Predestination

[Jonaitis]

I think that there is a difference between the sovereignty of God and what we call "Predestination." If God had predestined those who would be saved and those who would go to Hell then that means God would also have predestined the fall of mankind which would mean that he not Satan is the true author of evil. If God is the author of evil then that means he cannot be an all loving God. That would mean God created an amoral word.

I agree that in order for God to predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, then he must have predestined Adam to fall. However, I don't agree that this makes God the author of evil. He can predestine the event to happen, but he doesn't have to be responsible for the creature's actions.

Scripture is quite clear though in many instances that Jesus died for all of mankind and that while salvation is for all God in his omniscience knows who will and who will not accept the gift of salvation. God in the beginning allowed this creation to have free will because he wanted his people to choose to love him willingly just as he chose to love us. The only way love can exist is in a world that allows the freedom of choice and to experience the world as it is and as it can be. This is the only kind of world where evil can truly be held accountable and where people can know the difference between right and wrong. This means God created a moral world and this is the world that we live in today.

If Jesus died for all individuals, then there will be no one in hell. You must believe in some sort of limited atonement, that only those who believe and repent are saved. Jesus did not die for an anonymous group, hoping that one day they will receive him.

Yes, we did have "free will" prior to the fall, not after. Once we plunged into a state of sin and death, our will was enslaved to our corrupt desires. We are naturally corrupt in our choices, and we do not willingly want to receive Jesus. We need the divine act of regeneration to bring us from spiritual death to spiritual life and behold him as he is under the faithful preaching of his gospel. Without regeneration, we would never understand or believe the gospel.

God is not the sadistic monster that Calvinism and the Augustinian school of thought portray him to be. God loves all and extends salvation to all who will listen and accept.

This is the charge of the atheist who cannot accept the concept of an actual hell, where many will suffer for all eternity in punishment for their sin.

This is the charge of the atheist who misreads the biblical histories and prophets, and looks at God as a hot-tempered, sadistic, emotionally-driven monster.

If you actually study this, you will realize how unfitting such a description is for God.

 

[Jonaitis]

Yes. Previously I believed that the Prophets, Apostles, many pastors and clergy were predestined to be saved. But I'm reading some sources that claim EVERY Christian who is called (and believes) was predestined to be saved. And further, that all who are not called will not be saved. Isn't this Calvinism?

"Calvinism," another name for the 'Doctrines of Grace,' does teach that all who will be saved were already predestined beforehand. They are what they are, because God chose them out of his free will and love, not for anything he saw in him. We did nothing to influence God to choose us, he did it out of his own grace.

 

[Jonaitis]

Yes, but not in the way a Calvinist understands predestination.

Google "Corporate view of election."

www.soteriology101.com

"Calvinism" believe in a corporate election as well, that the Church, not just the individuals, is a chosen people.

 

[His student]

Do you believe that God carries out in time what he predestined? I agree that God forces no one to do anything.

As the Westminster Confession rightly says - God uses "means" to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur. Often times those means are the choices of men - both good and bad.

It is also clear that God does no "violence" to the will of men in doing so.

 

[Jonaitis]

As the Westminster Confession rightly says - God uses "means" to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur. Often times those means are the choices of men - both good and bad.

I agree with this.

 

[His student]

God predestines all that happens?

Without shadow of doubt.

So was it "the will of God" that 29 people were killed in the mass shootings in Dayton, OH and El Paso Texas?

Obviously nothing can happen which is not "in some way" the will of God.

You'll have to nuance for us what you mean by "the will of God" before we can talk about it further.

If so then said God is a sick and demented old man who loves to laugh at a sick joke.

Only if you make God the author of the sin that He predestined to occur. The scriptures are clear that He is not.

You seem to be equating predestination with God authoring sin and forcing men to commit that sin.

It is clear that you don't understand what predestination is.

The predestination of all that happens in God's creation is a necessary and inescapable doctrine considering what we know of God's omniscience.

God Himself being the one who predestines whatever happens is a necessary and inescapable doctrine considering what we know of God's "aseity" and His omnipresence.

 

[Albion]

Albion your missing the point the God did choose his elect before the foundation of the world.

Not at all. I merely commented on your post in which you said that God chose on the basis of what he saw in the person. If his decision comes after seeing something in the person or done by the person, that wouldn't be predestination, which I understood you to believe in.

As for myself, I neither expressed a belief in predestination nor rejected it.

