The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Saint Steven]

If the "ungodly" cities Sodom and Gomorrha were "condemned" to "burning them to ashes", then what are you missing in their "judgment" to come?

MAT 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Tell me Steve "why would the Bible make such declaration if they will be undone?", in the judgment or judgments that are yet to take place?

That's not really the point here.
And as you know, there are many types of judgments.

Sodom is being given as an example of what will happen to the ungodly. Which is described as "burning them to ashes" rather than restoration.

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.

 

[Saint Steven]

0684 apoleia: ruin or loss (phys., spiritual or eternal)

Of course the "eternal" part of the above orthodox definition also came centuries after the original definition too. That's just the way the religious wheel turns.

So, now you are claiming both "orthodox" definitions and "original" definitions ? ???
Are you saying that orthodoxy messed with the Lexicon too?

 

[Saint Steven]

I know they qualify it, but let me ask you, if people are dead, burned to ashes, forgotten by men and their names are blotted out before God, they are still dead, aren't they? In that case, Death cannot be defeated...so how is that a weak argument? I'm just taking the concept to its logical conclusion.

When something is "defeated", it is prevented from going any further. A defeat doesn't undo the damage already done. We defeated the Third Reich in WWII, but we didn't undo what they did. only prevented them from continuing.

Furthermore, what kind of death are we talking about? Physical or spiritual, or both? Death is a part of life. And life is a part of death. The scripture below illustrates how complicated this discussion can get. Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead?

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Please remember that my position on Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism is that all three are supported in the Bible, which makes no sense. (they are in conflict) Therefore, I don't expect that my discussion will be any more sensible. The burden of proof is on those who claim it makes sense. Here we are at page 147 and I have yet to see a solid argument. Compelling points, yes; solid argument, no.

 

[FineLinen]

Please remember that my position on Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism is that all three are supported in the Bible, which makes no sense. (they are in conflict) Therefore, I don't expect that my discussion will be any more sensible. The burden of proof is on those who claim it makes sense. Here we are at page 147 and I have yet to see a solid argument. Compelling points, yes; solid argument, no.

Mark 4:12 so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.'"

"Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear."

"Bring out a people who have eyes but are blind, and who have ears but are deaf."

 

[Hillsage]

That's not really the point here.
And as you know, there are many types of judgments.

Sodom is being given as an example of what will happen to the ungodly. Which is described as "burning them to ashes" rather than restoration.

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.

I'm saying that if you don't meet the standard of God for immortality 'in the garden', in the OT OR in the NT your body will become ashes to ashes or dust to dust. I say that because you are right, there are multiple judgments as the ages march toward the plan God has for Him.

 

[Hillsage]

So, now you are claiming both "orthodox" definitions and "original" definitions ? ???
Are you saying that orthodoxy messed with the Lexicon too?

Earth to Steve, God never wrote a lexicon. I once had an elder, who had been the leader of a home group I was in years earlier, say to me; "D you know who told me that the commentary notes in the margin of my bible weren't 'the bible'?" I didn't know who he was talking about and I said "NO." He said "You did." He said it was a slap in his face to reality and he had never forgotten that statement. A statement which was made when we were discussing a passage that the anti charismatic author of that 'study bible' of his, was simply and FUNDAMENTALLY wrong about.

 

[FineLinen]

"God is not only King and Judge, God is Father – he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.

The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God." -Dr. Wm. Barclay-

 

[Saint Steven]

Mark 4:12 so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.'"

"Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear."

"Bring out a people who have eyes but are blind, and who have ears but are deaf."

Is that all you have to say for the failure of this thread?

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm saying that if you don't meet the standard of God for immortality 'in the garden', in the OT OR in the NT your body will become ashes to ashes or dust to dust. I say that because you are right, there are multiple judgments as the ages march toward the plan God has for Him.

So, you don't believe in the immortality of the soul?

 

[Saint Steven]

Earth to Steve, God never wrote a lexicon.

I know that. And also that margin notes and footnotes in the Bible are manmade.
But are you claiming that orthodoxy messed with the original NT Greek word definitions?

 

[Wrangler]

From the view that God can do anything, that is certainly a possibility.

