asking_about_healing

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"perish" is often contrasted with eternal life, so God is not necessarily talking about physical earthly life: 12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Indeed, you are absolutely right, and I couldn't agree more. But that wasn't my point. I was just making the observation that not everything that happens is God's will. As topher694 observed:

it is also God's will that:



    • None shall perish, but everyone come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) (1 Tim 2:3-4)
    • For us to be give thanks in any circumstances (1 Thes 5:18)
    • That we be sanctified (1 Thes 4:3)
    • That we do good works to demonstrate and advance His kingdom (Eph 2:10, Heb 13:21, 1 Peter 2:15)
    • That we be wise (James 1:5)

However, all of those listed items are things we know do not always happen.
 
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It's interesting that you quote James. Doesn't James 5:14-15 pretty much guarantee healing: "Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up." Or, would you argue here that the result is dependent on the prayer being "offered in faith"?

That's a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical taunt. James 1:7 says we have to ask with faith, and James 5:15 makes specific mention of faith.
I don't know what the state of the church was in the First Century when James wrote his book. Perhaps there was a greater likelihood of believers being healed through coming to the elders for ministry. But our churches are nothing like the early church in purity, holiness, walk with Christ, and therefore in the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, healing in today's churches is certainly not guaranteed, and it is not God's fault but ours.

Now, in saying that, it is not that we don't have enough faith, because all it needs is faith the size of a mustard seed, and all genuine believers have that faith. It is because in most churches, because of cessationism, false teaching, heresy, occult influences, and just plain unholy living, the Holy Spirit is grieved and quenched and very limited in what He can do with us.
 
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Oscarr,

I absolutely agree. But my question was not "should God always honor our prayers for healing." It was whether healing is always God's will. If it is his will, we are conforming to it rather than demanding he conform to our will. If healing is always God's will, he remains sovereign.



Please forgive me. My response to this will be a long one.

When Paul described his preaching to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 2:1-5), he wrote, "I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom." His message was simply "Jesus Christ and him crucified"--the gospel, as you so rightly pointed out. However, Paul also said that instead of aiming for "wise and persuasive words" he focused on making sure there was "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power," and he did this with the explicit intention that the faith of the new believers would not "rest on human wisdom," but would rest "on God’s power." I think you may be wrong to separate signs and wonders from the gospel and say that one but not the other are the power of God.

Actually, I would suggest that the practice of emphasizing signs and wonders was Paul's normal approach to evangelism. In Romans 15:18-19, he said he had fulfilled the ministry of the gospel, a broader claim than just saying he had preached the message. The Greek (πεπληρωκέναι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον) more literally says he filled or fulfilled the gospel itself, and does not specify the manner in which he did this. But as that is confusing in English, most translations add a noun as the object for the verb. For example, the NIV has "fully proclaimed", the NASB has "fully preached", the ESV has "fulfilled the ministry", and most other translations follow similar patterns. I like the ESV rendering because it avoids placing an emphasis on a verbal presentation of the gospel. The Greek word πεπληρωκέναι is perfect infinitive active form of πληρόω which, as I alluded to above, means to make full, or to complete. The same word in a different tense is used in Matthew 1:22 where it says, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet."

In fact, although Paul mentions both word and deed in Romans 15:18, he follows this immediately by emphasizing the deeds: "by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (ESV). The result is that while Paul says he both preached and demonstrated the message, his emphasis is on the miracles. For Paul it seems, miracles were necessary to the gospel presentation: without them, his evangelism would not have been complete.

Further more, it is not just Paul who emphasizes the value of miracles. Jesus also does this. You mentioned this, but you emphatically stated the miracles demonstrated that the kingdom was at hand. That is definitely true, but it doesn't seem to be the entire purpose of the miracles. When the Jews want to stone Jesus, he pointed to his miracles as the reason to believe he is "one with the Father" (John 10:37-38). Later on, he urges Philip to draw the same conclusion for the same reason (John 14:11). We also have Matthew 9:6, where Jesus presents a miracle as evidence that he can forgive sin. Furthermore, in Matthew 11:20-24, he denounces the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed because they did not respond with repentance. So will you suggest we need to learn from "the modern charismatic emphasis on signs and wonders over and above the preaching of the gospel," I would suggest we ought to expect an equality between signs, wonders, and proclamation. Jesus did not, after all, say "Woe to you Capernaum, you did not repent on account of my preaching."

