What percentage of the world is saved?

[Kenny'sID]

Maybe not here, but it was the doctrine I was raised with. Here is as close to a quote as I can give from memory of a visiting speaker at our church when I was in high school: (on a winter sunday evening service)

You can come down here to this alter tonight and get everything right with God. Then you can get up, grab your coat and go out to get in your car, get hit and die and go STRAIGHT TO HELL because you already committed 20 sins you don't even know about before you ever left that back door.​

If that isn't a 100% obedience thing 100% of the time I do not know what is.

I seriously doubt that is taught anywhere but by a preacher who is completely clueless, or you misunderstood him. Sounds to me like he may have been saying if we don't accept
Christ, and get forgiveness of those sins, that could happen. That or, again, he's a crackpot who doesn't know his bible.

However, if you can show me any denomination who teaches 100% perfection, I'd be very interested to look into it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Actually, I do not believe that to be so at all. I believe God is much more gracious and extends 2nd, 3rd, and 1047th chances for us.

Wasn't he strict by having his children wonder for 40yrs before he gave them the Promised Land. There are probably hundreds of cases where God was very strict, and i don't see how the fact could be missed.

 

[Dave-W]

If you read Paul's epistles. Noah's "Law" can be our conscience and moral code embedded in our hearts. So under an older covenant applicable to gentiles, Jesus will judge in accordance to how well humans act by conscience (which is based off a standardized set of laws).

Romans 2:14-15 (NIV2011)
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Yes - but there is no indication that such a "law" is salvic.

 

[Dave-W]

Wasn't he strict by having his children wonder for 40yrs before he gave them the Promised Land. There are probably hundreds of cases where God was very strict, and i don't see how the fact could be missed.

Strict would have been to cut them off entirely rather than giving them another chance 40 years later.

 

[Hawkins]

Yes - but there is no indication that such a "law" is salvic.

The Bible is to demonstrate how the Old Covenant of the Jews is done. The same token can apply to gentiles unless you have to assume that gentiles before Christ are not savable.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes - but there is no indication that such a "law" is salvic.

In a very real sense, we are all Gods children, would you send any of your Children to Hell for being disobedient? God would, after much patience and fair warning, he's that strict where would not be.

 

[Dave-W]

The Bible is to demonstrate how the Old Covenant of the Jews is done. The same token can apply to gentiles unless you have to assume that gentiles before Christ are not savable.

How does the biblical injunction of offering a lamb for a sin offering apply to a native American or an Australian aborigine or someone from China born before Christ?

As to the gentiles before Christ, the bible is silent about them. So we can formulate NO doctrine about it whatsoever. We just do not know.

And that is ok.

 

[Hawkins]

How does the biblical injunction of offering a lamb for a sin offering apply to a native American or an Australian aborigine or someone from China born before Christ?

I think I already explained. Jesus' blood can cover all humanity, even though the sacrifice itself only occurred in 1st century. It's not difficult for this to be understood by modern humans. It's the effect of our credit cards.

In China after Noah, people are supposed to act by conscience. Jesus will thus judge (on the judgment day) how well ancient Chinese act by their conscience, after all the environment factors.

In Noah's age, it actually demonstrated that if not because of Noah's covenant humans should have been destroyed completely. However Noah is righteous, there must be a covenant applicable to openly measure Noah to say that he's actually righteous. That's the purpose of the first covenant.

 

[Dave-W]

I think I already explained. Jesus' blood can cover all humanity, even though the sacrifice itself only occurred in 1st century. It's not difficult for this to be understood by modern humans. It's the effect of our credit cards.

In China after Noah, people are supposed to act by conscience. Jesus will thus judge (on the judgment day) how well ancient Chinese act by their conscience.

You are trying to stretch something to which the bible never said it covers. A manufactured doctrine.

Do not do that. It is "Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." Mark 7.7

 

[Kenny'sID]

Strict would have been to cut them off entirely rather than giving them another chance 40 years later.

He's a God of his word so he could not cut them off.

And remember 40yrs for the Israelites simply being afraid to take the land/not believing God would help them, or basically not having enough faith in him...sounds pretty strict to me.

 

[Hawkins]

You are trying to stretch something to which the bible never said it covers. A manufactured doctrine.

Do not do that. It is "Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." Mark 7.7

You did the same by implying that no one before Jesus can be saved. I only deduce from the Bible that this is not the situation.

No where says in the Bible that gentiles before Christ are not savable! This exactly remains your doctrine of men!

 

[Kenny'sID]

But that aside, there are many places in the bible God was more strict than us. Very few of us would send anyone to hell, saved or not, something many, even Christians, consider way over the line cruel, or "strict".

He just is, but no way to convince someone who won't see it regardless of what I tell them.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No where says in the Bible that gentiles before Christ are not savable! This exactly remains your doctrine of men!

They only had a different covenant, but yes, as you say, absolutely savable. The only real difference was, animals took on the sin with their life, not Christ.

 

[Dave-W]

You did the same by implying that no one before Jesus can be saved

No where did I say that. I said the bible has nothing to say about it so we simply do not know one way or the other.

 

[Dave-W]

They only had a different covenant,

There is no recorded covenant with non-jews after Moses.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There is no recorded covenant with non-jews after Moses.

I didn't specify who was saved by that covenant just that they were savable. I was talking about whatever the person I replied to was talking about.

 

[Hawkins]

No where did I say that. I said the bible has nothing to say about it so we simply do not know one way or the other.

The logic is simple. It's not difficult for the Bible to put one sentence that "humans before Christ can't be saved". However it will be a mass of distraction if more details are to be put on how they can be saved.

That's why one can examine closely on how they can be saved by deducing from what is said. The Bible didn't directly say that God is a Trinity either. It by no means says that the Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of men as long as the reasonable deduction from the Bible supports so!

 

[joshua 1 9]

Can you please answer each of the questions, so I can better understand?

What is your question?

 

[Dave-W]

That's why one can examine closely on how they can be saved by deducing from what is said. The Bible didn't directly say that God is a Trinity either. It by no means says that the Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of men as long as the reasonable deduction from the Bible supports so!

One HUGE problem with that: The bible does NOT use "deductive" logic. It uses a different framework called either Hebrew Block logic or adductive logic.

 

[sdowney717]

The logic is simple. It's not difficult for the Bible to put one sentence that "humans before Christ can't be saved". However it will be a mass of distraction if more details are to be put on how they can be saved.

That's why one can examine closely on how they can be saved by deducing from what is said. The Bible didn't directly say that God is a Trinity either. It by no means says that the Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of men as long as the reasonable deduction from the Bible supports so!

Romans 2 and the gentiles being judged by the law written in their hearts. Well by the law will no flesh be justified, for by the law is the knowledge of sin, and all have sinned.
When it says their conscince perhaps excuses them, this is not God excusing their sins, it them (their conscience) excusing themselves to God, Adam did so blaming Eve, their is no salvation in that, it is a demonstration of their evil hearts.