Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?

[Light of the East]

If you think God is love, you must also think God is stern. He is equally both.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath.

What do you think of this verse ?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
• Revelation 20:10



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[Light of the East]

So, basically, all the Gospel and NT authors were misquoted in every instance? Yet, there are no verses showing anything temporal about hell. Oh well, I see this will go nowhere. But, thanks anyway.

In other words, you get caught with the FACTS and you don't like it, so rather than consider that your ideas may be wrong, you pick up your football and go home. That's a real mature response.

I have been, for the last two years, really studying Christian history from the time of the Apostles up till now. What I keep finding is that the Church, rather than being some wonderful, pure, and noble bastion of truth, has been filled with ambitious men who have used it to their own ends. As such, some of these men have, for their own agenda, mistranslated parts of the Scripture or misrepresented the character of God.

One example is the half-pagan and murderous emperor Justinian, who closed down the four schools of theology which taught Universal Salvation. Why did he do this? Because he wanted a united and controlled empire over which he would rule. Justinian said this: "It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God."

Really? This from an emperor who himself did not keep the commandment of God as found in Matthew 5, but instead murdered his enemies - 4,500 of them. You know, I don't take my theology from murderous and hypocritical thugs.

Then there is the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church and their Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible in which they translate the word "metanoia" as "do penance." It means nothing of the sort. Metanoia means to change your mind. It doesn't mean doing anything!!! It does not mean wearing a hair shirt, flagellating yourself with whips, or any other form of punishment. This the Roman mindset - that sin is about being punished and therefore you must punish yourself to make up for that which is lacking in the Cross. Eastern Orthodoxy recognizes no such idea. The Cross is sufficient to redeem, and the ascesis we undergo, such as fasting on certain days, has to do with bringing our rebellious flesh under control of our spirit and opening ourselves therefore to the Spirit of God. But Roman Catholic interpreters decided to translate that word to fit their soteriology.

And the same happened, I believe, with the word "aionios" Beginning with Augustine, who really kicked this whole eternal punishment thing off, mankind was described as "totally depraved" and a "massa damnata" worthy only of suffering forever. The idea of us bearing the image of God, marred bu still there, of us being God's children, was set aside, along with the medicinal view of the Cross as healing us from sin. In place came the Roman Courtroom mentality.

Then apologist by the name of Anselm of Canterbury expanded on this and said that because God is eternal, sin against Him must be worthy of eternal torment. He was followed by Aquinas, who stated that the saints will see the suffering of the wicked and it will give glory to God and add to the joy of salvation. Really???? Seeing another being suffer will give me pleasure?

We have names for people like that and we put them away in places where they can't hurt anyone!

So there has been a whole train of thought in which men have pushed their agenda over the Bible, which simply states that God is love. None of the actions which are ascribed to God in eternal punishment correspond to love.

 

[Light of the East]

Torturing someone forever and ever is not any kind of definition of stern. It is the definition of a sociopath.

I think that verse has been mistranslated. There is a post above ours which states that they word "tortured" carries the meaning of "tested" as in the refining of gold.

Do you think that God still loves the devil, even in the devil's rebellion? Do you think our God takes delight in torturing anyone or any sentient being?

Here, I just looked it up over at BlueLetterBible:

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

βασανίζω
Transliteration
basanizō
Pronunciation
bä-sä-nē'-zō (Key)

I am at the point that I wonder if we even have an honest translation of the Bible anymore. I keep finding evidence that those who have made translations have had their agenda in mind first and the truth last.

 

[jcm2000]

In other words, you get caught with the FACTS and you don't like it, so rather than consider that your ideas may be wrong, you pick up your football and go home. That's a real mature response.

I have been, for the last two years, really studying Christian history from the time of the Apostles up till now. What I keep finding is that the Church, rather than being some wonderful, pure, and noble bastion of truth, has been filled with ambitious men who have used it to their own ends. As such, some of these men have, for their own agenda, mistranslated parts of the Scripture or misrepresented the character of God.

One example is the half-pagan and murderous emperor Justinian, who closed down the four schools of theology which taught Universal Salvation. Why did he do this? Because he wanted a united and controlled empire over which he would rule. Justinian said this: "It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God."

Really? This from an emperor who himself did not keep the commandment of God as found in Matthew 5, but instead murdered his enemies - 4,500 of them. You know, I don't take my theology from murderous and hypocritical thugs.

Then there is the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church and their Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible in which they translate the word "metanoia" as "do penance." It means nothing of the sort. Metanoia means to change your mind. It doesn't mean doing anything!!! It does not mean wearing a hair shirt, flagellating yourself with whips, or any other form of punishment. This the Roman mindset - that sin is about being punished and therefore you must punish yourself to make up for that which is lacking in the Cross. Eastern Orthodoxy recognizes no such idea. The Cross is sufficient to redeem, and the ascesis we undergo, such as fasting on certain days, has to do with bringing our rebellious flesh under control of our spirit and opening ourselves therefore to the Spirit of God. But Roman Catholic interpreters decided to translate that word to fit their soteriology.