 

[Oldmantook]

Do you believe that God predestined some individuals to salvation?

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." - Acts 13:48

God predestines all to salvation. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Jn 12:32

 

[ilovejcsog]

I agree that in order for God to predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, then he must have predestined Adam to fall. However, I don't agree that this makes God the author of evil. He can predestine the event to happen, but he doesn't have to be responsible for the creature's actions.



If Jesus died for all individuals, then there will be no one in hell. You must believe in some sort of limited atonement, that only those who believe and repent are saved. Jesus did not die for an anonymous group, hoping that one day they will receive him.

Yes, we did have "free will" prior to the fall, not after. Once we plunged into a state of sin and death, our will was enslaved to our corrupt desires. We are naturally corrupt in our choices, and we do not willingly want to receive Jesus. We need the divine act of regeneration to bring us from spiritual death to spiritual life and behold him as he is under the faithful preaching of his gospel. Without regeneration, we would never understand or believe the gospel.



This is the charge of the atheist who cannot accept the concept of an actual hell, where many will suffer for all eternity in punishment for their sin.

This is the charge of the atheist who misreads the biblical histories and prophets, and looks at God as a hot-tempered, sadistic, emotionally-driven monster.

If you actually study this, you will realize how unfitting such a description is for God.

You can always believe as a UNI does, that there is no Hell.

 

[aiki]

"Calvinism" believe in a corporate election as well, that the Church, not just the individuals, is a chosen people.

It's been my experience that Calvinist/Reform proponents have their own unique definition of terms and phrases that other soteriological perspectives use. Certainly, whatever a Calvinist may mean by "the corporate view of election," he doesn't mean exactly what a Provisionalist or Armenianist means when they use the phrase.

 

[ilovejcsog]

Yes, God predestines some to salvation and reprobates the rest so they will end up in hell forever and ever.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

That takes away 'choice'.

 

[ilovejcsog]

Albion your missing the point the God did choose his elect before the foundation of the world. Or is God only allowed to like and to choose afterwards you think? And yes that would not be predestination if you see it that way. Which would be contrary to what scripture says.

What percentage is elect, sounds like few?

 

[Albion]

That takes away 'choice'.

Yes. That is the point of predestination...God decides.

What percentage is elect, sounds like few?

We are not told the answer to this in Scripture.

 

[Snoder]

Bling as stated in Romans 9:15 God will have mercy and compassion apon whom he pleases. Not too many people like being told by others what fruit and vegetables or cigarette brand they should choose when they go shopping. Yet you demand of God exactly that. That he should choose all. Hope that has been some help. Why did God choose me . I don’t know. I guess he liked what he saw.

Calvinism teaches that you aren't saved for any reason other than randomness.

 

[Snoder]

Do you believe that God predestined some individuals to salvation?

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." - Acts 13:48

A god of predestination sounds monstrous.

Here is the run down. God creates humans, who being spiritual and material are doomed to failure. Eventually someone is going to sin. Sin inevitably enters the world, now everyone is guilty, and everyone deserves hell.

Now everyone deserves hell, because we are sinners, despite the fact we never made a free choice!

So now god being random and proving he is the boss, because god is petty like that, I guess, makes salvation available for people. But all people are bad, so instead of saving everyone, god decides to save some people to prove that he is the boss. Because in this view of god, that is the only way to reconcile why some people deny god.

If that does not make sense to you, it shouldn't, but that is predestination theology without all the apologetics and games.

People will argue that allowing people to freely choose salvation diminishes the power of God. The power of God to do what, cruel stuff that makes not a bit of sense?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Do you believe that God predestined some individuals to salvation?

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." - Acts 13:48

I believe in double predestination.

"Choose" is not the best word because it implies action after the objects exist.

God creates some people to be objects of wrath and others to be objects of mercy.

Though, we could say that God chooses what kind of vessel we are before he creates us.

 

[Oldmantook]

Calvinism teaches that you aren't saved for any reason other than randomness.

And God so loved the world that he elected some to salvation while letting others remain damned.

 

[redleghunter]

And God so loved the world that he elected some to salvation while letting others remain damned.

I think “whosoever believes in Him” is actually in that passage.

 

[Snoder]

I think “whosoever believes in Him” is actually in that passage.

Whomsoever he made believe in him isn't.

 

[redleghunter]

Whomsoever he made believe in him isn't.

Yes of course. What leads us to believe in Him? A new heart right?

Ezekiel 36: NASB

25I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.