Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

Aldebaran

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Continuing post #179 ...

However, we do get to CHOOSE whether we co-operate with
the precious Holy Spirit as He endeavors to sanctify us unto holiness
... so we will be acceptable to Father God for entrance into heaven.

Just as a child can choose whether or not to cooperate with his/her parents while they're raising their child to be according to their values. Of course the parents don't disown the child if he/she doesn't love the parents enough, or doesn't always obey, and the child remains the son/daughter of the parents.
As we are born again into the family of God, we are born of the flesh into a family on earth, and no lack of love undoes being born to a particular set of parents. Being born of the Spirit of God is no less significant.
 
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Acts2:38

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Your error here is that you place this verse and have to implicitly add- If we deny HIm, after we have accepted HIm and we were given the gift of eternal ife and will never perish, then He will deny us!

I never implied anything. I simply copied and pasted a verse. If you got that from that verse, then you rightly applied it but still are in denial, rejecting truth.

Let me give you an example.

Scriptures tell us to use unleavened bread and fruit of the vine for the Lords Supper. It doesn't tell use to NOT to use anything else, but does that mean it's okay to do anything else other than that?

I would think not.

Also, your forgetting something very important. Paul is speaking to Timothy. Timothy is a Christian. So Paul, is sitting here telling Timothy, who is a Christian, that if we (Christians) deny Christ, that He will deny us.

Which now brings me to another thing you mentioned/implied.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

People somehow seem to think that if someone stops being faithful, that they were never a Christian to begin with.

That is false. Simply because in one example:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I really love how God, through the men chosen by God, had written scripture. It is so simple. It is written at the 6-8th grade reading level, and easy to understand. You don't need a scholar or a bachelor degree. Twelve year old children can grasp its meaning.

This scripture in Hebrews 6 here, clearly shows it speaks of Christians who actually were Christians. Hebrews is in fact written to Christians; the audience is Christians in the book of Hebrews. Therefore, this warning is applied to Christians, who actually are Christians, contrary to what you have been taught.

In conclusion, you have twisted the meaning of 1 John 2:19 to imply something that just isn't so.

YOu preac a conditional salvation based on making sure we do not do X amount of bad works in X amount of time!

Salvation is conditional.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is conditional sir. You can't stand there and tell me it isn't.

Person has ability to obtain everlasting life...

HOW?

That whoever believes in Him....

It's a condition. I see a lot of conditional scripture sir. I can give you examples all day long.

"Believe", whether it's English or Greek, it's still a verb. An action word. It means you actually have to do something. I would highly recommend Hebrews 11 (maybe tie in with James 2:14-26; James 1:22-25)

One more example to ponder before I bid you a great and wonderful day.

Mark 16:16

Person to obtain a saved state....

HOW?!

Believe and be baptized....

That is another condition that everyone needs to meet.

I will read any other post you direct toward me, but honestly, if we will continue to disagree, then we should stop here for now. Thank you, and good day to you.
 
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Perhaps, this is the condition ...
In the OT, it says (in several places) that God desires
to dwell with those who have humble and contrite hearts.
So IMO, this is who He chooses for salvation.

Also IMO, He has to give these people a seed of faith
to enable them to believe.
Remember Lydia in Acts 16:14 ...
"The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Is this only in her case, or did the rest of us folks CHOOSE for ourselves?
Nah ... too many NT verses against it.

I believe Prevenient Grace is the best way to harmonize what Scripture says as whole on this topic. Prevenient Grace is the belief that God draws men at certain times to see and understand the gospel so as to choose it or reject it of their own free will. Without this illumination or drawing by God, a person cannot understand the gospel. For in the Parable in the Sower, we learn that the first seed did not even understand the gospel message. The devil stole the seed out of their heart before they could understand it. So there are times where a person can hear the gospel and not understand it because they have not been drawn by God yet. But God will draw all men unto Him in His timing, though.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Acts of the Apostles 16:14 says,
“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Note: This was an opening of the heart to listen and it was not a change of heart to be instantly saved and regenerated).


Good Article on this topic:
What Biblical Evidence Is There For Prevenient Grace?
 
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Just as a child can choose whether or not to cooperate with his/her parents while they're raising their child to be according to their values. Of course the parents don't disown the child if he/she doesn't love the parents enough, or doesn't always obey, and the child remains the son/daughter of the parents.
As we are born again into the family of God, we are born of the flesh into a family on earth, and no lack of love undoes being born to a particular set of parents. Being born of the Spirit of God is no less significant.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that when the prodigal son came home and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" two times (Luke 15:24) (Luke 15:32). His father said he was "lost" and now he is "found." So the prodigal son was lost and dead spiritually when he was living his prodigal life of sin away from the father. But when he came back home to the father, he became "alive again" and "found." James 5:19-20 also confirms the truth that a believer can die spiritually and regain their salvation back again, as well.
 