Things are definitely a little less tidy when we consider Jesus decrying the demand for a sign (Matthew 12:38-42, Mark 8:12, and Luke 11:29), but that is in the context of people who are actively disbelieving. Those people don't just have doubts, they've already concluded Jesus is not from God and are flaunting that conclusion by demanding he prove them wrong. By contrast, in John 4:48 when Jesus says, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe,” his point seems to be that we need miracles to help us understand who he is. He makes that statement in response to a desperate father's plea for help, and rather than saying "no sign will be given to you," as he did to the unbelieving group, he responds by answering the man's request and healing his child. If his statement to the man had been derogatory, he surely would not have performed the subsequent miracle.

Peter too saw the importance of miracles. After healing the paralytic at one of the entrances to the temple in Jerusalem, he says to the Jews there, "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know" (Acts 2:22). I guess we could argue that Jesus was an exception, which is obviously true in regard to his divinity. But that argument doesn't really hold up in light of comments like Paul's when he wrote that he had persisted in demonstrating "the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles" (2 Corinthians 12:12). So miracles "marked" apostles, not just Jesus.

Given Paul's own testimony as to why he did miracles, it seems fairly clear that miracles in the New Testament were expected to illicit a response of faith. More than this, it seems they were considered a primary tool to that end.

So, we have Jesus expecting repentance because of his miracles, and we have Peter describing Jesus' miracles as God's attestation, and we have Paul presenting them as necessary for a solid foundation in faith. In light of this, can we really say that simply preaching the gospel is really all that's needed? Is our preaching so much wiser, more eloquent, or more persuasive than Paul's? And I think I could ask that same question switching Paul's name out for that of Jesus. Jesus, the disciples, Philip, Stephen, and Paul all did miracles. Why are we so against the idea that we may need to do the same?

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't go around making the lame able to walk, giving sight to the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the deaf, or raising the dead. I only proclaim the gospel. In light of the Scriptures though, I don't know that I can defend that behavior. Perhaps the reality is that I don't actually have any recourse but to pray, perhaps to repent and fast, and to entreat the Father to anoint me--or rather to anoint us with the Holy Spirit and with Power so that we can go around "doing good and healing all who are under the power of the devil" (Acts 10:38)? And until that power comes, what option do we have but to be obedient to the examples we've been given and imitate what we can, even if it lays bare our impotence. I really don't think we have any other option.

How can we properly present a kingdom we cannot demonstrate? How can we represent a master we do not emulate? Are we, in fact, proclaiming a king we hesitate to obey? Let's not forget that Jesus expected us to do what he did. His words were, "whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these." He did not say we would be able to do those things if we felt like it.

Surely it's better to fail while trying than to fail by doing nothing. Besides, doesn't God “rewards those who earnestly seek him” (Hebrews 11:6)?
I'm sorry that I can't give a more detailed response to your excellent post, but I have to go to work soon. But when Paul said that when he first came to Corinth to plant the church, after his failure at Athens, because he concentrated there on the resurrection of Christ and got just a few converts, he determined when he got to Corinth to get souls saved and to plant the church, he determined to know nothing but Christ crucified. He discovered that he needed to preach the gospel and said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe." So the signs and wonders although great, were not the power of God that he was talking about when he tell them that he was going to preach not in the wisdom of men but in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power, but it was the power of God in the gospel of Christ itself. The signs and wonders are just signs that Jesus is alive and the gospel is the truth. It wasn't the signs and wonders that brought people to Christ, it was the convicting power of the preaching of Christ crucified.

However, Paul did say that he came preaching the gospel with signs and wonders, so they were a definite part of his ministry, but not the core of it.
 
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Oscarr,

I feel much as you do about certain high profile individuals who seem to see the gospel as a way to get rich, and may even fake miracles to get what they want. That is terrible behavior. Despicable behavior!

With regards to gifts remaining "in the exclusive ownership of the Holy Spirit" though, I disagree. Gifts are, by their very nature, freely given to the recipient. I think that's why Peter could so confidently say, "I don't have silver or gold, but what I do have, I give you: get up and walk" (Acts 3:6).

