Argument for God's existence.

[Moral Orel]

What I also see is that no christians are correcting me. You say that I keep messing up and that I am doing bad things on here, I fail to see that, and you would think in the most populated christian forum in the world that not just one one or two, but hundreds of christians would be correcting me if I was in error. I don't see that.

Don't read too much into the silence. It's against the rules of this forum for Christians to argue amongst themselves.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This entire post revolved around proving facts. Please by all means prove a fact to us. If you can? Or better yet pray to Mother nature, and ask her if she can prove some facts to you. As far as I know, nothing is proven but math.

Oh, I'm well aware that very little can actually be "proven" beyond mathematics. Fortunately, the colloquial meaning of the word "prove" is "to provide sufficient evidence to believe".

But one of the things you can prove to yourself is that God exists. Just by reading the OP over and over again until it sinks in.

I'm sorry, the plain truth is we've all heard these arguments before, because they were thoroughly debunked decades or even centuries before you posted them.

So I guess you have finally realized that I am not appealing to ignorance. So you were wrong, I assume this is why you didn't question my last post on it. Rather than question it, you simply go back on the solid proof I gave of God in the op. If you don't believe it, reread it. Maybe try some coffee, then reading the OP, and read all your replies. And my rebutals to your replies, and just be honest with yourself.

I always try to be honest with myself. If you are giving fallacious arguments for God's existence, I will be happy to explain the errors in them, as many people already have in this thread. If you say that you don't need to give arguments for God's existence because it's the job of atheists to prove that He doesn't exist, that is a fallacious argument too, called "The God of the Gaps", and I'll be happy to explain that one to you as well.

Is it a mean thing if I don't have any atheists on my prayer list? I think God is glorified in these talks, so why pray for change? I pray moreso that someone is affected by these conversations, that people all over the world read our discussions. I know I am not perfect and my thoughts and grammar and spelling are flawed. But the message comes out, so I really agree with you sir, absolutely. Keep the lines of communication open. In fact everyone I blocked in the past months I have unblocked. I am really happy to communicate with you guys. Don't be offended I don't pray for you guys. Its that I have the bigger picture in mind. I see that each thread I create, I don't look at the replies, I look at the views. My two threads I have posted are the second and third most viewed threads in the top page on the apologetics menu. The first most viewed is a slavery thread. Which is ok. Thats an easy one to answer. But anyway, christians see and read all these replies. And while you guys keep saying no Christians are helping me, thats fine. What I also see is that no christians are correcting me. You say that I keep messing up and that I am doing bad things on here, I fail to see that, and you would think in the most populated christian forum in the world that not just one one or two, but hundreds of christians would be correcting me if I was in error. I don't see that.

Can I suggest you do some more studying - not with the aim to become a better Christian, but with the aim of finding out the truth. If God is true, your studies will confirm that for you. If God isn't, well - isn't it best to know the truth?

 

[createdtoworship]

That’s kind of the point.

I also think that if every Christian that belongs to this site were to tell you you’re doing more harm than good, you wouldn’t change what you’re doing.

That’s also the point...

Have you ever once considered the fact that your allegation that i am doing more harm than good, is unsupported. Like your athiesm and virtually every post here? See, christians are no where to be found. Have you ever thought that perhaps it's you they don't feel comfortable discussing this with? After all you are a non christian on a christian site. Do I really have to remind you of this?

 

[createdtoworship]

Oh, I'm well aware that very little can actually be "proven" beyond mathematics. Fortunately, the colloquial meaning of the word "prove" is "to provide sufficient evidence to believe".


I'm sorry, the plain truth is we've all heard these arguments before, because they were thoroughly debunked decades or even centuries before you posted them.


I always try to be honest with myself. If you are giving fallacious arguments for God's existence, I will be happy to explain the errors in them, as many people already have in this thread. If you say that you don't need to give arguments for God's existence because it's the job of atheists to prove that He doesn't exist, that is a fallacious argument too, called "The God of the Gaps", and I'll be happy to explain that one to you as well.


Look, gradyll, I don't mean this unkindly, but you're not that good at apologetics. Can I suggest you do some more studying - not with the aim to become a better Christian, but with the aim of finding out the truth. If God is true, your studies will confirm that for you. If God isn't, well - isn't it best to know the truth?

I apologize, but all I read was one line where you were committing ad hominem ( abusive attack), if you wish for a reply, please edit your post as to address the message not the messenger , and let me know when it is edited. Otherwise I will move to other posters. I Surely hope you understand, thanks for the reply. (P.s.- remember most apologetics resources approach apologetics as something that can be proven, this is errorsome. So I would be different than most apologetics in that fashion, other than of course the cosmological argument which I belive can be proven.)