And the same happened, I believe, with the word "aionios" Beginning with Augustine, who really kicked this whole eternal punishment thing off, mankind was described as "totally depraved" and a "massa damnata" worthy only of suffering forever. The idea of us bearing the image of God, marred bu still there, of us being God's children, was set aside, along with the medicinal view of the Cross as healing us from sin. In place came the Roman Courtroom mentality.

Then apologist by the name of Anselm of Canterbury expanded on this and said that because God is eternal, sin against Him must be worthy of eternal torment. He was followed by Aquinas, who stated that the saints will see the suffering of the wicked and it will give glory to God and add to the joy of salvation. Really???? Seeing another being suffer will give me pleasure?

We have names for people like that and we put them away in places where they can't hurt anyone!

So there has been a whole train of thought in which men have pushed their agenda over the Bible, which simply states that God is love. None of the actions which are ascribed to God in eternal punishment correspond to love.

Especially love the Metanoia part concerning Repentance. You my friend are spot on regarding that. So many bad teachings have come from misuse of the definition of repent.

 

[jcm2000]

I think that verse has been mistranslated. There is a post above ours which states that they word "tortured" carries the meaning of "tested" as in the refining of gold.

Do you think that God still loves the devil, even in the devil's rebellion? Do you think our God takes delight in torturing anyone or any sentient being?

Here, I just looked it up over at BlueLetterBible:

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

βασανίζω
Transliteration
basanizō
Pronunciation
bä-sä-nē'-zō (Key)

I am at the point that I wonder if we even have an honest translation of the Bible anymore. I keep finding evidence that those who have made translations have had their agenda in mind first and the truth last.

Just made the same statement in post #120

 

[Light of the East]

Universalism is a broad term that requires definition as there various perspectives within this view. Some do not believe in a literal, physical lake of fire. Others such as myself do. Based on this, an atheist would still need to repent and believe in the atoning blood of Jesus for forgiveness of sin, lest he/she end up in the LOF for an age of time. Being in the LOF for even a minute is not worth it, hence the need to repent in this life.

I will bet good money that the souls who loved sin in their lives and are now being refined by the love of God and the scourging of that love are desperately wishing they could escape and between their howls of misery and pain, are wishing they had listened to the Christians instead of making fun of them. Regardless of the telos of our souls, i.e. that all are eventually redeemed to God and God becomes all in all, this is serious business and life is to be a serious quest to put down sin and seek God's mercy here and now before we suffer in the next life.

 

[Light of the East]

Just made the same statement in post #120

Yes. I was referring to your post. Then I looked it up for myself.

Funny thing about translations. You see that there can be multiple uses for a single word, yet men, in their desire to support an agenda, will go from the primary use to something that supports them in their false ideas, no matter how wrong or egregious it is. It's like they say, "Well, because we believe THIS, that word must mean THAT" and they never stop to think of the ramifications of their belief system or the pure bovine excrement they are putting out in some cases.

It's amazing what you find out when you start to study the original language of the Bible without all the cultural baggage. You find that your BS meter starts going wild.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Yes. I was referring to your post. Then I looked it up for myself.

Funny thing about translations. You see that there can be multiple uses for a single word, yet men, in their desire to support an agenda, will go from the primary use to something that supports them in their false ideas, no matter how wrong or egregious it is. It's like they say, "Well, because we believe THIS, that word must mean THAT" and they never stop to think of the ramifications of their belief system or the pure bovine excrement they are putting out in some cases.

It's amazing what you find out when you start to study the original language of the Bible without all the cultural baggage. You find that your BS meter starts going wild.

View attachment 260760

The Canons and Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils are Infallible and The Second Council of Constantinople says : • 9 "If Anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, Let Him Be Anathema.
• Second Council of Constantinople (553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)




.

 

[jcm2000]

Yes. I was referring to your post. Then I looked it up for myself.

Funny thing about translations. You see that there can be multiple uses for a single word, yet men, in their desire to support an agenda, will go from the primary use to something that supports them in their false ideas, no matter how wrong or egregious it is. It's like they say, "Well, because we believe THIS, that word must mean THAT" and they never stop to think of the ramifications of their belief system or the pure bovine excrement they are putting out in some cases.

It's amazing what you find out when you start to study the original language of the Bible without all the cultural baggage. You find that your BS meter starts going wild.

