Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, but let us emphasize that Jesus is talking about those who are IN Him
... people who believe in Him, etc. ... BACs, supposedly!

Amen my friend that is exactly my point, not to mention that this entire message is being spoken only to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles who were undoubtedly believers.

 

[Phil W]

Sorry, this makes no sense ... you have contradicted thyself.

If one is saved...at the final judgement, it is permanent.
It's FSAS
Finally saved, always saved.

 

[Phil W]

Salvation does not always mean salvation to eternal life. Romans 10 is an example. read the whole chapter and stop taking a verse and say this says that, so this is what it means.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness ( this is a persons eternal life salvation) and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (this is a believers physical salvation who may be in trouble) .
14 How then shall they call on Him(confession) in whom they have not believed? a person must first have believed in the Messiah for eternal life before they can call on the Messiah for help.

We're done.
There is no reason to continue our conversation.

Here are some verses from John you can hang you hat on...
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
Has you doctrine made you a non-sinner?
If so, it is the truth.

 

[Phil W]

Are true believers free of Carnal failure, in the flesh, though declared sinless by being in the Holy Spirit?

In other words, are Believers, this side of Heaven Free Of the Romans 7 struggle?

Yes, (as Paul was narrating his own PAST while under the Mosaic Law for most of Rom 7).

 

[Phil W]

IMO, true believers are NOT declared sinless because they have the Holy Spirit.
They're supposed to be, have the ability to be, are called to be, etc.
But, when they fall in to sin, are they sinless?
They are never truly free of the Romans 7 struggle.
Check James 1:12-15 ... it's all about overcoming temptation!
Impossible before becoming a BAC ... possible afterwards!
That's why Jesus came, isn't it.

Sinfulness can only precede being born again.
Nothing can counter the seed that remains in us.
Grape vines cannot bear figs!

 

[Phil W]

Romans 7 is about BAC from your perspective? It is from mine.

Not from mine.
Rom 7 is the transition between fleshly and Spiritual walks
Paul laments his times of failure while under the Law of Moses, but by the end of the chapter points to the answers to his laments.
Like..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (7:23)...
...is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
And..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (7:24)...
...is answered in Rom 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Chapter 6 is the end of the "flesh", and chapter 8 is our walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

 

[Grip Docility]

Not from mine.
Rom 7 is the transition between fleshly and Spiritual walks
Paul laments his times of failure while under the Law of Moses, but by the end of the chapter points to the answers to his laments.
Like..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (7:23)...
...is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
And..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (7:24)...
...is answered in Rom 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Chapter 6 is the end of the "flesh", and chapter 8 is our walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

This theology is not under the Law, but all other Christians are, if I remember correctly?

 

[Phil W]

This theology is not under the Law, but all other Christians are, if I remember correctly?

What are you "remembering"?

 

[def]

Doing our part consist of only one condition.

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

I have not seen John 6:28-29 interpreted, so, here it is.

The disciples are asking for a 'pre-requisite' (work the works) for doing the works of God. And the pre-requisite is to believe in Him. This belief cannot be the believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, the events are yet to occur when Jesus was speaking. This refers to the trusting faith in God. And Paul explains that the righteousness of God {righteous works of God} is by the faith of Christ (Romans 3:22).

Ephesians 2:10 explains that God prepares works for His people. Is Ephesians 2:10 part of salvation by grace - for by grace are you saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8)? The conjunction 'for' suggests it is part of the explanation of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[BCsenior]

Sinfulness can only precede being born again.

In Romans 6 ...
Paul strongly warned those believers about being slaves of sin (which they were).
In Romans 7 ...
Paul bemoaned the fact that he continued to struggle with sin.

Did these BACs still have man's inherited sin nature?

 

[BCsenior]

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

The disciples are asking for a 'pre-requisite' (work the works) for doing the works of God. And the pre-requisite is to believe in Him.

It usually comes down to ...
exactly WHAT does the word "believe" in our NTs really mean?