 

[createdtoworship]

Don't read too much into the silence. It's against the rules of this forum for Christians to argue amongst themselves.

I don't think it is against the rules to debate. As long as your polite and you don't question other Christians salvation specifically.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I apologize, but all I read was one line where you were committing ad hominem ( abusive attack), if you wish for a reply, please delete it, and let me know. Otherwise I will move to other posters. I Surely hope you understand, thanks for the reply.

I think you're confused about what ad hominem is. It would be ad hominem to say "Because my opponent is a _______, you should not believe his arguments". It's fair comment, however, to say "Your arguments are wrong because of A, B and C; therefore, I think you are a _______ for holding them."

Not wanting to give you grounds for feeling offence, however, I have deleted what I guess to be the section that offended you.

 

[Moral Orel]

I don't think it is against the rules to debate. As long as your polite and you don't question other Christians salvation specifically.

From the Apologetics Forum rules:

• Debate about Christian theology, beliefs, and practices between Christian members is discouraged.
• If Christians want to debate each other on a topic they should do so in the Christian Apologetics Center.

 

[createdtoworship]

From the Apologetics Forum rules:

• Debate about Christian theology, beliefs, and practices between Christian members is discouraged.
• If Christians want to debate each other on a topic they should do so in the Christian Apologetics Center.

they are just saying don't debate unless in a debate area, but debate is not against the rules. It's just discouraged.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think you're confused about what ad hominem is. It would be ad hominem to say "Because my opponent is a _______, you should not believe his arguments". It's fair comment, however, to say "Your arguments are wrong because of A, B and C; therefore, I think you are a _______ for holding them."

Not wanting to give you grounds for feeling offence, however, I have deleted what I guess to be the section that offended you.

ad hominem, is exactly what it says, it's when you address a person instead of their argument (ad hominem= against the person). Saying for example, "you are not good at this are you, let me help you out." Instead rather, to avoid fallacy say "I disagree with the conclusions of your posts, and I see errors in logic in what was said." This allows people to think you are debating what they say instead of revealing you simply don't like them and are trying to insult them.

 

[Moral Orel]

they are just saying don't debate unless in a debate area, but debate is not against the rules. It's just discouraged.

Sure, it's more of a "guideline" than a "rule". But the fact that folks are respecting that guideline isn't evidence that that there are a bunch of Christians who think you're doing a good job like you claimed.

 

[createdtoworship]

Oh, I'm well aware that very little can actually be "proven" beyond mathematics. Fortunately, the colloquial meaning of the word "prove" is "to provide sufficient evidence to believe".

however in debate that is not what proven has come to mean. On either side, the atheist or the christian. Giving evidence is not proof, but it's just rational inference to support a conclusion.

I'm sorry, the plain truth is we've all heard these arguments before, because they were thoroughly debunked decades or even centuries before you posted them.

so then repeat some of those arguments in this thread, as of yet I have not seen the OP refuted.

I always try to be honest with myself. If you are giving fallacious arguments for God's existence, I will be happy to explain the errors in them, as many people already have in this thread. If you say that you don't need to give arguments for God's existence because it's the job of atheists to prove that He doesn't exist, that is a fallacious argument too, called "The God of the Gaps", and I'll be happy to explain that one to you as well.

please by all means, please simply reply to the OP post (post number 1). But it's much nicer and politer just to debate and not get emotional over it (calling people names etc, unqualified, not very good etc).

Can I suggest you do some more studying - not with the aim to become a better Christian, but with the aim of finding out the truth. If God is true, your studies will confirm that for you. If God isn't, well - isn't it best to know the truth?

Sir God's existence is solid irrefutable fact, to go against it would be foolish. Please respond to the OP for the evidence. Again if you honestly wish to debate and stop this attack against me, I will believe it when you simply reply to post one, change the topic back to the topic of the forum, and off of me. The last few pages have simply been attacks on me. Subtle jabs, and more polite than flames, but still the forums recommend not making other peoples experience here miserable. I am used to it, so I am fine. But other christians may simply think your just in the christian forums to pick on christians, not really to be here to honesty discuss.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sure, it's more of a "guideline" than a "rule". But the fact that folks are respecting that guideline isn't evidence that that there are a bunch of Christians who think you're doing a good job like you claimed.

most christians I know in these forums don't really follow that rule, it's just a recommendation. If you go to the theology threads, you see christians debating all the time. There is a christian debating me in the hell thread, it's not against the rules to question peoples viewpoints, as long as you remain polite. So again, I don't see that happening here. I either intimidate christians and they don't want to confront me. (which is possible), or I am wrong. But if I was wrong, I would certainly see several responses to how I am debating. Another athiest in these threads said a christian disagreed with how I was debating, when he came into the thread, he didn't say a word to me. It just goes to show that they are either in the wrong themselves for questioning this tactic, or don't have the confidence to properly refute it. Which could be an indication of error on their part. But I welcome criticism. By all means, ask around and see for yourself. IF a christian disagrees with what I am saying, have them come here and state so or message me. They don't have to do it publically. They can message me. I would love to talk to them.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Have you ever once considered the fact that your allegation that i am doing more harm than good, is unsupported. Like your athiesm and virtually every post here? See, christians are no where to be found. Have you ever thought that perhaps it's you they don't feel comfortable discussing this with? After all you are a non christian on a christian site. Do I really have to remind you of this?