That said, I know various charismatic pastors have presented a theology that leans heavily on the idea that Jesus on did and said what he saw and heard the Father doing (John 5:19 & John 12:49), and that we need to do likewise. And the Centurion that Jesus commended (Matthew 8:4-13) made a big deal regarding lines of authority (at least, it seems that way to me). Perhaps I'm failing because I'm not waiting for God to say go do this. It's just that it seems like he's already said that in the Bible. Jesus did is. He told his disciples to do it. Paul instructed the church to keep doing it (only to do it in a less chaotic fashion) and to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts (which may imply we can get them if we don't already have them).
I see your point. I believe that the gift is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us. It is through Him that the gifts flow according to His will. He manifests the gift, because they are His. If we claimed ownership of the gifts, then we could say that we did the works and that it was because of our power that accomplished the healing. Then why need God? This was the error of those who will stand before Christ and say, "Lord, Lord, haven't we done all these great things in your name?" (my paraphrase). Jesus won't know them and will see them as workers of iniquity because what they did was all of self and not through total dependence on the Holy Spirit.

The concept of gifts is more concerned with these tools of the Holy Spirit are manifested through us without us having to earn them or pay for them in any way through self performance. We are given the gift of salvation, but salvation will always be the Lord's, "Salvation is of the Lord." (I don't know the reference to that).

The Scripture says that the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel and the Lord worked with them with signs and wonders.

That is my view and it prevents me from having false hopes about healing, and to leave it all with the Lord once I have prayed the prayer of faith.
 
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Sam91

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Oscarr,

I absolutely agree. But my question was not "should God always honor our prayers for healing." It was whether healing is always God's will. If it is his will, we are conforming to it rather than demanding he conform to our will. If healing is always God's will, he remains sovereign.



Please forgive me. My response to this will be a long one.

When Paul described his preaching to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 2:1-5), he wrote, "I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom." His message was simply "Jesus Christ and him crucified"--the gospel, as you so rightly pointed out. However, Paul also said that instead of aiming for "wise and persuasive words" he focused on making sure there was "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power," and he did this with the explicit intention that the faith of the new believers would not "rest on human wisdom," but would rest "on God’s power." I think you may be wrong to separate signs and wonders from the gospel and say that one but not the other are the power of God.

Actually, I would suggest that the practice of emphasizing signs and wonders was Paul's normal approach to evangelism. In Romans 15:18-19, he said he had fulfilled the ministry of the gospel, a broader claim than just saying he had preached the message. The Greek (πεπληρωκέναι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον) more literally says he filled or fulfilled the gospel itself, and does not specify the manner in which he did this. But as that is confusing in English, most translations add a noun as the object for the verb. For example, the NIV has "fully proclaimed", the NASB has "fully preached", the ESV has "fulfilled the ministry", and most other translations follow similar patterns. I like the ESV rendering because it avoids placing an emphasis on a verbal presentation of the gospel. The Greek word πεπληρωκέναι is perfect infinitive active form of πληρόω which, as I alluded to above, means to make full, or to complete. The same word in a different tense is used in Matthew 1:22 where it says, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet."

In fact, although Paul mentions both word and deed in Romans 15:18, he follows this immediately by emphasizing the deeds: "by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (ESV). The result is that while Paul says he both preached and demonstrated the message, his emphasis is on the miracles. For Paul it seems, miracles were necessary to the gospel presentation: without them, his evangelism would not have been complete.

Further more, it is not just Paul who emphasizes the value of miracles. Jesus also does this. You mentioned this, but you emphatically stated the miracles demonstrated that the kingdom was at hand. That is definitely true, but it doesn't seem to be the entire purpose of the miracles. When the Jews want to stone Jesus, he pointed to his miracles as the reason to believe he is "one with the Father" (John 10:37-38). Later on, he urges Philip to draw the same conclusion for the same reason (John 14:11). We also have Matthew 9:6, where Jesus presents a miracle as evidence that he can forgive sin. Furthermore, in Matthew 11:20-24, he denounces the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed because they did not respond with repentance. So will you suggest we need to learn from "the modern charismatic emphasis on signs and wonders over and above the preaching of the gospel," I would suggest we ought to expect an equality between signs, wonders, and proclamation. Jesus did not, after all, say "Woe to you Capernaum, you did not repent on account of my preaching."

