Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

[Pommer]

Abortion is killing of a human being and not amount of "evil Christian drama" will change that fact.

What are your views on “excess embryos”, left over from in vitro fertilization?
Are they each all “a human being”?

 

[Pommer]

Do we not help the church first? What if after helping my brethren I have nothing left for the world? Am I an uncaring person?

Given your cavalier “healthcare” views, yeah, pretty much.

 

[tall73]

QFT

Then if you think we are all just lying with the goal of manipulating you, why bother discussing?

I find it quite a bit more likely that most Christians (and even some non-Christians) are genuinely upset at the notion of ending a life. Even if you do not think it is a life, it is a process that if not interrupted will often lead to the birth of a child, which all would agree is a life.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Given your cavalier “healthcare” views, yeah, pretty much.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Pommer]

You can lead a horse to water...

“Eat healthy and exercise” rings hollow in children’s cancer wards.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think you're right and I think I've been spun around enough.

With all this good will going around why do we still have all these problems?

 

[Fantine]

I always thought that what I would appreciate most about Roe v. Wade being overturned was that most anti-abortion voters would stop voting for candidates who, once they "save the babies," will get to their real agenda--destroying the environment, keeping families impoverished, fostering income inequality, and turning our government into an oligarchy. But I have been very disappointed...I feel as if many are in "more, more, we're still not satisfied" mode, as they seek to defund birth control, criminalize forms of birth control they deem "abortifacient," and end health programs in the third world. I have realized that they will never be satisfied. Many will keep having other goals--discriminating against LGBT's, putting 'a gun under every pillow' while remaining unconcerned about 'a chicken in every pot...' It will never end. Many will keep adding on issues that will allow them to vote for oligarchs, polluters, and supporters of indentured servitude for the 99%. I've really had it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

“Eat healthy and exercise” rings hollow in children’s cancer wards.

The vast majority of poor people don't have cancer. In fact most aren't sick at all, just uneducated and unmotivated.

 

[St_Worm2]

What if conservatives really don't give a rat's behind about giving women a reason not to abort? What if the REAL reason they are trying to legally end abortions is really about simply getting their religious dogma engraved in American law?

Hi Zephcom, a "religious dogma" telling us that it's wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being cannot be, "engraved in American law", at this point in time, because it has been part of American law since this country was founded.

Those who oppose abortion in the Senate and the House, whether they are Democrat or Republican, male or female, do so because abortion gives mothers the legal right to kill their unborn children.

The intentional killing of a human being w/o a just cause has been regarded as murder by secular societies and civil authorities throughout history. IOW, people don't need a "religious dogma" of some kind to know that murder, especially of innocents, is wrong.

--David

 

[Sparagmos]

Then if you think we are all just lying with the goal of manipulating you, why bother discussing?

I find it quite a bit more likely that most Christians (and even some non-Christians) are genuinely upset at the notion of ending a process that would, in many cases, lead to life if not interrupted.

I don’t think it’s intentional dishonesty or even manipulation. I think that Christians who opposed abortion solely to protect the life of a baby would be aggressively promoting measures PROVEN to prevent unwanted pregnancies. As we’ve discussed at length. I’d say 2 out of 3 pro-life posters here raise women’ sexuality at some point in the debate. Comments about keeping their legs shut, comments about promiscuity, comments about sex Ed and birth control leading to premarital sex. In the end, their judgements about women and sex are revealed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I always thought that what I would appreciate most about Roe v. Wade being overturned was that most anti-abortion voters would stop voting for candidates who, once they "save the babies," will get to their real agenda--destroying the environment, keeping families impoverished, fostering income inequality, and turning our government into an oligarchy. But I have been very disappointed...I feel as if many are in "more, more, we're still not satisfied" mode, as they seek to defund birth control, criminalize forms of birth control they deem "abortifacient," and end health programs in the third world. I have realized that they will never be satisfied. Many will keep having other goals--discriminating against LGBT's, putting 'a gun under every pillow' while remaining unconcerned about 'a chicken in every pot...' It will never end. Many will keep adding on issues that will allow them to vote for oligarchs, polluters, and supporters of indentured servitude for the 99%. I've really had it.