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Aldebaran

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In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that when the prodigal son came home and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again" two times (Luke 15:24) (Luke 15:32). His father said he was "lost" and now he is "found." So the prodigal son was lost and dead spiritually when he was living his prodigal life of sin away from the father. But when he came back home to the father, he became "alive again" and "found." James 5:19-20 also confirms the truth that a believer can die spiritually and regain their salvation back again, as well.

You almost had me until "regain their salvation back again, as well". If the son in the parable was considered by the father to be dead (as in no longer his son), then why was the father waiting for the son to come home, and go running to him while the son was still far away? Nope! The kid was still a son and the man was still his father. In the case of our relationship to God, we are still sons even while we are far away, and therefore still saved. It wouldn't make any sense to think God would adopt us as sons alongside Christ, and then cast us into Hell afterwards. If we walk away from Him, He chastises us to bring us back, just as the shepherd doesn't just abandon his sheep if the sheep walk away from the shepherd.
 
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You almost had me until "regain their salvation back again, as well". If the son in the parable was considered by the father to be dead (as in no longer his son), then why was the father waiting for the son to come home, and go running to him while the son was still far away? Nope! The kid was still a son and the man was still his father. In the case of our relationship to God, we are still sons even while we are far away, and therefore still saved. It wouldn't make any sense to think God would adopt us as sons alongside Christ, and then cast us into Hell afterwards. If we walk away from Him, He chastises us to bring us back, just as the shepherd doesn't just abandon his sheep if the sheep walk away from the shepherd.

Chastising is for those who will heed the correction. Not everyone will heed the correction. They are not brain washed to be a certain way forever. Hence, why the son was said to be dead when he went prodigal. Dead sons cannot join in on family picnics or get togethers. They are dead and buried. Ever heard of the verse that says that the children of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness?

Also, the son was said to be lost, too. Generally when we talk about the word "lost" in the Bible it is referring to somebody that is not saved.
 
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eleos1954

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I said that my works must play a part as the grounds for my salvation
because that is what the word of God says.

WARNING TO ALL BORN-AGAIN BELIEVERS
Throw everything in the nearest dumpster
that you have learned about Christianity
from family, friends, school, church, etc.
Instead, believe (and put your trust)
in God's word, the Bible.
If you do this, the precious Holy Spirit
will lead you into all spiritual Truth.
One thing of the utmost importance
that you will learn is that the popular
doctrine of grace-only, hyper-grace, etc.
is a false doctrine from the pits of hell.

I said that my works must play a part as the grounds for my salvation
because that is what the word of God says.

Isaiah 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Galatians 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
 
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Isaiah 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Galatians 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Yes, that is what the Eternal Security Proponent does not understand. The works that I do are not my own, but they are the good works of the Lord working through me. Jesus says in John 15:5 that we can do nothing without Him. Works of righteousness that are filthy rags are Man Directed Works that is not something that God actually commanded.
 
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eleos1954

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Yes, that is what the Eternal Security Proponent does not understand. The works that I do are not my own, but they are the good works of the Lord working through me. Jesus says in John 15:5 that we can do nothing without Him. Works of righteousness that are filthy rags are Man Directed Works that is not something that God actually commanded.

Yeah .. well ... in the new earth everyone will be keeping the Lord's Sabbath

Isaiah
22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
 
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Yeah .. well ... in the new earth everyone will be keeping the Lord's Sabbath

Isaiah
22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

No argument there. But that is the New Earth, and not this Earth in the here and now.
 
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You almost had me until "regain their salvation back again, as well". If the son in the parable was considered by the father to be dead (as in no longer his son), then why was the father waiting for the son to come home, and go running to him while the son was still far away? Nope! The kid was still a son and the man was still his father. In the case of our relationship to God, we are still sons even while we are far away, and therefore still saved. It wouldn't make any sense to think God would adopt us as sons alongside Christ, and then cast us into Hell afterwards. If we walk away from Him, He chastises us to bring us back, just as the shepherd doesn't just abandon his sheep if the sheep walk away from the shepherd.

God has both sons of obedience and sons of disobedience. The sons of obedience will inherit eternal life and the sons of disobedience will receive His wrath.