I now have three Christian friends who say you’re doing more harm than good. And I have an acquaintance who’s deconverted partly because of it threads like yours.

That, to me, is evidence that you’re doing more harm than good. Now, you might have different definitions for “harm” and “good”, so perhaps you think your results are “good”.

 

[createdtoworship]

A building is proof there is a builder, a painting is proof there is a painter. You don't have to see the existence of the builder or painte, the work is proof. That is what I mean that God is so easily proven.

 

[Tinker Grey]

We've seen building built. We can then with some confidence conclude that a builder built the building.

We've seen paintings painted. We can then with some confidence conclude that a painter painted the painting.

We've never seen a universe created, so we cannot conclude with any confidence that there is a creator.

The universe is not evidence of a creator.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

A building is proof there is a builder, a painting is proof there is a painter. You don't have to see the existence of the builder or painte, the work is proof. That is what I mean that God is so easily proven.

Just one of the defeaters for the argument from design is the fact that it employs false analogies...

 

[createdtoworship]

We've seen building built. We can then with some confidence conclude that a builder built the building.

We've seen paintings painted. We can then with some confidence conclude that a painter painted the painting.

We've never seen a universe created, so we cannot conclude with any confidence that there is a creator.

The universe is not evidence of a creator.

try again. You don't have to see a building built, to know it was built.

 

[createdtoworship]

I now have three Christian friends who say you’re doing more harm than good. And I have an acquaintance who’s deconverted partly because of it threads like yours.

That, to me, is evidence that you’re doing more harm than good. Now, you might have different definitions for “harm” and “good”, so perhaps you think your results are “good”.

thats ok. Not many christians agree with my tactics. I am fine with that. But let me give you a parable from the word of God:

On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea.
And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow.
“And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.
“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Matthew 13 nkjv

the seed is the gospel message, sometimes the seed falls on good soil and produces, but only a quarter of the time, most of the time, it falls on rocks or the birds devour the seed before it takes root, or sometimes it sprouts quickly in shallow soil, but then the cares of the world choke it out.

I hope that illustration shows you why some people leave the christian faith

as far as doing more harm than good, God desires all men to be saved yes, but not in that way.

many people tell the unsaved that God will make your life full of joy, and bless you with finances and God will also bless you with fulfillment. But I can tell you, as someone who has had bankruptsy and foreclosure that that is not the case. Both my parents died from drug addictions. After being saved for a number of years. So the christian life is not always easy. But it is fulfilling, that one I can attest to. I have just as many trials, and sometimes, they are more severe. But I can say that the more you follow God with all your heart, repenting of all disobedience, that He will draw closure to you, and I would not be suprised if He blessed you financially, and blessed your health as a result. But those are side effects of christianity, you don't sell that to the unsaved world. The unsaved world needs to know that God expects repentance with faith. He doesn't just want intellectual assent to the words of the Gospel, or a simple prayer of salvation, He want's repentance and faith.

 

[gaara4158]

A building is proof there is a builder, a painting is proof there is a painter. You don't have to see the existence of the builder or painte, the work is proof. That is what I mean that God is so easily proven.

False analogy. We are already fully aware of how buildings and paintings are made. We are not aware of how (or whether) universes are made. So your attempt to infer a creator for the universe from its mere existence does not follow from our ability to do so with buildings and paintings. I know this is a favorite word game if Ray Comfort’s to play and you’re reluctant to consider that he’s not a good apologist, but I’ve warned you time and time again that he’s not a good role model. Stop using these flimsy arguments already.

 

[createdtoworship]

False analogy. We are already fully aware of how buildings and paintings are made. We are not aware of how (or whether) universes are made. So your attempt to infer a creator for the universe from its mere existence does not follow from our ability to do so with buildings and paintings. I know this is a favorite word game if Ray Comfort’s to play and you’re reluctant to consider that he’s not a good apologist, but I’ve warned you time and time again that he’s not a good role model. Stop using these flimsy arguments already.

try again, you don't have to know how a building is made to know it was built.