Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Charlie24]

But only an apostle could impart the gifts beyond the two outpourings. You need to align other scriptures with this, then draw conclusions.

There were 12 original apostles, Paul became the 13th. Barnabas was also referred to as an apostle at least twice in scripture. How many more I don't know.

Just because the scripture is silent on the giving of the baptism of the holy Spirit doesn't mean it didn't continue.

 

[Dave L]

There were 12 original apostles, Paul became the 13th. Barnabas was also referred to as an apostle at least twice in scripture. How many more I don't know.

Just because the scripture is silent on the giving of the baptism of the holy Spirit doesn't mean it didn't continue.

We can only go by what scripture says. We know that besides the two outpourings, only an Apostle could distribute the gifts. We have no mention of any other way = no faith possible in the matter without scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

We can only go by what scripture says. We know that besides the two outpourings, only an Apostle could distribute the gifts. We have no mention of any other way = no faith possible in the matter without scripture.

That's to convenient for you Dave! Here in the south we call that a cop out.

You yourself are grasping in the wind. If you want to declare victory in truth on this subject, prove that Paul was referring to the cannon of scriptures. But you can't!

So, I would suggest admitting you don't have concrete proof instead of telling everyone else to present concrete proof.

 

[Dave L]

That's to convenient for you Dave! Here in the south we call that a cop out.

You yourself are grasping in the wind. If you want to declare victory in truth on this subject, prove that Paul was referring to the cannon of scriptures. But you can't!

So, I would suggest admitting you don't have concrete proof instead of telling everyone else to present concrete proof.

If you say something exists and say it doesn't, it's your challenge to produce evidence that it exists.

 

[Charlie24]

If you say something exists and say it doesn't, it's your challenge to produce evidence that it exists.

Well, you wrote the OP saying the gifts are fake and not in existence today. I challenge you to prove it. But then again, YOU CAN'T. So come down off the high horse and admit it.

 

[Dave L]

Well, you wrote the OP saying the gifts are fake and not in existence today. I challenge you to prove it. But then again, YOU CAN'T. So come down off the high horse and admit it.

Do you speak in tongues?

 

[Charlie24]

Do you speak in tongues?

No, I don't.

 

[Dave L]

No, I don't.

good.

 

[Albion]

Well, you wrote the OP saying the gifts are fake and not in existence today. I challenge you to prove it. But then again, YOU CAN'T. So come down off the high horse and admit it.

Flapping ones tongue and making sounds proves nothing, Charlie. Anyone can do it and many who do are so obviously not speaking anything real. So that is where we stand unless someone can show that these are genuine (hint hint). And, by the way, how come there are all sorts of tongues-speakers but hardly any Pentecostal Christian has the gift of healing or the ability to perform a miracle? They're all part of the same package.

 

[Charlie24]

good.

I think you had a very bad experience in your former church with all this and I'm sorry you went through that. Let's talk about something else and let this go.

 

[Dave L]

I think you had a very bad experience in your former church with all this and I'm sorry you went through that. Let's talk about something else and let this go.

We should begin a new thread on the Cessation of tongues and prophecy. I can prove from scripture in several ways the gifts ended with the apostles who distributed them. Also show the differences between real tongues and today's attempts to mimic them.

 

[Charlie24]

Flapping ones tongue and making sounds proves nothing, Charlie. Anyone can do it and many who do are so obviously not speaking anything real. So that is where we stand unless someone can show that these are genuine (hint hint). And, by the way, how come there are all sorts of tongues-speakers but hardly any Pentecostal Christian has the gift of healing or the ability to perform a miracle? They're all part of the same package.

I'm not an advocate for the Pentecostals or the speaking of tongues. I seek truth from the scripture. In this particular subject their is no proof either way, only opinions. I wanted to bring that out for future conversations. If you take offence at my tone at times, I will apologize in advance.

 

[Charlie24]

We should begin a new thread on the Cessation of tongues and prophecy. I can prove from scripture in several ways the gifts ended with the apostles who distributed them. Also show the differences between real tongues and today's attempts to mimic them.

Oh man, please don't! lol

 

[Dave L]

Oh man, please don't! lol

You need to study "cessationism" on your own. Study both sides in an internet search. I add to the basic cessationist view with new material.

 

[Albion]

I'm not an advocate for the Pentecostals or the speaking of tongues. I seek truth from the scripture. In this particular subject their is no proof either way, only opinions. I wanted to bring that out for future conversations. If you take offence at my tone at times, I will apologize in advance.

I don't take offense, but it is not quite true that there is no proof one way or the other. Tongues did cease. We know for a fact that these miraculous gifts were commonplace in the early days and played an important role in bringing the world to the Gospel, but we also know that, in time, they ceased to be a part of the life of the Church.

So we do know that the gifts ceased, except for the technical point that most people are willing to make, that God seems to have gifted an occasional person here and there in later times for reasons known only to him.

That is the primary reason that people are Cessationists, so-called. Because they know that there was a cessation! No special theological mumbo-jumbo is needed in addition to explain it.

 

[Charlie24]

You need to study "cessationism" on your own. Study both sides in an internet search. I add to the basic cessationist view with new material.

I've studied it somewhat. It's not really my favorite study though. I study mostly on the arguments concerning salvation. Guess that's the Baptist raising coming out.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't take offense, but it is not quite true that there is no proof one way or the other. Tongues did cease. We know for a fact that these miraculous gifts were commonplace in the early days and played an important role in bringing the world to the Gospel, but we also know that, in time, they ceased to be a part of the life of the Church.

So we do know that the gifts ceased, except for the technical point that most people are willing to make, that God seems to have gifted an occasional person here and there in later times for reasons known only to him.

That is the primary reason that people are Cessationists, so-called. Because they know that there was a cessation! No special theological mumbo-jumbo is needed in addition to explain it.

The bottom line is that no one can prove it. We could talk opinions all day, but it proves nothing. This is not my first rodeo with tongues. I've been up, down, sideways and any other way you can think arguing this subject. Paul simply did not give us enough info to pour any concrete.

 

[Dave L]

I've studied it somewhat. It's not really my favorite study though. I study mostly on the arguments concerning salvation. Guess that's the Baptist raising coming out.

I'm close to the Reformed Baptist position.

 

[Albion]

The bottom line is that no one can prove it.

Of course it can be proved. It is history. And, by the way, the arguments that Continuationists use in order to try to get around what they know the historical record shows are just absurd. It is what it is. And it is not that Cessationists WANT to conclude what they do; it is just that the facts are what they are.

 

[Dave L]

A note on Cessation;

According to Curtis Edwards, Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery, Voodoo was the religion of African slaves. And even before slavery they would voodoo any religion they took part in. They had voodoo Catholicism for the main part.

The after coming to Haitian and American shores, they voodooed what ever religion they encountered. Voodoo Methodism and voodoo Baptist churches, were common in Louisiana.

Wm. Seymour tried to voodoo the Church of God (Anderson) but got expelled.Shortly thereafter, he voodooed his Wesley Methodism at Azusa street in Los Angeles. He thought voodoo tongues were the same as Bible tongues. This became the Assemblies of God denomination with the Oneness United Pentecostal Church splitting off from them over their antitrinitarian views.

Curtis Edwards

Edwards, Curtis. Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery . Kindle Edition.

Also Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction