Why God allows evil

[MyChainsAreGone]

It's irrefutable...

No it isn't.

Then please, tell me how anything matters at all within a naturalistic world view. Why does life matter. Why does sentience matter?

At the big bang, No life existed and no one knew anything.

When our sun goes supernova, it will destroy our little planet... and there will be no life and no one will know anything.

Why does that period of time in between matter at all?

 

[Kylie]

Then please, tell me how anything matters at all within a naturalistic world view. Why does life matter. Why does sentience matter?

At the big bang, No life existed and no one knew anything.

When our sun goes supernova, it will destroy our little planet... and there will be no life and no one will know anything.

Why does that period of time in between matter at all?

You seem to think things only have value if that value is determined by an outside source.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

You seem to think things only have value if that value is determined by an outside source.

Spot on. (For the record, God is that outside source).

And you seem to think that something can have value within an naturalistic context.

Between one big bang and the ultimate implosion of everything... nothing can matter.

Kylie, if you're just the chance product of evolution, you're life isn't worth anything. Your thoughts and dreams are of no consequence. Your impending death doesn't matter. And the same is true for me.

But the good news is that God is real. He made you. He loves you. He considers you to be of inestimable value. He loves you so much that He sent Jesus to pay the penalty for all the wrong and evil that you are accountable for before the holy and righteous God. He has not been passive... He has not ignored "evil"... He's made a way to forgive that evil... not just in your heart or mine, but every heart.

I truly hope that you open your heart to Him. Meaning in life isn't found in science--as interesting and as informative as scientific knowledge is--it's found in relationship with the God who made you.

 

[Ken-1122]

Nothing is truly and actually "wrong" if it is "right" for some people.

Try to give it some other label like "subjectivism" doesn't change that.

According to Hitler, Genocide was right for him. So if what you are saying is true, nothing is truly and actually wrong.

Again, this thread is about GOD and real "evil"... not about GOD what "most" people think about what they would consider "evil". If we cannot have an absolute standard of morality, why would we even think about applying subjectivist notions to the question of God?

I think you guys are applying objective notions to the question of God.

Now these are Good questions.

The answers really come from the definition of "God"... which is not really what this debate is about... although it's probably accurate to say that there's not anything close to agreement about the definition.

God is sometimes described as the "Uncaused Cause." Everything has to be caused by something else... but at some point, you have to get back to a cause that started it all... the one Cause Agent that without any cause itself.

That there must be a "first cause" is logically inescapable. For some, it is the "Big Bang" (or the first of many "Big Bangs"). Others are more comfortable with calling the "First Cause" or the "uncaused Cause" God. Science teaches us a lot, but the scientific method cannot provide us with the answer of which of these two views is correct.

This forum and this thread takes the second view.

What do you mean by “this forum and this thread takes the second view”? Are you saying the christian world view is YOUR opinion? Or something else; because I’m sure you are aware not everybody on this forum and this thread takes the second view.

So, the answer to your first question is that just as God is the "Cause" that needed not outside cause, He's also the morality that needs no outside validation.

That only works for those who worship that particular God. For those who don’t, he does need outside validation.

That statement is also the answer to your second question. Only the "Uncaused One" can be free from being held accountable, morally, to His/Its "maker." The reason is obvious... because He has no maker.

Again; that only works for Christians who accept their God as their moral Dictator.

And that highlights another good point to note... The entire notion of "morality" presumes that there must be some sort of "accountability" for one's actions. If there's absolutely no accountability, then what's the point of calling anything "wrong" or "evil."

The answer to your third question is this... Just as the "Uncaused Cause" is THE source for all other things, so He is the source of anything we call "moral." He is the measure of morality. What He is... IS what is "moral."

These answers may not satisfy you, but I assert that they are innate in the very definition of the concept of "God."

This is why, for the record, why it is so logically inconsistent to attempt to assert ANY morality in a belief system that denies God and only asserts natural causes for everything. If everything is an "accident," that happened without any meaning, then morality is just an accidental concept without any meaning.

All of your responses are from the Christian viewpoint, thus they only make sense if you are Christian. I am not Christian so they make no sense to me. But thanks for the reply anyway.

 

[Ken-1122]

3. My response to your words here is that if you believe evil is just a human label for things that change generation by generation, it is totally illogical to judge God based on the changing moral whims of mankind.