Things are definitely a little less tidy when we consider Jesus decrying the demand for a sign (Matthew 12:38-42, Mark 8:12, and Luke 11:29), but that is in the context of people who are actively disbelieving. Those people don't just have doubts, they've already concluded Jesus is not from God and are flaunting that conclusion by demanding he prove them wrong. By contrast, in John 4:48 when Jesus says, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe,” his point seems to be that we need miracles to help us understand who he is. He makes that statement in response to a desperate father's plea for help, and rather than saying "no sign will be given to you," as he did to the unbelieving group, he responds by answering the man's request and healing his child. If his statement to the man had been derogatory, he surely would not have performed the subsequent miracle.

Peter too saw the importance of miracles. After healing the paralytic at one of the entrances to the temple in Jerusalem, he says to the Jews there, "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know" (Acts 2:22). I guess we could argue that Jesus was an exception, which is obviously true in regard to his divinity. But that argument doesn't really hold up in light of comments like Paul's when he wrote that he had persisted in demonstrating "the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles" (2 Corinthians 12:12). So miracles "marked" apostles, not just Jesus.

Given Paul's own testimony as to why he did miracles, it seems fairly clear that miracles in the New Testament were expected to illicit a response of faith. More than this, it seems they were considered a primary tool to that end.

So, we have Jesus expecting repentance because of his miracles, and we have Peter describing Jesus' miracles as God's attestation, and we have Paul presenting them as necessary for a solid foundation in faith. In light of this, can we really say that simply preaching the gospel is really all that's needed? Is our preaching so much wiser, more eloquent, or more persuasive than Paul's? And I think I could ask that same question switching Paul's name out for that of Jesus. Jesus, the disciples, Philip, Stephen, and Paul all did miracles. Why are we so against the idea that we may need to do the same?

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't go around making the lame able to walk, giving sight to the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the deaf, or raising the dead. I only proclaim the gospel. In light of the Scriptures though, I don't know that I can defend that behavior. Perhaps the reality is that I don't actually have any recourse but to pray, perhaps to repent and fast, and to entreat the Father to anoint me--or rather to anoint us with the Holy Spirit and with Power so that we can go around "doing good and healing all who are under the power of the devil" (Acts 10:38)? And until that power comes, what option do we have but to be obedient to the examples we've been given and imitate what we can, even if it lays bare our impotence. I really don't think we have any other option.

How can we properly present a kingdom we cannot demonstrate? How can we represent a master we do not emulate? Are we, in fact, proclaiming a king we hesitate to obey? Let's not forget that Jesus expected us to do what he did. His words were, "whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these." He did not say we would be able to do those things if we felt like it.

Surely it's better to fail while trying than to fail by doing nothing. Besides, doesn't God “rewards those who earnestly seek him” (Hebrews 11:6)?

But do we really need 'power' for God to heal? (Added in as an afterthought: The Lord requires nothing from us in order for Him to be able to do it. His Power and Sovereignity are not altered in the least by whatever state we ard in and He definitely does not need us to have correct theology. Ok, we should definitely ask in faith, the Bible iterates that throughout. But in the end, seeing as we are not healing, we do not need the 'gift of healing' for someone to be healed.)

The two occasions I was healed God just did it. The first time I was testifying to my husband and believed 100% what I was saying. Never did I ask for it. The other time I just wanted to be able to thank Him for it rather than medication. I was coming to Him to provide for me, instead of relying on myself and medication. I'm not sure why He healed me, I just know that He is Good and I'm in awe of Him.

I guess for a 'healing ministry' you would need to be called to it but I don't really know how biblical they are and feel a sense of caution about those.

I was going to ask if you've prayed for healing of those around you but I've realised that I myself only pray that friends recover quickly from minor ailments and that those who ard suffering more chronic or dangerous conditions I ask for them to be strengthened, comforted, with a general may His will be done in thd situation etc. I feel a little guilty for having never prayed for my friend's sciatica. Do you think we ought?
 
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As an opening question, do you think healing is always God's will? I'm not asking if it always happens. They answer to that question would be rather obvious.
Yes - I believe that healing is always God's will. Obviously there are different types of wills of God in theology. But I'm speaking about God's will in the simple sense.

I.e. - If all of the various stipulations are fulfilled we can always expect healing.