View attachment 260760

Agreed! - I've recently within the last year came to these differing views of Eternal Torment etc. How the words Eternal, forever and ever etc. in the English don't carry the same meaning as the originals. To be honest it shows how elitist a lot of Christians are. God chose me, I'm special. I'm part of the Christian Club, Those sinners deserve to go to hell. I'm making it in. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ in this life. So that means I'm making it and your not, LOL. You had your chance, but to bad LOL. Not saying all christians who believe in Eternal Torment are this way.

 

[jcm2000]

The Canons and Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils are Infallible and The Second Council of Constantinople says : • 9 "If Anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, Let Him Be Anathema.
• Second Council of Constantinople (553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)




.

Yeah because they are the formal Judge on what God can do or not do. LOL

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Yeah because they are the formal Judge on what God can do or not do. LOL

Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive The Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
• John 20:19-23


.

 

[Light of the East]

The Canons and Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils are Infallible and The Second Council of Constantinople says : • 9 "If Anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, Let Him Be Anathema.
• Second Council of Constantinople (553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)

Those canons are not part of the original council, but were added under duress (and threats no doubt) from the half-pagan and murderous thug of an emperor Justinian (you guys have really strange saints, people who kill their enemies instead of loving them as Jesus commanded). Modern scholarship has shown that this happened, although at the time it was accepted.

The emperor, quite frankly, overstepped his bounds by doing this. The original condemnation of Origen was not for Apokatastasis, but rather for his strange idea of the pre-existence of souls.

You know, the Eastern Orthodox have a very strange way of vetting their saints - THEY DON'T! The Roman Catholic Church, with whom I violently disagree in regards to their invented doctrines, at least will insist upon two medically verifiable miracles along with a holy life.

Killing your enemies after they have surrendered and just because they won't "accept Jesus" doesn't qualify as a holy life.

 

[Light of the East]

Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive The Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
• John 20:19-23

What authority did the bishops of the Church have when at one time, all of them except Athanasius and the Bishop of Rome (pope) were Arian heretics? Remember the phrase "Athanasius contra mundum." ? That was because only Athanasius and the pope were orthodox in their Christology.

When a thug of an emperor imprisons the bishop of Rome, threatens him, and then adds to the canons of a council, I have every right to question those canons and disbelieve in them, just as I would ignore the Robber Council.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Those canons are not part of the original council, but were added under duress (and threats no doubt) from the half-pagan and murderous thug of an emperor Justinian (you guys have really strange saints, people who kill their enemies instead of loving them as Jesus commanded). Modern scholarship has shown that this happened, although at the time it was accepted.

The emperor, quite frankly, overstepped his bounds by doing this. The original condemnation of Origen was not for Apokatastasis, but rather for his strange idea of the pre-existence of souls.

You know, the Eastern Orthodox have a very strange way of vetting their saints - THEY DON'T! The Roman Catholic Church, with whom I violently disagree in regards to their invented doctrines, at least will insist upon two medically verifiable miracles along with a holy life.

Killing your enemies after they have surrendered and just because they won't "accept Jesus" doesn't qualify as a holy life.

The First 7 Ecumenical Councils are agreed upon by both Roman Catholicism and The Eastern Orthodox, so we are both connected to their Canons and Decrees.



.

 

[jcm2000]

Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive The Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
• John 20:19-23


.

Forgiving of sins quoted here is sins that have burdened you from another person directly to you. Remember the Jews were wanting to persecute the disciples. It has nothing to do with sin of our fallen nature in relation to God. Only Christ has that authority!

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

What authority did the bishops of the Church have when at one time, all of them except Athanasius and the Bishop of Rome (pope) were Arian heretics? Remember the phrase "Athanasius contra mundum." ? That was because only Athanasius and the pope were orthodox in their Christology.

When a thug of an emperor imprisons the bishop of Rome, threatens him, and then adds to the canons of a council, I have every right to question those canons and disbelieve in them, just as I would ignore the Robber Council.

Orthodoxy always prevails though. Even though there were Arian Bishops in The Church, The Lord always makes Orthodoxy prevail.


Even Saint John Chrysostom said this :

“I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.”
• St. John Chrysostom , (Extract from St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12)




and Athanasius of Alexandria said this :

“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
• St. Athanasius of Alexandria , Council of Nicaea, (325 A.D.)




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[Light of the East]

The First 7 Ecumenical Councils are agreed upon by both Roman Catholicism and The Eastern Orthodox, so we are both connected to their Canons and Decrees.

So in other words, tampering with the canons of a council doesn't matter.

Well, then, don't let me hear anymore Orthodox whining about the Filioque, eh?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Forgiving of sins quoted here is sins that have burdened you from another person directly to you. Remember the Jews were wanting to persecute the disciples. It has nothing to do with sin of our fallen nature in relation to God. Only Christ has that authority!

Jesus gave The Disciples Authority to forgive sins.



.

 

[jcm2000]

Jesus gave The Disciples Authority to forgive sins.



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If that's what that means then what does that mean for today? Was it only for 12?