Then you shouldn’t claim God is good to people who judge “good” based on the changing moral whims of mankind. You should clarify that God is good to some other standard; perhaps a standard he invented himself.
But then we all can be defined as “good” if we get to dictate the standard of which we are judged by; right???

 

[Ken-1122]

Only the "Uncaused One" can be free from being held accountable, morally, to His/Its "maker." The reason is obvious... because He has no maker.

But God IS held morally accountable; people judge God as good or bad all the time! Perhaps YOU don’t, but countless other people do; so if you are going to insist morality is objective, God cannot be the source of morality (because he is judged like everybody else) the source must be something that is not judged; something that is outside mankind and God. Otherwise morality is subjective to the whims of God! Which is no better than it being subjective to the whims of mankind.

 

[Kylie]

Spot on. (For the record, God is that outside source).

Citation required.

And you seem to think that something can have value within an naturalistic context.

I think we can ascribe our own value to things rather than having value determined by an outside source.

Between one big bang and the ultimate implosion of everything... nothing can matter.

Why not? Why is it that value can only be attributed by an outside source?

Kylie, if you're just the chance product of evolution, you're life isn't worth anything. Your thoughts and dreams are of no consequence. Your impending death doesn't matter. And the same is true for me.

But the good news is that God is real. He made you. He loves you. He considers you to be of inestimable value. He loves you so much that He sent Jesus to pay the penalty for all the wrong and evil that you are accountable for before the holy and righteous God. He has not been passive... He has not ignored "evil"... He's made a way to forgive that evil... not just in your heart or mine, but every heart.

I truly hope that you open your heart to Him. Meaning in life isn't found in science--as interesting and as informative as scientific knowledge is--it's found in relationship with the God who made you.

This is a typical advertisement. Create a fear of being without the product being sold, and then offer the product as a way to alleviate that fear. Whether it's creating the fear that you'll have wrinkles, fear of not having the latest iphone, of fear of death, it's all the same.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

But God IS held morally accountable; people judge God as good or bad all the time! Perhaps YOU don’t, but countless other people do; so if you are going to insist morality is objective, God cannot be the source of morality (because he is judged like everybody else) the source must be something that is not judged; something that is outside mankind and God. Otherwise morality is subjective to the whims of God! Which is no better than it being subjective to the whims of mankind.

The concept of accountability includes the power/authority to render both judgment and consequences. People "judge" God all the time, sure. But there's not a thing that they can do to Him if they disapprove of His actions or motives.

So... that's not accountability.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Spot on. (For the record, God is that outside source).

Citation required.

Citation NOT required... when I use the term "God," that's what it means. God, as the originator of all things (by definition) is therefore the measure of all things (by definition).

I think we can ascribe our own value to things rather than having value determined by an outside source.

Any dumb rock that tells itself that it's more valuable than gold is still just a dumb rock.

Your statement is really just circular reasoning. How does a rock know how valuable it is? Just ask the rock! How does a cosmic accident (life) know how valuable it is? Just ask that cosmic accident (humans).

Why not? Why is it that value can only be attributed by an outside source?

Because meaning/value does not rise out of meaninglessness and worthlessness.

If the big bang was meaningless, how can anything that happened as a result have meaning? It's logically impossible.

For the record, you still have not given any tenable explanation how your life or any life can have any meaning at all within a naturalistic framework of origins. My "irrefutable" assertion remains un-refuted. The only thing you've given me is "I think we can" and "why not?"

This is a typical advertisement. Create a fear of being without the product being sold, and then offer the product as a way to alleviate that fear. Whether it's creating the fear that you'll have wrinkles, fear of not having the latest iphone, of fear of death, it's all the same.

Thankfully, it's not the same. Here's why.

God is waiting for you to come to Him. He's done His part. And when you reach the end of yourself, I want to make sure that you know that you can still turn to Him and find the purpose that He's really created you for. But hey, if you're not feeling that need yet, it's not your time yet.

He created people and He gave them their own choices (like we've been talking about... they can choose good or evil). And, just like He doesn't "overrule" people's evil choices, He also doesn't force people to respond to Him and His offer of forgiveness and restoration to a relationship with Him.

