• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Contradiction?

TommySoda

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
159
39
30
NY
✟44,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In the Bible it’s clear that children are not suppose to be punished for the sins of their parents Ezekiel 18:20

“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

However it seems like David’s children were punished for his sin with Bathsheba
(2 Samuel 12:10)
“Now therefore, the sword will never leave your house because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hethite to be your own wife.“ or in some translations

“Now, in every generation some of your descendants will die a violent death because you have disobeyed me and have taken Uriah's wife.”

David’s son’s died and Tāmār was raped.

Can someone explain this?
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: GreekOrthodox

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟196,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Our families have a tremendous influence on us, good and bad. God isn't saying HE is going to cause these things. He is saying that you, David, through your sin have triggered a series of events that will negatively effect your family for generations. Or, this example you set for your kids is going to have lasting consequences. This happens all the time in families.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JCFantasy23
Upvote 0

TommySoda

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
159
39
30
NY
✟44,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Our families have a tremendous influence on us, good and bad. God isn't saying HE is going to cause these things. He is saying that you, David, through your sin have triggered a series of events that will negatively effect your family for generations. Or, this example you set for your kids is going to have lasting consequences. This happens all the time in families.
That’s fine but the way it’s worded makes it seems like it’s direct judgment considering he said “since you despise the word of the Lord”
 
Upvote 0

GospelS

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!
Site Supporter
Aug 1, 2017
3,008
3,048
37
She is The Land!
✟610,010.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Samuel 12:10 was in the past. That punishment was specific to David. That happened under the law. God demands payment for sins in order to continue life of that person. God is just no matter what he demands and decides.

In Ezekiel 18:3 God said, ....this shall no longer be. This is grace. Now we have Christ who took our sins and died in our place and thus we shall live.
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟196,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That’s fine but the way it’s worded makes it seems like it’s direct judgment considering he said “since you despise the word of the Lord”

ok, so this is by no means a perfect analogy, but think about it like this:

My kids hate to take medicine (what kids do). If one of them has a headache, but refuses to take medicine that would help, I could say: "Since you despise this medicine Dad tried to give you, your headache will get worse before it gets better"

Now instead of medicine to help with an existing condition, God's word is preventative medicine (and it doesn't taste bad, although some think it does) to help prevent the condition in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,440
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That’s fine but the way it’s worded makes it seems like it’s direct judgment considering he said “since you despise the word of the Lord”
By despising the word of the Lord, just as we can do today, he indulged his flesh instead. And that led to consequences just as it can today. It doesn't mean that God purposely punished the children. That's just a kind of lens many of us have been taught to read Scripture through.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,093
6,482
Utah
✟865,089.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That’s fine but the way it’s worded makes it seems like it’s direct judgment considering he said “since you despise the word of the Lord”

Yes, it was a direct judgement against David ... in that David would see the consequences/results of his (David's actions - sin) ... because David despised the Lord (sinned) David would see how they (His sin) effected family members for generations.

So the judgement was the Lord would allow the consequences/results of secret (sin) to be exposed ... to be seen

and actually not just David would see but all of Israel

12 You have acted in secret, but I will do this thing (allow the consequences/results of Davids secret actions (sin) to be seen) in broad daylight before all Israel.’

Good lesson/reminder in this for us ... our sin and the consequences/results thereof don't just necessarily effect us it effects others.
 
Upvote 0

TommySoda

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
159
39
30
NY
✟44,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
ok, so this is by no means a perfect analogy, but think about it like this:

My kids hate to take medicine (what kids do). If one of them has a headache, but refuses to take medicine that would help, I could say: "Since you despise this medicine Dad tried to give you, your headache will get worse before it gets better"

Now instead of medicine to help with an existing condition, God's word is preventative medicine (and it doesn't taste bad, although some think it does) to help prevent the condition in the first place.
I understand the analogy but in that situation not taking the medicine has a natural consequence (headache). God predicted what would happen and seem to have a role in the events to occur. Giving the implications that it wasn’t just natural occurring events and that he purposely meant for that to happen. Which is fine but David’s children were punished in the process (one of them actually being raped) and conflicts with other scriptures about children not receiving punishment.
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟196,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I understand the analogy but in that situation not taking the medicine has a natural consequence (headache). God predicted what would happen and seem to have a role in the events to occur. Giving the implications that it wasn’t just natural occurring events and that he purposely meant for that to happen. Which is fine but David’s children were punished in the process (one of them actually being raped) and conflicts with other scriptures about children not receiving punishment.
That's kinda my point. Bad behavior by parents has natural (ie headache) consequences on kids. God was able to predict it because He's God, but that doesn't mean He's the cause. I don't see that anywhere in the text.