Heads Up: What it means cannot possibly be stated in ONE little English word.

Another Heads Up:
What some of us are sharing here is NOT taught in 99% of N.A. churches.
(No, N.A. does not stand for Northern Afghanistan.)

 

[nolidad]

Sir, in the face of such verses like 2 Timothy 2:12

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

I don't know how you can say such a thing. I am baffled really. If you still say yes after such verses, then what more can I say to you, being as that you completely ignore such scripture.

I bid you good day sir, and take care.

Your error here is that you place this verse and have to implicitly add- If we deny HIm, after we have accepted HIm and we were given the gift of eternal ife and will never perish, then He will deny us!

See without having to add all these unwritten qualifications into verses as they are inspired to be written I can show a biblical truth:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 13:24-30 King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

the bible clearly shows that there are many people who look like Christians, talk like Christians, and even act like Christians for a time! But in the end they leave for they never were Christians. It is not our job to figure out what is gods decision only!

then remember the story of the prodigal son- He never lost HIs sonship. Matter of fact when He tried to make his canned plea- His Father wouldn't hear of it! He always was a son- just a disobedient son for a season.

I am sorry you think god is an Indian giver and that teh blood of Jesus is not adequate to forgive every sin the momnet we ask HIm..''

YOu preac a conditional salvation based on making sure we do not do X amount of bad works in X amount of time!

 

[nolidad]

Yes, the NT paints a picture of salvation being attained by
following Jesus on a very narrow road indeed.
But, I wonder if the NT isn't into a bit of bluffing, exaggerating, etc.
Your thoughts?

Sorry BCsenior. It is not following Jesus on a narrow path- Jesus is that path.

Good works do not save nor do they maintain salvation. Bad works do not harm salvation or remove salvation.

True salvation produces a change of character in an enemy of God and makes them a child agives them a new desire to serve their King and Creator!

Any good works I do are because I am loved by my Savior not to keep His love and I do them because I am eternally saved- not to try to maintain my salvation which is kept by Jesus anyway!

Anything else is Satans subtle lie to get us to look to ourselves to see how well we are doing instead of to Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith!

 

[nolidad]

Deuteronomy 31 says,

5 "And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:5-6).

Well then circumcise yourself, take up the animal sacrificial system and do all the other things those commands were issued to, OT Israel.

Yet, if you were to keep reading, Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

We should have a fearful reverence for God- but you should have finished the thought- for it is God who works in you both to will (want to) and to do (enables) of His good pleasure.

I do not walk around in phobic fear of the one who loves me! I do fear failing to please HIm- not because I may lose my salvation or may He may take me behind the woodshed, but because He loves me so, I do not want to not do what He desires of me!

The Lord never leaving or forsaking you is in context to keeping His commandments.

No it is not- nothing in the context is about keeping HIs commandments.

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! An unsaved person has no will nor desire to choose god.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God

An unsaved person will never choose god unless god empowers him to receive HIm.


It is not Gods will that all be saved- It is Gods desire that all be saved. But nothing can contradict the will of God. If God wills some thing- it happens!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well then circumcise yourself, take up the animal sacrificial system and do all the other things those commands were issued to, OT Israel.

Yes, I realize we are not under the Old Covenant and it's commands. However, the principle behind how God operates remains the same. God is not going to radicatlly change in the way He deals with people between covenants besides the changing of the Laws. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. It does not say that God and His good character has changed. Besides, I also provided an NT verse to prove my case, as well. Hebrews 10:26 says that if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

We should have a fearful reverence for God- but you should have finished the thought- for it is God who works in you both to will (want to) and to do (enables) of His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13 does not undo what Philippians 2:12 says. Again, you are not reading and believing Philippians 2:12 that says that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? There is no need to fear God if you can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. You can live life however you like. No need to fear.

I do not walk around in phobic fear of the one who loves me! I do fear failing to please HIm- not because I may lose my salvation or may He may take me behind the woodshed, but because He loves me so, I do not want to not do what He desires of me!