But I'd be remiss if I didn't at least let you know that He loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you. He's a gentlemen, though... He'll wait until you're ready.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Then you shouldn’t claim God is good to people who judge “good” based on the changing moral whims of mankind. You should clarify that God is good to some other standard; perhaps a standard he invented himself.
But then we all can be defined as “good” if we get to dictate the standard of which we are judged by; right???

God Himself IS the standard of "good." Because He is the source for ALL things in this universe, He therefore is also the source of all values and all morality.

The universe is a "closed system"... and God is outside of that system, for He created it. And just as surely as he established the laws of physics that govern the universe, He established the laws of morality that govern His highest creation, mankind.

It can't be any other way... or else He's not God at all.

These assertions are simply a part of the very definition of the entity that is God.

 

[Ken-1122]

The concept of accountability includes the power/authority to render both judgment and consequences. People "judge" God all the time, sure. But there's not a thing that they can do to Him if they disapprove of His actions or motives.

So... that's not accountability.

There isn't a thing God has done if he disapproves of human actions either. that power/authority thing goes both ways ya know!

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

You know why I'm not an atheist?

Because I don't have enough faith to believe all the impossible things I'd have to believe.

• That at one point in time, there was nothing, then a Big Bang created everything from absolutely nothing...
  • That's simply and utterly contrary to every law of physics there is. Nothing can come from nothing.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept something so scientifically unfounded.
• That Order came out of Chaos.
  • There's nothing as chaotic as an explosion of such immensity that all the matter in the universe was blasted across the reaches of space.
  • The Law of entropy says that Order always descends into chaos, never the other way around.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept that the universe is not following it's own laws.
• That Life arose from Non-Life
  • There is no mechanism that has ever been observed or tested or tenably postulated that anything non-living could ever become anything living.
  • I simply don't have enough to believe that life created itself.
• That coded information created itself.
  • DNA is the code of life. All codes are information.
  • Coded information can only come from an intelligence. There's no other source that's even plausible.
  • Furthermore, information requires both a sender and a receiver of that information. And for coded information to even be helpful three things must be true:
    • There must be real information in the code
    • Something/someone other must be able to "read" and understand the code.
    • That something/someone must then act based upon the meaning of the code.
  • DNA meets all three of these requirements.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to believe that this system of coded information could EVER arise on its own without an intelligent force behind it.

Many times atheists chide Christians and other deists for their "faith" in something that cannot be proven.

Well, I'm sorry, but I simply don't have as much faith as the atheists, because I cannot believe that the things I listed above could ever happen... because they are simply contrary to everything we know scientifically about our universe.

Yet, atheists have no choice but to express the most improbable faith in these impossible violations of physics in order maintain their assertion that God is not. These beliefs are untested, unproven, untestable, unprovable.

Actually, the most logical--even scientific--conclusion based on our observations of the physical universe is that there must be a higher intelligence... a higher power... a Creative Force that is outside of and preeminent over the physical universe. No, it's not tested or proven, but it certainly fits the data better, and it doesn't require us to believe in the suspension of the laws of physics to offer an answer to the questions of origins.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

There isn't a thing God has done if he disapproves of human actions either. that power/authority thing goes both ways ya know!

We have not witnessed the end of the story yet...

I suggest you read this carefully... it is God's Word talking directly about you...

2 Peter 3:3-9
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Notice... our time-frame is not God's time-frame.

Notice... you're not the first to say... "God's not doing anything!!"

Notice... that the reason people don't understand their accountability before God is because they first forget or deny that He created this universe...

Notice... that the reason he's waiting to "settle things" is because He wants to give people like you an opportunity to change your mind (that's what "repentance" means).

I encourage you to seriously ponder this... don't presume to try His patience...

If God doesn't exist... then nothing matters... you don't matter, I don't matter, our lives don't matter, and our stupid discussions about origins have no meaning whatsoever.

But if God does exist... then getting things right with Him is the only thing that really matters. You really don't want to be in His cross-hairs when the "accounting" takes place...

 

[VirOptimus]

You know why I'm not an atheist?

Because I don't have enough faith to believe all the impossible things I'd have to believe.