For example, God didn't make Amnon rape Tamar, that was on Amnon and Amnon alone, it was not a punishment from God. But growing up in what we call today a dysfunctional family... especially in the area of sexual behavior, clearly would have had a strong influence on Amnon and contributed to his bad behavior. God simply saw it coming and rebuked David (and by extension teaching us) to show him the lasting impact decisions like this have. Again, we see this all the time today.
 
Upvote 0

TommySoda

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
159
39
30
NY
✟44,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's kinda my point. Bad behavior by parents has natural (ie headache) consequences on kids. God was able to predict it because He's God, but that doesn't mean He's the cause. I don't see that anywhere in the text.

For example, God didn't make Amnon rape Tamar, that was on Amnon and Amnon alone, it was not a punishment from God. But growing up in what we call today a dysfunctional family... especially in the area of sexual behavior, clearly would have had a strong influence on Amnon and contributed to his bad behavior. God simply saw it coming and rebuked David (and by extension teaching us) to show him the lasting impact decisions like this have. Again, we see this all the time today.
I dunno, I just can’t see how this isn’t a punishment from God

“Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity” God is clearly upset with everything David did and then says that. It sounds like punishment to me but I’m always open to different interpretations.
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟196,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I dunno, I just can’t see how this isn’t a punishment from God

“Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity” God is clearly upset with everything David did and then says that. It sounds like punishment to me but I’m always open to different interpretations.

Well at this point I guess the question is, do you want it to mean punishment? If so, then that will likely be what you always see regardless of what anyone says. What I've laid out is perfectly reasonable AND it lines up much more with nature of God we see demonstrated by Jesus than punishment does.

Sometimes when we get stuck on "which interpretation" to use, we need to look at what we know about God's nature as demonstrated by Jesus to help guide us. That's one of the reasons He came.
 
Upvote 0

TommySoda

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
159
39
30
NY
✟44,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well at this point I guess the question is, do you want it to mean punishment? If so, then that will likely be what you always see regardless of what anyone says. What I've laid out is perfectly reasonable AND it lines up much more with nature of God we see demonstrated by Jesus than punishment does.

Sometimes when we get stuck on "which interpretation" to use, we need to look at what we know about God's nature as demonstrated by Jesus to help guide us. That's one of the reasons He came.
I guess it’s maybe I’m reading it literally and you’re reading it between the lies. I’m a very literal person so phrases like “I’m going to.....” means to mean he’s directly playing a part. I could be wrong however and your interpretation and analogy could be 100 percent correct.
 
Upvote 0

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟196,660.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I guess it’s maybe I’m reading it literally and you’re reading it between the lies. I’m a very literal person so phrases like “I’m going to.....” means to mean he’s directly playing a part. I could be wrong however and your interpretation and analogy could be 100 percent correct.
Ah, I see. Many times in the OT when God says things like "I'm going to" it means more like "I will be the reason for" meaning that the actions and choices of man will revolve around God... Often rejecting Him. So if someone rejects what He says and does something out of spite towards God, God didn't make it happen directly Himself, but He was still the cause in a sense. This was a more common manner of speaking back then.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
45,418
6,929
✟1,054,579.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In the Bible it’s clear that children are not suppose to be punished for the sins of their parents Ezekiel 18:20

(2 Samuel 12:10)
“Now therefore, the sword will never leave your house because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hethite to be your own wife.“ or in some translations

“Now, in every generation some of your descendants will die a violent death because you have disobeyed me and have taken Uriah's wife.”

David’s son’s died and Tāmār was raped.

Can someone explain this?

Sure. 2 Samuel was written long before Ezekiel was written.
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
80
Southern Ga.
✟165,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
In the Bible it’s clear that children are not suppose to be punished for the sins of their parents Ezekiel 18:20

“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

However it seems like David’s children were punished for his sin with Bathsheba
(2 Samuel 12:10)
“Now therefore, the sword will never leave your house because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hethite to be your own wife.“ or in some translations

“Now, in every generation some of your descendants will die a violent death because you have disobeyed me and have taken Uriah's wife.”