However, it would need to include, and or resolve, the damned/annihilated being burned to ashes and having their names blotted out.

So, you think people who are cremated ruin their chance to go to heaven?

I think the Bible does explain and I believe I've already posted it several times in this thread.

 

[Hillsage]

So, you don't believe in the immortality of the soul?

The 'soul', when defined as the immaterial 'mind, will, emotion, desires' of a functioning material/brain, is both mortal and immortal IMO. It just depends on what part of your 'mind, will, emotion, desires' is 'of Father God' when you die, and which part is 'of the Father of lies'. Any strongholds of thinking with 'emotions, desires, will and mind' that are of the devil must be killed/destroyed before you're allowed in heaven. If not, then as I already said in an 'earlier post, Grasshopper' ; you just have a hell raiser on earth going to heaven to do what? To act just like the devil taught him to behave, before he died bodily...sitting in a church pew with his 'eternal FIRE insurance policy to keep him from going to gehenna/hell. A policy sold by the nominal church agency.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.

In this verse above, who is it you fear, killing/destroying your soul....the devil, or God?

0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the Bible does explain and I believe I've already posted it several times in this thread.

Well... your reward is in heaven then. Good job.

 

[Saint Steven]

The 'soul', when defined as the immaterial 'mind, will, emotion, desires' of a functioning material/brain, is both mortal and immortal IMO. It just depends on what part of your 'mind, will, emotion, desires' is 'of Father God' when you die, and which part is 'of the Father of lies'. Any strongholds of thinking with 'emotions, desires, will and mind' that are of the devil must be killed/destroyed before you're allowed in heaven. If not, then as I already said in an 'earlier post, Grasshopper' ; you just have a hell raiser on earth going to heaven to do what? To act just like the devil taught him to behave, before he died bodily...sitting in a church pew with his 'eternal FIRE insurance policy to keep him from going to gehenna/hell. A policy sold by the nominal church agency.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.

In this verse above, who is it you fear, killing/destroying your soul....the devil, or God?

0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.

Yes, I have always understood Matt.10:28 as referring to God destroying us. (annihilationism)

I view the soul as being our personal identity as well as our mind/will/emotions. As if our brain were a computer hard drive and the soul is the data on it. The data can be transferred from one place to another, like a computer hard drive. I think that is what is happening in a NDE. The soul/mind is operating outside of the brain.

If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? -- lol

 

[Hillsage]

I know that. And also that margin notes and footnotes in the Bible are manmade.
But are you claiming that orthodoxy messed with the original NT Greek word definitions?

You are the one who keeps noting how many pages this thread is lately.....and you still don't know the answer we keep giving over and over to that question? YES! YES! YES!

 

[Wrangler]

You are the one who keeps noting how many pages this thread is lately.....and you still don't know the answer we keep giving over and over to that question? YES! YES! YES!

Excellent post!!

Some do not have ears to hear.

 

[Hillsage]

I know that. And also that margin notes and footnotes in the Bible are manmade.
But are you claiming that orthodoxy messed with the original NT Greek word definitions?

PS I forgot to add; Martin Luther thought that ORTHODOXY messed with the whole bible, translating Hebrew and Greek to Latin. DO you study out of a Catholic bible today? Why not?

THAT WAS orthodoxy before the PRO TESTAMENT believers....or Protestants became the NEW ORTHODOXY with its own set of scribal deceptions AND faithful defenders of their doctrinal box of disagreements with the 'first' orthodoxy.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some do not have ears to hear.

Some do not have lips to speak, which prevents ears from hearing.
Should we blame the ears for that?

 

[Saint Steven]

PS I forgot to add; Martin Luther thought that ORTHODOXY messed with the whole bible, translating Hebrew and Greek to Latin. DO you study out of a Catholic bible today? Why not?

THAT WAS orthodoxy before the PRO TESTAMENT believers....or Protestants became the NEW ORTHODOXY with its own set of scribal deceptions AND faithful defenders of their doctrinal box of disagreements with the 'first' orthodoxy.

It's a jungle out there.
Bible, Bible, who's got the Bible?