Those stipulations range from having enough faith to taking authority over demons when necessary to praying to fasting to getting along with your spouse to proper motive and a number of other things mentioned in the scriptures.

I certainly can't judge anyone who falls short of any of avoiding all of the exceptions to receiving or administering healing. But - "in theory" as it were - it is always God's will to heal.

Having said that - as a believer in God's sovereignty including the predestination of everything that happens or doesn't happen in history (including things related to faith etc.) I believe that even unanswered prayer and lack of healing is predestined to occur quite often and even more often than not.

Looking at that statement - some will say that it is contradiction to say all of those things. I disagree that it is. It won't be the first time the charge of impossible contradiction was put forth when talking about the sovereignty of God as it relates to predestination and the will of men.

Huge subject with a lot of angles and so little time.:)
 
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Sam91

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Yes - I believe that healing is always God's will. Obviously there are different types of wills of God in theology. But I'm speaking about God's will in the simple sense.

I.e. - If all of the various stipulations are fulfilled we can always expect healing.

Those stipulations range from having enough faith to taking authority over demons when necessary to praying to fasting to getting along with your spouse to proper motive and a number of other things mentioned in the scriptures.

I certainly can't judge anyone who falls short of any of avoiding all of the exceptions to receiving or administering healing. But - "in theory" as it were - it is always God's will to heal.

Having said that - as a believer in God's sovereignty including the predestination of everything that happens or doesn't happen in history (including things related to faith etc.) I believe that even unanswered prayer and lack of healing is predestined to occur quite often and even more often than not.

Looking at that statement - some will say that it is contradiction to say all of those things. I disagree that it is. It won't be the first time the charge of impossible contradiction was put forth when talking about the sovereignty of God as it relates to predestination and the will of men.

Huge subject with a lot of angles and so little time.:)

Hi. Out of interest, which Bible verses say that God only heals where the person isn't making a mess of things. It's just that was not my experience when He healed me I just had sincerity and faith (even though I had completely flawed theology too). But I don't even think that was of me, He just poured out blessing me in those moments. I'm grateful though because He leaves me in complete awe and it is humbling. It is amazing when you think of how incomprehensibly perfect He is in all His ways.
 
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asking_about_healing

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I don't know what the state of the church was in the First Century when James wrote his book. Perhaps there was a greater likelihood of believers being healed through coming to the elders for ministry. But our churches are nothing like the early church in purity, holiness, walk with Christ, and therefore in the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, healing in today's churches is certainly not guaranteed, and it is not God's fault but ours.

Now, in saying that, it is not that we don't have enough faith, because all it needs is faith the size of a mustard seed, and all genuine believers have that faith. It is because in most churches, because of cessationism, false teaching, heresy, occult influences, and just plain unholy living, the Holy Spirit is grieved and quenched and very limited in what He can do with us.

Oscarr,

I don't know that I'd list exactly the same reasons you do, but I agree that what appears to have been common enough in the early church to have been expected is generally absent in the bulk of Western churches. And, to be more pointed, in my life. I had a word of knowledge in a meeting as a teenager and someone was instantly healed, and I had hypothyroidism and was healed over about six months (unimpressive, I know, but my doctor told me it doesn't go away, so I consider that a miracle). But I'm 52 now. I'm thinking there should be more evidence in my life today than there is, and that troubles me.

What about the Corinthian church though? It was a mess, but it sounds like miracles were not uncommon there. I suppose they could have had some really bad Christians and some absolutely stellar ones, but that seems a bit of a stretch.

Like you, I don't think it's just a faith problem, although I suppose that could be part of it. I should qualify, however, that I don't believe the person being healed has to have great faith, just enough to ask for healing. When Jesus disciples failed to heal the demonized boy and asked why the could do it, Jesus (as I read it) said it was a problem with them, not with the boy or his father. In Matthew's gospel he says it was their lack of faith. In Mark and Luke, prayer and fasting seem to be needed.
 
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Sam91

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I don't know that I'd list exactly the same reasons you do, but I agree that what appears to have been common enough in the early church to have been expected is generally absent in the bulk of Western churches. And, to be more pointed, in my life. I had a word of knowledge in a meeting as a teenager and someone was instantly healed, and I had hypothyroidism and was healed over about six months (unimpressive, I know, but my doctor told me it doesn't go away, so I consider that a miracle). But I'm 52 now. I'm thinking there should be more evidence in my life today than there is, and that troubles me.