Ephesians 5:5-10
Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them, 8 for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. rsv

We all are ultimately judged by our works. Those who have done good works will inherit eternal life and those who have done evil works and have not repented before death will receive the wrath of God.

John 5:28-30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” rsv

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Luke 13:23-27
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ rsv

There is no belief in God without obedience to God's commandments. There is no faith in God without obedience to God's commandments.

When we die, we are judged by our works.




 
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How can we possibly understand this verse?

Perhaps, a sacrifice is not needed for the BAC who willfully sins
... except for (the sacrifice of) repentance?


When a person falls away from the faith through his own sinfulness, he loses the salvation he received as his free gift/grace from Christ.
However, he can regain salvation by repenting and confessing his sin. To repent means to change one's lifestyle from sinfulness to faithfulness.

Luke 8:13-14
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. rsv

Revelation 3:15-17
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. rsv

When we die, we are all ultimately judged by our works.

John 5:28-30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv
 
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It is sad to read these post. And how bad peoples understanding, of how to receive eternal life, is today.

Lets see a person can loose their eternal life but they can get it back by repenting.
But of course they do not have to believe, trust in The Messiah a second time (like a person does the first time, to receive eternal life) to again receive eternal life the second time.

They now have to repent of their sins the second time around to re receive eternal life. What is required if there is a third time, or a fourth time. Do you have to be baptized again.

And the amazing thing is people say the Bible teaches this. What a incongruous set of beliefs are represented in this topic thread
 
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How can we possibly understand this verse?

Perhaps, a sacrifice is not needed for the BAC who willfully sins
... except for (the sacrifice of) repentance?
If they are still sinning they never "received the knowledge of thee truth".
If they still commit sin, what did they repent of at the start of their walk?
If they are still walking after the flesh, the Spirit of God is not in them.
"6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:6-9)

It is up to them whether or not they want to really be Christians, and Jesus, our advocate is available to them.
 
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SkyWriting

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My faith is in Jesus, of course.
But, my salvation is a covenant between God and myself.
We both have our parts to play in my salvation.
I must co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit in my salvation process.

Please do heed the dozens of warnings in the NT,
some of which are obvious warnings about losing salvation.

The warnings are about legalism.
This is why they can be brought back....legalists are still believers.
 
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Just as a child can choose whether or not to cooperate with his/her parents while they're raising their child to be according to their values. Of course the parents don't disown the child if he/she doesn't love the parents enough, or doesn't always obey, and the child remains the son/daughter of the parents. As we are born again into the family of God, we are born of the flesh into a family on earth, and no lack of love undoes being born to a particular set of parents. Being born of the Spirit of God is no less significant.
Congratulations for a wonderful explanation of man's point of view!
However, God's view of things is quite different (ref: the NT).
 
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The warnings are about legalism.
This is why they can be brought back....legalists are still believers.

Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life in Luke 10:25-28. Jesus tells the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments; These commandments were in reference to the Moral Law, like: Do not steal, do not covet, do not murder, etc. (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Granted, while we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace), Jesus and His followers did appear to also teach that we need to obey His commands as a part of having eternal life or salvation, too.

John says if a person hates their brother, they are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). So I fail to see how you can read the Bible and ignore these parts of Scripture. If you don't ignore them, then how do you explain them in light of the context and or cross references?
 
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Chastising is for those who will heed the correction. Not everyone will heed the correction. They are not brain washed to be a certain way forever. Hence, why the son was said to be dead when he went prodigal. Dead sons cannot join in on family picnics or get togethers. They are dead and buried. Ever heard of the verse that says that the children of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness?

Also, the son was said to be lost, too. Generally when we talk about the word "lost" in the Bible it is referring to somebody that is not saved.

You seem to have missed what I was pointing out. Again, why was the father waiting for his "dead" son if the son was considered to be "dead and buried", as you put it? If you lose a loved one, attend their funeral and watch them be buried, do you sit and watch for them to come back home as the father in the parable did?
As for being "brainwashed" forever, what are you referring to?
 
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Congratulations for a wonderful explanation of man's point of view!
However, God's view of things is quite different (ref: the NT).

God gave us the family structure as an example of how the family of God works. Or do you think that an earthly father is more forgiving and patient than God is? Read Matthew 7:11
 
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God gave us the family structure as an example of how the family of God works. Or do you think that an earthly father is more forgiving and patient than God is? Read Matthew 7:11
OK, now how many dozens of NT verses ...
would you like me to give you and ask you to read?
 
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