When did the 10 Commandments Begin

[PROPHECYKID]

Lets try to have a respectable discussion.

So we know that God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. My question is, did the 10 commandments exist before then. Like when did taking God's name in vain start being a sin, or when did lying and stealing start being a sin?

 

[Greengardener]

I love the concept of respect. One place to look, Phophecykid, would be to a verse where God comments to Isaac about Abraham, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws." (Gen 26.5) Abraham was pre-Moses. Apparently Moses took on the task of committing the stories from the beginning to written form.

It's hard for me to imagine a time in God's created world where there was no law. It's hard for me not to think that God didn't take time with His people from the beginning to tell them what would work and what wouldn't, even though we don't have it written down in the Adam and Eve story other than a few places we can speculate. One was that God rested the Seventh Day. The other was that God may have had a habit of walking to visit them in the cool of the evening (or maybe it was just the one time, or maybe it was a Sabbath tradition). I can't pin it down further than that in all good conscience.

But on the other hand, I personally can't see the commandments as being offered as anything other than "Best Practices." I'm not downgrading the word Commandment and the intention of obedience by saying it that way, it's just that words are limiting to describe the thought. It's like shifting the thought from "break these commandments and I'll get aggravated and smite you" to a very different intention, "break these and you'll bring harm to yourself, even to the point of My turning away from you." Anything God tells us should have the strength of a commandment because His love for us is sure and His plans for us are good. I can't imagine a time when lying and stealing were not known to be wrong.

 

[Dave L]

Lets try to have a respectable discussion.

So we know that God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. My question is, did the 10 commandments exist before then. Like when did taking God's name in vain start being a sin, or when did lying and stealing start being a sin?

No Ten Commandments before Sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I love the concept of respect. One place to look, Phophecykid, would be to a verse where God comments to Isaac about Abraham, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws." (Gen 26.5) Abraham was pre-Moses. Apparently Moses took on the task of committing the stories from the beginning to written form.

It's hard for me to imagine a time in God's created world where there was no law. It's hard for me not to think that God didn't take time with His people from the beginning to tell them what would work and what wouldn't, even though we don't have it written down in the Adam and Eve story other than a few places we can speculate. One was that God rested the Seventh Day. The other was that God may have had a habit of walking to visit them in the cool of the evening (or maybe it was just the one time, or maybe it was a Sabbath tradition). I can't pin it down further than that in all good conscience.

But on the other hand, I personally can't see the commandments as being offered as anything other than "Best Practices." I'm not downgrading the word Commandment and the intention of obedience by saying it that way, it's just that words are limiting to describe the thought. It's like shifting the thought from "break these commandments and I'll get aggravated and smite you" to a very different intention, "break these and you'll bring harm to yourself, even to the point of My turning away from you." Anything God tells us should have the strength of a commandment because His love for us is sure and His plans for us are good. I can't imagine a time when lying and stealing were not known to be wrong.

That actually caused me to think of another question and I agree with at least most of what you said. When God gave the 10 commandments, would it have been new information to the Israelites? Would it be stuff they would have been finding out about for the first time? I don't think so.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No Ten Commandments before Sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

Ok so lets break it down. When did lying or stealing or coveting first became sinful? Was it as the moment God gave the commandments to Moses?

 

[Dave L]

Ok so lets break it down. When did lying or stealing or coveting first became sinful? Was it as the moment God gave the commandments to Moses?

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. They called it the “Ark of the Covenant” because it carried the Ten Commandments.

But the Two Great Commandments are the eternal law written in every heart. We know how we would like to be treated. But only those who are born again have Spiritual power to do this. So the Two Great Commandments condemn all except believers, to Hell.

Jesus said the Ten Commandments Hung from the Two Great Commandments. This was at a level wicked people could keep under threat of death for disobedience and promises of rewards for obedience. Sinners could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons, greed, fear etc.

But they could not keep the Two Great Commandments based on love without first having the Holy Spirit through the new birth.

 

[Greengardener]

No Ten Commandments before Sinai

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

Deleting this - since Dave was posting at the same time.

 

[Dave L]

The particular new "deal" or covenant that God made with them when He provided the 10 Commandments on tablets of stone does not preclude that the 10 Commandments had been given to them as facts of life before, Dave.

Show it from scripture. I just proved from scripture they did not exist as a body before then.

 

[Dansiph]

Show it from scripture. I just proved from scripture they did not exist as a body before then.

Sorry to jump in but I did think of John 1:1?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. They called it the “Ark of the Covenant” because it carried the Ten Commandments.

But the Two Great Commandments are the eternal law written in every heart. We know how we would like to be treated. But only those who are born again have Spiritual power to do this. So the Two Great Commandments condemn all except believers, to Hell.