Philippians 2:12 does not say such a thing. It says work out your salvation with fear. Fear. It also talks about salvation in relation to fear. Not sure how you can make this verse say something other than it does.

No it is not- nothing in the context is about keeping HIs commandments.

Yes, Hebrews 13:5 is in context to Hebrews 10:26 that says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Sin is transgression of the Law (i.e. commandment) (1 John 3:4).

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! An unsaved person has no will nor desire to choose god.

Then God can never judge anyone then. He would be placing on trial people for something they had no control over. That would be like a master who kicks his dog across the room for pooping on the carpet (with the master knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem). It would be unfair of the master to punish the animal in this way because it has no control to release hot steamy piles of brown goodness all over his precious carpets.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Not applicable here. Anyone can use this verse to justify any number of odd beliefs about the Bible that are not true. Just quoting this verse to prove your belief is not proof of such.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God

Yes. The flesh is in reference to sin in this verse. They that are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God. Romans 8:13 says if a person lives after the flesh (sin) they will die (die spiritually), and if a person puts to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) via the Spirit, they will live (live spiritually).

An unsaved person will never choose god unless god empowers him to receive HIm.

Yes, I believe in Prevenient Grace. But Calvinism's Unconditional Election is not biblical.

It is not Gods will that all be saved- It is Gods desire that all be saved. But nothing can contradict the will of God. If God wills some thing- it happens!

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?

 

[Phil W]

In Romans 6 ...
Paul strongly warned those believers about being slaves of sin (which they were).
In Romans 7 ...
Paul bemoaned the fact that he continued to struggle with sin.

Paul is referring to his preconversion time in the flesh as a Jewish adherent of the Mosaic Law...and failing.
He mentions his now dead flesh in verses 5 and 18, differentiating them from his narrative state.
As I earlier mentioned, Rom 7 is a transition chapter between the death of the flesh and the walk in the Spirit.
Paul's flesh was killed in Romans 6:6, and the results are listed in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Did these BACs still have man's inherited sin nature?

No BAC has anything left of the old creature..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

 

[Phil W]

Your error here is that you place this verse and have to implicitly add- If we deny HIm, after we have accepted HIm and we were given the gift of eternal ife and will never perish, then He will deny us!

See without having to add all these unwritten qualifications into verses as they are inspired to be written I can show a biblical truth:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 13:24-30 King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

the bible clearly shows that there are many people who look like Christians, talk like Christians, and even act like Christians for a time! But in the end they leave for they never were Christians. It is not our job to figure out what is gods decision only!

then remember the story of the prodigal son- He never lost HIs sonship. Matter of fact when He tried to make his canned plea- His Father wouldn't hear of it! He always was a son- just a disobedient son for a season.

I am sorry you think god is an Indian giver and that teh blood of Jesus is not adequate to forgive every sin the momnet we ask HIm..''

YOu preac a conditional salvation based on making sure we do not do X amount of bad works in X amount of time!

If they were "never of us", they never received anything from God that could be taken away.

 

[BCsenior]

Hebrews 10:26 says that if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

How can we possibly understand this verse?

Perhaps, a sacrifice is not needed for the BAC who willfully sins
... except for (the sacrifice of) repentance?

 

[BCsenior]

Do you believe in Unconditional Election?

Perhaps, this is the condition ...
In the OT, it says (in several places) that God desires
to dwell with those who have humble and contrite hearts.
So IMO, this is who He chooses for salvation.

Also IMO, He has to give these people a seed of faith
to enable them to believe.
Remember Lydia in Acts 16:14 ...
"The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Is this only in her case, or did the rest of us folks CHOOSE for ourselves?
Nah ... too many NT verses against it.

 

[BCsenior]

Continuing post #179 ...

However, we do get to CHOOSE whether we co-operate with
the precious Holy Spirit as He endeavors to sanctify us unto holiness
... so we will be acceptable to Father God for entrance into heaven.