too. However, the word of God does not operate in fantasy land. When God says that something has happened, it happened. And when he says that something WILL happen, it will. It cannot be that God is wrong about such things, but that is what a Continuationist is saying when claiming that something that we know for a fact happened...actually did not. In this case, it is the absence of the gifts during most of Christian history.

Yes, that is another good point. But the fact remains, only biblical fact can solve it. So the argument is a lame duck.

 

[Heart2Soul]

If you say something exists and say it doesn't, it's your challenge to produce evidence that it exists.

I have debated with you on the Christianity Board over this same topic. Your argument style has not changed one bit.
You don't provide scripture, use opinions of others to support your view (pagan pentecostalism), and challenge everyone else to provide scripture and when they do you refuse to acknowledge those scriptures as applying to your argument.

And you have pushed this topic on forums for over 2 years now...mostly arguing that the Holy Spirit gifts and tongues have ceased. You really have an issue with the Holy Spirit or so it seems.

I am outta here. dead end street.

 

[Albion]

Yes, that is another good point. But the fact remains, only biblical fact can solve it. So the argument is a lame duck.

I'm sorry but that is wrong. If you think that the Bible says, unequivocally, that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were commonplace in the early days will continue on unchanged until the Second Coming...but then also know that for most of Christian history that was NOT the case, your interpretation of "Biblical fact" is in error. And that in no way means that the Bible is wrong itself.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm sorry but that is wrong. If you think that the Bible says, unequivocally, that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were commonplace in the early days will continue on unchanged until the Second Coming...but then also know that for most of Christian history that was NOT the case, your interpretation of "Biblical fact" is in error. And that in no way means that the Bible is wrong itself.

OK. Show me the scripture where Paul was referring to the canon of scripture replacing the gifts. That would mean the gifts are no longer needed. Or show me any scripture that declares the gifts are no longer in force.

If you can't, I don't expect to hear from you anymore on this subject.

 

[~Zao~]

I believe that the forms of gifts are that which bears on transformation, which is what I meant that manna ceased but was replaced. Conformity to speaking in tongues I have seen practised with little kids in Pentecostal churches, so I know that it can be a learning conforming to practise. I have also experienced speaking in tongues in my direst moments when I knew not what to pray but the HS took over.

The intent of the Holy Spirit, imho, is that of leading not by the letter of course. So what was seen as signs is not seen outwardly anymore but rather innerwardly. That form of gifts is miraculous to the beholder because of the work of the HS upon hearts of stone made into hearts of flesh. Signs outward replaced by signs inward that are the experience of the individual, which is the form of leading that the HS takes rather than on the nation itself, or in our times, the church as a whole.

 

[Monna]

Which question? Which thought?

So the question that arose in my mind concerns Matthew 28:19
Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,...
Which baptism is Jesus refering to? Why would He send them out to practise John's (water) baptism, when this was NOT His baptism, and when very shortly before this command, He had told them they would be shortly baptised with the Holy Spirit ... and which is exactly was John said would be different about Jesus' baptism. Surely, He would send His followers out to baptize with HIS baptism, rather than cousin John's ...? (and once more noting John the Apostle's clear statement that Jesus Himself did not baptize with water.)

If so, and since this commission was not only for the 12 apostles, then surely it was not only apostles who could baptize with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

I have debated with you on the Christianity Board over this same topic. Your argument style has not changed one bit.
You don't provide scripture, use opinions of others to support your view (pagan pentecostalism), and challenge everyone else to provide scripture and when they do you refuse to acknowledge those scriptures as applying to your argument.

And you have pushed this topic on forums for over 2 years now...mostly arguing that the Holy Spirit gifts and tongues have ceased. You really have an issue with the Holy Spirit or so it seems.

I am outta here. dead end street.

Ok, I say something does not exist. You say it does. You need to prove it does.

 

[Dave L]

Ohhhh man, you've got the tonguitis, you may need a exorcism or something to get out of this. lol

Read Pentecostal history on the web. Wm. Seymour, voodoo, tongues, Azua street etc.

 

[Albion]

OK. Show me the scripture where Paul was referring to the canon of scripture replacing the gifts. That would mean the gifts are no longer needed. Or show me any scripture that declares the gifts are no longer in force.

But don't you see if these gifts are not part of the life of the church, that speaks for itself? And is not in contradiction to anything in Scripture?

That they were no longer needed in the way that the early church needed them is beside the point, although that is widely considered to be the reason that the phenomenon gradually died out.

 

[Monna]

Ok, I say something does not exist. You say it does. You need to prove it does.

I get a sense of déja vu here. Try your logic with the existence of God. Just because you say something doesn't exist, doesn't make it so. And with the existence of God, just stating that He does, does not cause it to be true.