Response deleted.

 

[tall73]

I don’t think it’s intentional dishonesty or even manipulation.

So you think that we are just trying to prevent the killing of a life then? Because the rest of your post seemed to be more along the lines of it actually being dishonesty.

 

[tall73]

I don’t think it’s intentional dishonesty or even manipulation. I think that Christians who opposed abortion solely to protect the life of a baby would be aggressively promoting measures PROVEN to prevent unwanted pregnancies. As we’ve discussed at length.

Yes we have. However, we have also talked at length that contraception alone won't solve the problem. Per data from the abortion providers nearly 50 percent of people getting an abortion are using contraception. Contraception methods have failure rates.

Poverty is probably the largest common denominator behind many of these unwanted pregnancies. So we need to address that.

Fatherlessness is also correlated highly. We need to address that. I agree with aspects of the OP for that reason.

However, saying we just don't care about abortion, but just want to control women is a way to dismiss the actual concern--that it is a life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So you are on board with the pastors suggestion of working on the underlying reasons women choose abortion rather then trying to outlaw it?

My confidence in the modern church is not high and I dont think this is a Pastors role biblically.
Inspired believers would need to get involved in the process.
If Christian lawyers could help the lawmakers to recognise the unborn as humans, this would help greatly. As it stands mothers are brainwashed into believing they are not about to take a life. This is one of the underlying reasons for the high abortion rate.

 

[ChicanaRose]

For peace of mind limit your ministry to caring for yourself, your family and friends, your job, and your church.

You can certainly do that for yourself.

 

[Sparagmos]

So you think that we are just trying to prevent the killing of a life then? Because the rest of your post seemed to be more along the lines of it actually being dishonesty.

People aren’t always conscious of their motives. I’m fine with you saying I think you are being dishonest, but I don’t see it quite that way. I used to be pro-life. Those ideas were fed to me right along with sexual shame, judgement, and sexism. They went hand in hand.

 

[Fantine]

Those who oppose abortion in the Senate and the House, whether they are Democrat or Republican, male or female, do so because abortion gives mothers the legal right to kill their unborn children.

While I cannot be 100% sure of any legislator's motives (and neither can you--or anyone else) I judge their real intentions by their commitment to serving the common good through the legislative process.

The legislators I follow most closely are those in my own state (shudder). I track their actions through a statewide advocacy group--and the legislators who vote "pro-life" have an appalling record on serving the common good.

I am the legislative liaison for a progressive Christian women's group that is active in civil rights. I have also been a regional rep for the anti-death penalty group in our state. It's like Sisyphus rolling a stone uphill to influence these legislators. No matter how hard I look for barely discernable indications that they care about the rest of us, I can't find any. And so no, I don't believe they vote pro-life because they care about babies. They care about getting votes from social conservatives. That's all.

 

[tall73]

I used to be pro-life. Those ideas were fed to me right along with sexual shame, judgement, and sexism. They went hand in hand.

A baby is a baby regardless of what notions you were taught about sexual shame and sexism.

 

[tall73]

People aren’t always conscious of their motives. I’m fine with you saying I think you are being dishonest, but I don’t see it quite that way.

You are not convincing me by telling me I am just unaware of what I think.

 

[Sparagmos]

Yes we have. However, we have also talked at length that contraception alone won't solve the problem. Per data from the abortion providers nearly 50 percent of people getting an abortion are using contraception. Contraception methods have failure rates.

Poverty is probably the largest common denominator behind many of these unwanted pregnancies. So we need to address that.

Fatherlessness is also correlated highly. We need to address that. I agree with aspects of the OP for that reason.

However, saying we just don't care about abortion, but just want to control women is a way to dismiss the actual concern--that it is a life.

I don’t agree with your analysis. HUMAN ERROR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THOSE FAILURES. Look at Sweden. Sex Ed and access to contraception work. Contraception without proper education isn’t good enough. Yes on the poverty comment. Pro-lifers, for the most part, OPPOSE measures that help the poor.