What about the Corinthian church though? It was a mess, but it sounds like miracles were not uncommon there. I suppose they could have had some really bad Christians and some absolutely stellar ones, but that seems a bit of a stretch.

Like you, I don't think it's just a faith problem, although I suppose that could be part of it. I should qualify, however, that I don't believe the person being healed has to have great faith, just enough to ask for healing. When Jesus disciples failed to heal the demonized boy and asked why the could do it, Jesus (as I read it) said it was a problem with them, not with the boy or his father. In Matthew's gospel he says it was their lack of faith. In Mark and Luke, prayer and fasting seem to be needed.
I think you're quite right here. I don't think it depends so much on us. I think it depends on what He can teach us by it, or what it can enable us to do, or encouraging us in purity of heart or faith. I think its about leading us right sometimes.

However, I have little opinion on the 'spiritual gift of healing'. I believe if God wills someone to go around healing, He will make it so. But I don't trust men's preaching on it because so many of us are flawed in understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6
 
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Yes - I believe that healing is always God's will. Obviously there are different types of wills of God in theology. But I'm speaking about God's will in the simple sense.

I.e. - If all of the various stipulations are fulfilled we can always expect healing.
That's a bold claim. So how do you explain Jesus healing every single person who came to him asking for healing? Consider the 10 lepers. We don't see Jesus saying, "You four, good news, you're getting healed today. You three, sorry, you need to work on your faith for a bit longer. You, deal with that sin issue and come back once that's done. You, this is actually something the Father is doing for your benefit, and you'll be a better person for it. And you, sorry, but this one's unto death." Yes, we are told he could not do any great works in his home town except to heal a few people, but isn't it possible that only those few where willing to even ask him? Surely, if there were multiple conditions to healing required of the person who is sick, there would be examples of that in one of the Gospels or in Acts? But we have no example of that. The only way it can get there is if we read it into what is not said about Jesus in his home town. The only actual story of a failed healing is the one where Jesus blames the healers, his disciples.
 
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Sam91

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That's a bold claim. So how do you explain Jesus healing every single person who came to him asking for healing? Consider the 10 lepers. We don't see Jesus saying, "You four, good news, you're getting healed today. You three, sorry, you need to work on your faith for a bit longer. You, deal with that sin issue and come back once that's done. You, this is actually something the Father is doing for your benefit, and you'll be a better person for it. And you, sorry, but this one's unto death." Yes, we are told he could not do any great works in his home town except to heal a few people, but isn't it possible that only those few where willing to even ask him? Surely, if there were multiple conditions to healing required of the person who is sick, there would be examples of that in one of the Gospels or in Acts? But we have no example of that. The only way it can get there is if we read it into what is not said about Jesus in his home town. The only actual story of a failed healing is the one where Jesus blames the healers, his disciples.
Hi, what was I claiming? I think I'm saying the opposite of what you think I am.

I am saying here that when I was healed the first time I was sinning in my day to day life. However, I was healed in a moment when I testified that I would be healed if it was in God's will. At the time I was in the wilderness. Wanting to be at Church but believing I couldn't be unless He called me back. Totally flawed theology was stopping me from being at Church. However, God blessed me anyway.

But my question to @His student was which bible verses say that you need to be free from sin before being healed. (Out of interest sake). Jesus healed people and said 'your sins are forgiven'. 'Go sin no more'.
 
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asking_about_healing

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Hi, what was I claiming? I think I'm saying the opposite of what you think I am.

Sorry, I attributed that to the wrong person and fixed it to slowly. That was "His students" claim, not yours.
 
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I'd like to have a cordial discussion about miraculous healing, but we'll have to see how this goes. :)

As an opening question, do you think healing is always God's will? I'm not asking if it always happens. They answer to that question would be rather obvious. But as we know "it is not God's will that any should perish" and yet some do, we know that God's will is not always done. I'm going to start out by suggesting that Jesus' example in Matthew (I pick Matthew because I am most familiar with the miracles in that Gospel and because of its emphasis on discipleship) indicates it is his desire to heal every time.

It would be nice if the responses to this could be thoughtful and respectful even if you believe I am completely wrong. Again, we'll have to see how that goes.
As an opening question, do you think healing is always God's will?
Yes.
It is always the will of he that is life to bring life..
 