• That at one point in time, there was nothing, then a Big Bang created everything from absolutely nothing...
  • That's simply and utterly contrary to every law of physics there is. Nothing can come from nothing.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept something so scientifically unfounded.
• That Order came out of Chaos.
  • There's nothing as chaotic as an explosion of such immensity that all the matter in the universe was blasted across the reaches of space.
  • The Law of entropy says that Order always descends into chaos, never the other way around.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept that the universe is not following it's own laws.
• That Life arose from Non-Life
  • There is no mechanism that has ever been observed or tested or tenably postulated that anything non-living could ever become anything living.
  • I simply don't have enough to believe that life created itself.
• That coded information created itself.
  • DNA is the code of life. All codes are information.
  • Coded information can only come from an intelligence. There's no other source that's even plausible.
  • Furthermore, information requires both a sender and a receiver of that information. And for coded information to even be helpful three things must be true:
    • There must be real information in the code
    • Something/someone other must be able to "read" and understand the code.
    • That something/someone must then act based upon the meaning of the code.
  • DNA meets all three of these requirements.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to believe that this system of coded information could EVER arise on its own without an intelligent force behind it.

Many times atheists chide Christians and other deists for their "faith" in something that cannot be proven.

Well, I'm sorry, but I simply don't have as much faith as the atheists, because I cannot believe that the things I listed above could ever happen... because they are simply contrary to everything we know scientifically about our universe.

Yet, atheists have no choice but to express the most improbable faith in these impossible violations of physics in order maintain their assertion that God is not. These beliefs are untested, unproven, untestable, unprovable.

Actually, the most logical--even scientific--conclusion based on our observations of the physical universe is that there must be a higher intelligence... a higher power... a Creative Force that is outside of and preeminent over the physical universe. No, it's not tested or proven, but it certainly fits the data better, and it doesn't require us to believe in the suspension of the laws of physics to offer an answer to the questions of origins.

There is no data supporting god(s) and/or magic.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

There is no data supporting god(s) and/or magic.

Yes there is.

If you find a book with writing in it on Mars, then you can claim that you have data that some sort of intelligent being exists that wrote the book.

We have found a "book" of extremely detailed and complex instructions for the building of living beings... encoded into the DNA of every cell of every living thing. We can therefore claim that we have data that some sort of intelligent being exists that wrote that "book."

That IS data supporting the existence of a God.

 

[holo]

Just jumping in again, answering stuff that wasn't addressed to me

So... nothing is actually evil... it just may be at one time or another called "evil" by one person or another.

Yes, pretty much. Just like love, beauty or disgust, evil doesn't exist outside of our experience. Evil isn't some "stuff" floating around. It's still real though, we have all done something that would fit the label evil.

If I don't like your subjective interpretation of what is "evil," I'll just go and do my own thing no matter what you think about it. Who are you to say that your subjectivity is any more valid than mine?

I guess you're already "doing your thing" regardless of what others think about it. Sure, you may be limited by law and social norms in what you actually do, but your sense of what is right and wrong is personal.

The interesting thing is that even if (like me) you don't believe in objective morality or evil, or the existence of sin, that doesn't make you any less moral. In fact, it's my observation that a lot of people become more moral when morality itself is loosened from any attachment to law, punishment or reward. For instance, when I give to charity, I do it because I think it's the right thing to do, not to avoid punishment or receive some reward, or to follow some commandment.

But I don't see how you can give any value to sentience if we are all just an evolutionary accident. From a naturalistic perspective, non-life is no more important than life... since both are just the results of natural processes.

I can understand if that sounds empty and pointless and scary. But to me at least, I think it's a wonderful thing. The universe has no meaning or purpose in and of itself - yet here I am living a life that is full of meaning.

Furthermore, if "evil" is subjective, so is value. Something may be valuable to one person, but not another. Who is right? Which life is valuable? A dog's life? A mosquito's life? A person's life? An amoeba's life? Is human life more valuable than plant life?

Good questions. I think we would be better off if we actually pondered about that some more.

What makes gold valuable? It's just a rock, it doesn't do anything. Yet it seems more valuable to us. We assign value to it. And you assign more value to your own children than someone else's.

You see, without a God to determine what is valuable, we're just kidding ourselves to count one accident of nature as more "worthy" than any other accident of nature.

We're not kidding ourselves, it's just that the value, or worthiness, is assigned, not inherent. Nobody can determine what is valuable to you.