Jesus said the Ten Commandments Hung from the Two Great Commandments. This was at a level wicked people could keep under threat of death for disobedience and promises of rewards for obedience. Sinners could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons, greed, fear etc.

But they could not keep the Two Great Commandments based on love without first having the Holy Spirit through the new birth.

Ok so the 10 commandments did exist before Moses under the principle of love but not as a collection of 10 commandments. They were just general principle. Is that right?

 

[Semper-Fi]

28 And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding' (Job 28:28).

Job said that this is what God said to man.
But no record of this being said in Genesis.

This proves that God spoke to humankind prior to Moses in at least one way that was not recorded in Genesis.

28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgement, For I would have denied God who is above
(Job 31:28).

If there were no commandments in effect, how could denying God be an iniquity deserving of judgement?

If there was no laws or sin,
why did man drown in the flood.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

28 And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding' (Job 28:28).

Job said that this is what God said to man.
But no record of this being said in Genesis.

This proves that God spoke to humankind prior to Moses in at least one way that was not recorded in Genesis.

28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgement, For I would have denied God who is above
(Job 31:28).

If there were no commandments in effect, how could denying God be an iniquity deserving of judgement?

Well if you actually look at it, there are a lot of things that were just not recorded. For example, God told Noah to bring in the animals into the ark, the clean by 7s and the unclean by 2s. No where is it recorded where God explained how to distinguish between a clean and an unclean animal until Moses but at some point he must have told Noah or Noah's ancestors who passed down that knowledge.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well if you actually look at it, there are a lot of things that were just not recorded. For example, God told Noah to bring in the animals into the ark, the clean by 7s and the unclean by 2s. No where is it recorded where God explained how to distinguish between a clean and an unclean animal until Moses but at some point he must have told Noah or Noah's ancestors who passed down that knowledge.

Yes and that illustrates well, the folly of theology based on non-mention. So many folks base their perspective in exclusively what is written and deny that God said or is saying anything else. Not that I accept contradiction, or challenge the authority of scripture, its just that He said and says other stuff as well.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. They called it the “Ark of the Covenant” because it carried the Ten Commandments.

But the Two Great Commandments are the eternal law written in every heart. We know how we would like to be treated. But only those who are born again have Spiritual power to do this. So the Two Great Commandments condemn all except believers, to Hell.

Jesus said the Ten Commandments Hung from the Two Great Commandments. This was at a level wicked people could keep under threat of death for disobedience and promises of rewards for obedience. Sinners could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons, greed, fear etc.

But they could not keep the Two Great Commandments based on love without first having the Holy Spirit through the new birth.

Within the Ark was the Lord's own copy of that holy law given to mankind in the beginning. "Where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). "Sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13); therefore the Lord could never have driven our first parents from the garden of Eden (Genesis 3:23) on account of their sin, if they had been ignorant of His holy law.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Show it from scripture. I just proved from scripture they did not exist as a body before then.

Did Cain Sin? If so what law did he violate?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Read this carefully from Romans 1:

Clearly God impresses on man directly the ability to know right and wrong and will judge accordingly.

The Law is an extra addition to what already was...

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

 

[ewq1938]

Exo_24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

 

[eleos1954]

Lets try to have a respectable discussion.

So we know that God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. My question is, did the 10 commandments exist before then. Like when did taking God's name in vain start being a sin, or when did lying and stealing start being a sin?

Actually sin started in heaven with lucifer

Read
Ezekiel 28:11-19

Also Isaiah 14:12-15

Pride, jealousy, and discontent arose in lucifer’s heart. He soon began to spread lies about God and desired to unseat God and to demand that everyone worship him instead.
John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

and lucifer and 1/3 of the angels were cast to the earth and sin spread into all creation.

Revelation 12:12
New Living Translation
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!

But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”

and ... woe is the world since then and until the Lord returns.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Actually sin started in heaven with lucifer

I agree with you so the ten commandments existed prior to earth being formed.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Read this carefully from Romans 1:

Clearly God impresses on man directly the ability to know right and wrong and will judge accordingly.

The Law is an extra addition to what already was...

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

So when we speak about the law its really encompasses a lot which is why i wanted to be specific about the ten commandments. There are laws about how how priests should be selected, laws about what specific animal needs to be sacrificed for a specific ceremony, stuff that you know is only applicable to the system at that time.

But you mentioned that you believe the ten commandments were in addition to the knowledge of right and wrong that God imparts to every person and I am not sure I agree. I remember a verse which talks about the gentiles naturally doing the things contained in the law. So that says to me its not in addition.