David’s son’s died and Tāmār was raped.

Can someone explain this?


David lived 1,000 BC, Ezekiel lived 500 BC.

What Ezekiel said was 500 yrs after David, therefore what Ezekiel said did not apply to Davis case.

It doesn't mater about who did what to who, it only matters when he did it.

David was living under a different (Dispensation) where the sins of the Parents were visited upon the children to the 3rd. and 4th. generation.

Don't complicate it, we live under the (Dispensation) of Grace, what happened in the past does not apply to us, that is all we need to know, if we are looking for just causes of the past, you won't find it except in the understanding,
("God is a Just God") and then be satisfied with that understanding, don't try to judge what God was doing back in the long ago by what you as a person of today might think you understand about Mercy, Forgiveness, because humans haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what God knows about the subject.
 
Upvote 0

Stephen Douglas

Active Member
Feb 8, 2016
179
52
70
New Kent Virginia
✟28,787.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The child shall not share the guilt of the parent but the effects of the sinfulness of the parent extends deep into the descendants, sometimes for generations. This is the reason that sin is so heinous. We sin against God because we spiritually and practically corrupt ourselves and everything around us.

Doug
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,867
2,673
Livingston County, MI, US
✟225,741.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
people are punished by god because of a king's actions. this relates to whom David was. and, is not an universal principle on all people.

1 Chronicles 21:7-17 International Standard Version (ISV)

7 God considered this behavior[a] to be evil, so he attacked Israel. 8 David responded to God, “I sinned greatly by behaving this way. But now I am asking you, please remove the guilt of your servant, since I have acted very foolishly.”

9 So the Lord responded through Gad, David’s seer. 10 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: “I’m holding three choices out for you: pick one of them for yourself, and I will do it to you.”’”

11 Gad went to David and told him, “This is what the Lord says: ‘Make a choice for yourself: 12 Either three years of famine, or three months of reversals[c] as you are swept away by your enemies while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or three days with the sword of the Lord, consisting of pestilence infecting the land, with the angel of the Lord wreaking destruction from border to border throughout all[d] of Israel.’ Decide right now what I am to answer to the one who sent me.”

13 So David replied to Gad, “This is a very bad choice for me to make! Let me now please fall into the hand of the Lord, because his mercy is very great, but may I never fall into human hands!”

14 Then the Lord sent a pestilence to Israel, and 70,000 men died in Israel. 15 God also sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as he was about to do so, the Lord looked and withdrew[e] the calamity by saying to the destroying angel, “Enough! Stop what you’re doing!”[f]

So the angel of the Lord remained standing near the threshing floor that belonged to Ornan[g] the Jebusite.[h] 16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, with a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces.

17 David told God, “Wasn’t I the one who ordered the census of the population? Wasn’t it I who sinned and acted wickedly? Now as for these sheep, what have they done? Lord God, please let your hand be against me and my ancestral household, but don’t let your people be ravaged by plague!”
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In the Bible it’s clear that children are not suppose to be punished for the sins of their parents Ezekiel 18:20

“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

I think you're taking a specific application and trying to generalize into a theological principle. In this passage, Ezekiel is telling the descendants of the exiles that they will not be punished for the sins of the people who were responsible for the exile. Ezekiel goes on to describe how Israel would return from the Babylonian exile - a reversal of the judgment on their forebearers.

So, I'm not convinced this is a generalized principle dealing with anything other than the particular issues it was addressing. I'm not sure it's talking about generational sins, inherited guilt, original sin, etc.. It looks to me like it's talking about the particulars of Judah's exile and return.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,867
2,673
Livingston County, MI, US
✟225,741.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ezekiel 18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

18 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 2 “Why do you people say this proverb:

‘The parents ate the sour grapes,
but the children got the sour taste’[a]?”

3 But the Lord God says, “By my life, I swear that people in Israel will not think this proverb is true anymore! 4 I will treat everyone, child and parent, just the same. The one who sins is the one who will die!