And if a comet hits earth tomorrow and destroys ALL life on the planet, there's no great loss, since we were just a bunch of evolutionary accidents that thought of ourselves as "important" when we really don't matter at all. There's nothing after life. There's no accountability to a Creator. All the "evil" ever committed won't matter. And no one will ever know or care that we existed for a short time.

It probably sounds weird to you, but to me that is an immensely comforting and empowering thought. I'm not left to try to decipher the mind of God and find this supposed objective meaning of life, I can find and create my own. My life is a brief flash in a universe that is for all intents and purposes infinite - how miraculous that I even exist! Everything will pass, the joys and the pain, and I am nothing in the big picture. Yet I am everything, because everything that has happened in the universe up until now, has resulted in me being who I am and where I am. I think it was Alan Watts who said, "you are something the whole universe is doing, in the same way a wave is something the whole ocean is doing."

I get to be here, and when I'm gone the universe will be just fine without me.

 

[VirOptimus]

Yes there is.

If you find a book with writing in it on Mars, then you can claim that you have data that some sort of intelligent being exists that wrote the book.

We have found a "book" of extremely detailed and complex instructions for the building of living beings... encoded into the DNA of every cell of every living thing. We can therefore claim that we have data that some sort of intelligent being exists that wrote that "book."

That IS data supporting the existence of a God.

Nope, far from it.

Learn basic biology.

 

[HitchSlap]

You know why I'm not an atheist?

Because you believe god/s exist.

Because I don't have enough faith to believe all the impossible things I'd have to believe.

Well, we know your faith is at least smaller than a mustard seed - seeing as no one's moved any mountains lately.

That at one point in time, there was nothing, then a Big Bang created everything from absolutely nothing...

• • That's simply and utterly contrary to every law of physics there is. Nothing can come from nothing.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept something so scientifically unfounded.
• That Order came out of Chaos.
  • There's nothing as chaotic as an explosion of such immensity that all the matter in the universe was blasted across the reaches of space.
  • The Law of entropy says that Order always descends into chaos, never the other way around.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to accept that the universe is not following it's own laws.
• That Life arose from Non-Life
  • There is no mechanism that has ever been observed or tested or tenably postulated that anything non-living could ever become anything living.
  • I simply don't have enough to believe that life created itself.
• That coded information created itself.
  • DNA is the code of life. All codes are information.
  • Coded information can only come from an intelligence. There's no other source that's even plausible.
  • Furthermore, information requires both a sender and a receiver of that information. And for coded information to even be helpful three things must be true:
    • There must be real information in the code
    • Something/someone other must be able to "read" and understand the code.
    • That something/someone must then act based upon the meaning of the code.
  • DNA meets all three of these requirements.
  • I simply don't have enough faith to believe that this system of coded information could EVER arise on its own without an intelligent force behind it.

Many times atheists chide Christians and other deists for their "faith" in something that cannot be proven.

Well, I'm sorry, but I simply don't have as much faith as the atheists, because I cannot believe that the things I listed above could ever happen... because they are simply contrary to everything we know scientifically about our universe.

Yet, atheists have no choice but to express the most improbable faith in these impossible violations of physics in order maintain their assertion that God is not. These beliefs are untested, unproven, untestable, unprovable.

Actually, the most logical--even scientific--conclusion based on our observations of the physical universe is that there must be a higher intelligence... a higher power... a Creative Force that is outside of and preeminent over the physical universe. No, it's not tested or proven, but it certainly fits the data better, and it doesn't require us to believe in the suspension of the laws of physics to offer an answer to the questions of origins.

Leaving your incredulity and misrepresentation aside for the moment, what caused you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

... The universe has no meaning or purpose in and of itself - yet here I am living a life that is full of meaning.

But if the universe has no meaning, then all the meaning you're feeling in your life is just a comfortable delusion.

- how miraculous that I even exist!

How apt to invoke the language of the supernatural when pondering our existence!

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Leaving your incredulity and misrepresentation aside for the moment...

Stop right there.

Show my my misrepresentation.

You can't just dismiss everything I said.

Give me solid scientifically plausible answers to the issues I raised...

Nothing I said was about proving a God or any other aspect of religious faith. My point is that atheistic faith requires the suspension of belief in the uniformity and immutability of the laws of physics.

Answer that if you want any other answers from me about my personal faith.