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asking_about_healing

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I think you're quite right here. I don't think it depends so much on us. I think it depends on what He can teach us by it, or what it can enable us to do, or encouraging us in purity of heart or faith. I think its about leading us right sometimes.

However, I have little opinion on the 'spiritual gift of healing'. I believe if God wills someone to go around healing, He will make it so. But I don't trust men's preaching on it because so many of us are flawed in understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6

Sam91,

Now there I disagree with you. Well, partly anyway. Jesus never sent anyone away because, "The Father is teaching you something through this."

That said, it seems pretty obvious in the Old Testament that a lot of sickness was due to sin, and frequently God is identified as the source. Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable saying that. I want to say, "the phrasing could be understood to imply God caused the sickness," but I can't really justify that. Exodus 15:26, for example, is pretty explicit in God taking the blame for Egypt's plagues. Not that there was every any lack of clarity regarding that. I just don't like it.
 
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Sam91

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Sam91,

Now there I disagree with you. Well, partly anyway. Jesus never sent anyone away because, "The Father is teaching you something through this."

That said, it seems pretty obvious in the Old Testament that a lot of sickness was due to sin, and frequently God is identified as the source. Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable saying that. I want to say, "the phrasing could be understood to imply God caused the sickness," but I can't really justify that. Exodus 15:26, for example, is pretty explicit in God taking the blame for Egypt's plagues. Not that there was every any lack of clarity regarding that. I just don't like it.

The plagues in the Bible demonstrate His power and are a witness of such for countless generations. A whole nation of Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptian's and then freed. It demonstrates the sheer lengths of stubborness a human, such as Pharoah can have, the fact that it took so many. It also shows how close-minded we can be too towards God.

The Israelites even after hearing all these stories still were unfaithful to the Lord. Infact, those who witnessed His acts and provision were quick to grumble in the desert and soon made idols.

Yeah, you are right to disagree with my suppositions about my experience. I do not understand it, I just know how good He is.. and I'm sure I underestimate that. Isaiah 55:8-9

Much illness is caused by sin. Heart problems by gluttony, laziness or anger fof example. Others by the way we pollute the world, inbreeding caused illness in royal families, STD's. The Bible doesn't say all illness is caused by sin though (afterthought:... or does it? My brain isn't working. Goodnight.)
 
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His student

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Out of interest, which Bible verses say that God only heals where the person isn't making a mess of things.
Hi – lack of faith is obviously the big one. But here is a cross section to get you started. After this I’ll leave it up to you to research.

There are many more. Most have to do with our lack of faith. But look at those last few for instance. That last one from 1 Peter in particular is one a lot of guys tend to miss for some odd reason. :)

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 11:22-24 And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their
unbelief.

Mark 6:5 He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Isaiah 1:15-16 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil,

Psalm 66:18 If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

James 4:3-10 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ...

Mark 9:29 He said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer and fasting.”

James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
 
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Sam91

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Hi – lack of faith is obviously the big one. But here is a cross section to get you started. After this I’ll leave it up to you to research.

There are many more. Most have to do with our lack of faith. But look at those last few for instance. That last one from 1 Peter in particular is one a lot of guys tend to miss for some odd reason. :)

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 11:22-24 And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their
unbelief.

Mark 6:5 He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Isaiah 1:15-16 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil,

Psalm 66:18 If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

James 4:3-10 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ...

Mark 9:29 He said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer and fasting.”

James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
Thank you very much. So it seems that you were drawing from the verses in Isaiah and Psalms when you said that.

I'm fully aware of the 1 Peter verse (coupled with the verse about if your brother has something against you.. Matthew 5:23-24), it has forced me to make amends with my oldest child in the past. I end up getting up, apologising, then go back to pray. (Which I'm thankful for of course).
 