5 “A person who is good will live! He is fair and does what is right. 6 He doesn’t go to the mountains to share food offered to idols. He doesn’t pray to those filthy idols in Israel. He doesn’t commit adultery with his neighbor’s wife or with a woman during her period. 7 He doesn’t take advantage of others. If someone borrows money from him, he might take something of value before he gives the money. But when that person pays him back, he returns what he took. He gives food to the hungry and clothes to people who need them. 8 If someone wants to borrow money from him, he lends the money and doesn’t charge interest on the loan. He refuses to be crooked. He is always fair with everyone. People can trust him. 9 He obeys my laws and studies my rules so that he can learn to be fair and dependable. He is good, so he will live.” This is what the Lord God said.

10 “But someone like that might have a son who does not do any of these good things. The son steals things and kills people. 11 He does things his father never did. He goes to the mountains and eats foods offered to false gods. He commits the sin of adultery with his neighbor’s wife. 12 He mistreats poor, helpless people. He takes advantage of them. When a debt is paid, he does not give back what he took from them. He prays to filthy idols and does other terrible things. 13 He lends money to people who need it, but he forces them to pay interest on the loan. The evil son will not be allowed to live. He will be put to death because he did such terrible things, and he will be responsible for his own death.

14 “Now, that evil son might also have a son. But this son sees the bad things his father did, and he refuses to live as his father did. He treats people fairly. 15 He does not go to the mountains and eat foods offered to false gods. He does not pray to filthy idols in Israel. He does not commit the sin of adultery with his neighbor’s wife. 16 He does not take advantage of people. If someone borrows money from him, the good son takes something of value and then gives the other person the money. When that person pays him back, the good son gives back what he took. The good son gives food to hungry people, and he gives clothes to those who need them. 17 He helps the poor. If people want to borrow money, the good son lends them the money, and he does not charge interest on the loan. He obeys my laws and follows them. He will not be put to death for his father’s sins. The good son will live. 18 The father hurts people and steals things. He never does anything good for my people! He will die because of his own sins.

19 “You might ask, ‘Why will the son not be punished for his father’s sins?’ The reason is that the son was fair and did good things. He very carefully obeyed my laws, so he will live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will be put to death. A son will not be punished for his father’s sins, and a father will not be punished for his son’s sins. A good man’s goodness belongs to him alone, and a bad man’s evil belongs to him alone.

21 “Now, if evil people change their lives, they will live and not die. They might stop doing all the bad things they did and begin to carefully obey all my laws. They might become fair and good. 22 God will not remember all the bad things they did. He will remember only their goodness, so they will live!”

23 The Lord God says, “I don’t want evil people to die. I want them to change their lives so that they can live!

24 “Now, maybe good people might stop being good. They might change their lives and begin to do all the terrible things that evil people have done in the past. (The evil people changed, so they can live.) So if those good people change and become bad, God will not remember all the good things they did. He will remember that they turned against him and began to sin. So they will die because of their sin.

25 “You people might say, ‘The Lord isn’t fair!’ But listen, family of Israel. I am fair. You are the ones who are not fair! 26 If good people change and become evil, they must die for the bad things they do. 27 And if evil people change and become good and fair, they will save their lives. They will live! 28 They saw how wicked they were and came back to me. They stopped doing the evil things they did in the past. So they will live! They will not die!”

29 The people of Israel said, “That’s not fair! The Lord isn’t fair!”

“I am fair! You are the ones who are not fair! 30 Why? Because, family of Israel, I will judge each of you only for what you do!” This is what the Lord God said. “So come back to me! Stop committing those crimes and do away with those things that cause you to sin! 31 Throw away all the terrible idols with which you committed your crimes! Change your heart and spirit. People of Israel, why should you do things that will cost you your life? 32 I don’t want to kill you! Please come back and live!” This is what the Lord God said.
 
Upvote 0

DrinkFanta74

Member
Nov 2, 2019
5
1
26
West Hills
✟23,017.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In the Bible it’s clear that children are not suppose to be punished for the sins of their parents Ezekiel 18:20

“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

However it seems like David’s children were punished for his sin with Bathsheba
(2 Samuel 12:10)
“Now therefore, the sword will never leave your house because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hethite to be your own wife.“ or in some translations

“Now, in every generation some of your descendants will die a violent death because you have disobeyed me and have taken Uriah's wife.”

David’s son’s died and Tāmār was raped.

Can someone explain this?

Do Children Inherit the Sin of Their Parents?

The Death of David’s Son
 
Upvote 0