God is not limited by what is stated in what men decided (but not in total agreement) was the complete canon of Scripture. He is free to do what He feels is righteous and needful to achieve His end, in His good time. All over the world, the Spirit is moving. God is active - through the Holy Spirit - continuously.

Perhaps the key to the disagreement in this thread is one of neatly defining and agreeing on what the "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is. Or go a step further back ... what is baptism as a ritual? Where did it come from? Was it ever practised in the OT, and if so in what context?

The disciples, including the apostles, even after the resurrection continued to have total misconceptions of the Messiah, holding very hard to the image of an earthly King of the Jews in the model of David; they totally missed the OT scriptures about the resurrection, because of their misconceptions. And it was only grudgingly that they accepted the Pharisee Saul/Paul as an apostle "born out of season." Do not limit God by saying He does not or cannot do a thing, especially as we all may have different ideas about what this "thing" actually is (from God's perspective).

Jesus said, "Without Me you can do nothing."
He also said, "With God, all things are possible."

I cannot believe therefore that God CANNOT baptise with the Holy Spirit today.

 

[Dave L]

I get a sense of déja vu here. Try your logic with the existence of God. Just because you say something doesn't exist, doesn't make it so. And with the existence of God, just stating that He does, does not cause it to be true.

God is not limited by what is stated in what men decided (but not in total agreement) was the complete canon of Scripture. He is free to do what He feels is righteous and needful to achieve His end, in His good time. All over the world, the Spirit is moving. God is active - through the Holy Spirit - continuously.

Perhaps the key to the disagreement in this thread is one of neatly defining and agreeing on what the "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is. Or go a step further back ... what is baptism as a ritual? Where did it come from? Was it ever practised in the OT, and if so in what context?

The disciples, including the apostles, even after the resurrection continued to have total misconceptions of the Messiah, holding very hard to the image of an earthly King of the Jews in the model of David; they totally missed the OT scriptures about the resurrection, because of their misconceptions. And it was only grudgingly that they accepted the Pharisee Saul/Paul as an apostle "born out of season." Do not limit God by saying He does not or cannot do a thing, especially as we all may have different ideas about what this "thing" actually is (from God's perspective).

Jesus said, "Without Me you can do nothing."
He also said, "With God, all things are possible."

I cannot believe therefore that God CANNOT baptise with the Holy Spirit today.

We are talking about proving claims from scripture.

 

[Johan_1988]

All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In OT times the Spirit was with the born again, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. But in Acts we see two distinct groups. All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but only those who were in the two outpourings, or those whom the Apostles laid hands on, had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues.

Hi, you are being very confusing here. How can someone have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not have the gifts of the Spirit of God? Not everyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since they do not manifest the gifts thereof. There is a difference form being born of the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said this:
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

So the receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something you also sometimes have to ask for not all receive it when being born again as eg Acts 11:21 .

The filling of the Holy Spirit today and its gifts are real and not some remnant of the past. There is no scriptural basis for saying they not longer exist. There is no scripture that explains that God has changed his modus operandi . The the affirmation that there is no more gifts of the Spirit and no more Apostles and/or prophets is the greatest mistake of the reformation movement has made. I is a lie from the devil to disarm believers from tools that can be used against him.

I have been under and Apostolic ministry and have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit witnessed the gifts of speaking in tongues, prophecy and the rest.

I therefore urge you not to make this addition to the word of God and conclusion about the Acts church. It is the prefect model or blueprint for the church today. If you would seek it enough you would find it:
Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
That is what it took for me for years and then I finally found it.

I say this with no ill feelings, God bless.

 

[Johan_1988]

Nowhere does it say that the only sign of baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues, and that there will be no need for this after the Apostles have died.

The prophecy in Joel said "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people." The one in Ezekiel said that God would put his Spirit in his people, and Jeremiah sad the New Covenant would be that all people would know the Lord, Jeremiah 31:31, and his word would be in them.

I agree with you in the KJV it says "on all flesh" meaning everyone will have the opportunity to receive it..

 

[Pavel Mosko]

We have no proof from scripture the gifts came in any other way than through the 12 apostles' hands, or beyond the two outpourings. Paul told the Romans, “For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;” Romans 1:11 (NASB95) It was not available otherwise.

“God also testifying with them [the Apostles], both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.” Hebrews 2:4 (NASB95)

Well the entire group of 72 apostles healed the sick and cast out demons per Luke 10:1-24.

 

[Dave L]

Well the entire group of 72 apostles healed the sick and cast out demons per Luke 10:1-24.

But Jesus only baptized the 12 with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Paul later.