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Oscarr,

I don't know that I'd list exactly the same reasons you do, but I agree that what appears to have been common enough in the early church to have been expected is generally absent in the bulk of Western churches. And, to be more pointed, in my life. I had a word of knowledge in a meeting as a teenager and someone was instantly healed, and I had hypothyroidism and was healed over about six months (unimpressive, I know, but my doctor told me it doesn't go away, so I consider that a miracle). But I'm 52 now. I'm thinking there should be more evidence in my life today than there is, and that troubles me.
The miracles and gifts did decline from the early church and the rot was starting to set in before the end of the First Century through the Gnostic and Arian heresies. Then Constantine, who professed Christianity but did not give up his paganism. Therefore, when he took over the Latin church, he introduced his pagan ideas into the church to keep in good with all the pagans that had to join the church when he made Christianity the state religion and outlawed pagan worship. That pretty well put the kybosh on the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So in that respect, the church itself was and is its worst enemy for allowing Constantine to introduce pagan type worship into the church, and the modern cessationists who use verses out of context to try and avoid having to admit that it is the church itself that caused the supernatural gifts to cease.

What about the Corinthian church though? It was a mess, but it sounds like miracles were not uncommon there. I suppose they could have had some really bad Christians and some absolutely stellar ones, but that seems a bit of a stretch.
Paul's letter to the Corinthians was to sort out the problems they were having. Although he said that they were not backward in any spiritual gift, they were behaving like carnal Christians need just baby milk instead of good meat, and so I would think they were misusing the gifts and operating from a spirit of stupid (like some Charismatic churches today) instead of the Holy Spirit. This would quench the Spirit and quite possibly limit the manifestation of the healing gifts among them.

Like you, I don't think it's just a faith problem, although I suppose that could be part of it. I should qualify, however, that I don't believe the person being healed has to have great faith, just enough to ask for healing. When Jesus disciples failed to heal the demonized boy and asked why the could do it, Jesus (as I read it) said it was a problem with them, not with the boy or his father. In Matthew's gospel he says it was their lack of faith. In Mark and Luke, prayer and fasting seem to be needed.
It is important to note that this was before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, and before the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to the church. They had Jesus with them, but when the Holy Spirit came, He came and dwelt within them. That was what made the difference. And yet, when He sent out the 70, they were able to cast out demons and they came back and rejoiced over it. But that was because Jesus directly commissioned them, thereby giving them absolute authority over Satan. In fact, when He commissioned them, He saw Satan immediately fall from heaven, signalling that Satan had lost his power and authority, and this was finally confirmed through the cross when Jesus shed His blood and then rose again from the dead.

We need to remember that a lot of what Jesus said was to unconverted Jews who were believing in the Messiah to come. Once Jesus had risen from the dead, and the Day of Pentecost had come, everything was different. This is why good exegesis of Scripture is really important before attempting to apply it directly to modern Christians.
 
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His student

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That's a bold claim. So how do you explain Jesus healing every single person who came to him asking for healing? Consider the 10 lepers. We don't see Jesus saying, "You four, good news, you're getting healed today. You three, sorry, you need to work on your faith for a bit longer. You, deal with that sin issue and come back once that's done. You, this is actually something the Father is doing for your benefit, and you'll be a better person for it. And you, sorry, but this one's unto death." Yes, we are told he could not do any great works in his home town except to heal a few people, but isn't it possible that only those few where willing to even ask him? Surely, if there were multiple conditions to healing required of the person who is sick, there would be examples of that in one of the Gospels or in Acts? But we have no example of that. The only way it can get there is if we read it into what is not said about Jesus in his home town. The only actual story of a failed healing is the one where Jesus blames the healers, his disciples.
That is simply not an accurate representation of what the scriptures teach or of what I believe and have said.

I listed several ways in which the prayers of people can be hindered and in some cases negated. They are all on the shoulders of men and none are on the shoulders of God - since He has told us exactly what to expect and why - on both sides of the healing equation.

Your problem is with what the scriptures tell us about hindrances to answered prayers and to people not receiving healing as well as with the Lord's turning a deaf ear to the prayers of some.

Your problem is not with my "bold claim". It is with the scriptures the Holy Spirit gave us to tell us why some people don't get their prayers answered and some people don't get their healing.

I fully believe that the Lord is capable and willing to heal - but only if certain parameters are met by men.

I'd love it if there were no exceptions to answered prayer and receiving healing.

But I didn't write the book. I'm just the messenger.:)

If you object to the reasons for exceptions, as I listed them - you must believe that there is no other reason for the obvious shortages of answered prayer and healing in the Christian world other than that the Lord is not trustworthy to fulfill His Word.

I for one don't subscribe to that idea.

The shortage of answered prayer and healing falls squarely on the shoulders of men and not on God tustworthiness.
 
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