Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Phil W]

@Phil W
Hi Phil I am interested in your testimony. Do you believe that one can fall from this position (and hopefully be restored) ?

No, I don't believe that is plausible.
1 John 3:9 says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
This would indicate that those who SEEM to fall away were never "born of God" to begin with.
You might as well ask if apple trees can be reborn as grape vines, and then restart bearing apples again.
A seed can only bear the fruit of it's progenitor.

Can they be restored?
Not in the literal sense, but they can start from scratch, as all real Christians have done for 2 thousand years.
There is an Advocate for those willing to submit to God.

 

[Phil W]

You are not sinless. You sin everyday I am sure. Any who claim sinless perfection are deluded sinners, full of a self righteousness.

As sure as you are, there is no way for you to make such a statement.
Is there sin in Christ?
NO, and the real "church" is Christ.
If you see sin in a church, it is not Christ's body.
Jesus said we could be free from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.
I attest that His words were true.

 

[bmjackson]

@Phil W

Thank you for your reply. So you do not agree with Wesley over this then. So where does your theology lie?

 

[bmjackson]

I do not pay attention to those men. They were trying to understand the scriptures in their day, without many study helps we use.
If you would like to make your scriptural case, I would react to it if you like.

Looking at Romans 7 then, you will say that the man is describing the normal Christian life. Correct? If you agree then, why was this interpretation unheard of till nearly halfway through the first millennium? Were the apostles often wrong because they did not have study aids?

 

[Phil W]

@Phil W

Thank you for your reply. So you do not agree with Wesley over this then. So where does your theology lie?

I'm not familiar with what Wesley teaches on the topic of "this". (I don't know which topic you refer to)
My theology is cited in the bible as the "doctrine which is according to Godliness." (1 Tim 6:3)

 

[bmjackson]

I'm not familiar with what Wesley teaches on the topic of "this". (I don't know which topic you refer to)
My theology is cited in the bible as the "doctrine which is according to Godliness." (1 Tim 6:3)

Wesley taught that it is possible to fall back from the sinless state and scripture records both Peter and Paul as doing so.

I mean which system do you adhere to?

 

[Phil W]

Brother, given the quick removal of sin that Jesus offers in the "daily" of the heavenly temple, there is no reason to think we cannot remain sinless? We can deal with sin as fast as we breathe by asking Jesus to forgive us the moment, we realize sin in us. All you need to grow fast is the help of the Holy Spirit, since these charismatics live and breathe with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they can achieve what God wants and has given us Jesus to be successful. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Hi,g'
It bothers me to read you believe "there is no reason to think we cannot remain sinless", then see you write "We can deal with sin as fast as we breathe by asking Jesus to forgive us the moment, we realize sin in us".
It looks like back-peddling to me.
Decide which one is reality in Christ.
Sinlessness or sin with quick forgiveness.
You can't have both.
Those born of God cannot commit sin because His seed remaineth in them. (1 John 3:9)
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

 

[Phil W]

Wesley taught that it is possible to fall back from the sinless state and scripture records both Peter and Paul as doing so.

I mean which system do you adhere to?

Wesley should have realized that those who seem to "fall back" were never reborn of God's seed to begin with.
BTW, scripture does not accuse Paul or Peter of sin. Only sinners find sin in the apostles for their own justification of their own sins.

 

[bmjackson]

Paul had to withstand Peter to his face when he lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit and Paul himself did the same when he insisted in going 'up to Jerusalem' when he was clearly being warned by the Spirit not to do so. He was arrested and imprisoned - the worst thing that could have happened to such a necessary evangelist. The fact that he expected to die shows that he was out of touch with the guidance of the Spirit. And then his behaviour at his trial. I believe he lied when he said that he did not know that his accusor was the chief priest. Paul would know that.

Why does Romans 7 v 22 say that "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" if the man is an unbeliever?

 

[guevaraj]

You can't have both. Those born of God cannot commit sin because His seed remaineth in them. (1 John 3:9) Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

Brother, we are constantly learning to draw closer to God discovering more sin in us, but it is not like before, where it was difficult to obtain forgiveness with the sacrifices of animals. With Jesus, the cycle of dealing with sin is much quicker, so fast that our growth in faith can deal with more sin than was possible before and that is why Jesus expanded His minimum ten commandments to not only deal with the external actions, but also with the internal thoughts that lead to those actions. If David had lived in our time, dealing with the thoughts that led to the act, he would never have sinned with Bathsheba, because God, through the Holy Spirit, would have worked on his thoughts long before they arose in the act. After Jesus, God demands more of us with the ten commandments then before Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

As sure as you are, there is no way for you to make such a statement.
Is there sin in Christ?
NO, and the real "church" is Christ.
If you see sin in a church, it is not Christ's body.
Jesus said we could be free from committing sin...in John 8:32-34.
I attest that His words were true.

You sin everyday my friend.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Looking at Romans 7 then, you will say that the man is describing the normal Christian life. Correct? If you agree then, why was this interpretation unheard of till nearly halfway through the first millennium? Were the apostles often wrong because they did not have study aids?

The apostles understood it. Some of the false teaching ECF, misunderstood, then people got back to scripture.

 

[BCsenior]

I know you are trying to helpful, but this woman was a deluded fanatic, so I do not pay attention to her teaching, it is false.

I read that she preached that there is no hell.
And a woman who claims to have visited hell says that she saw Ellen White there.

 

[BCsenior]

Brother, there is a “powerful delusion” to defend the Sunday tradition that replaces the Sabbath by linking it with Jesus as a celebration of the resurrection.

More on being FREE from the OT Laws, and
being FREE in Jesus (i.e. the new covenant):
"Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles —
free from those laws." (Galatians 4:12)

Of course, all of this is informational for BACs ... it is not to persuade those who have been deceived by Satan, churches, false doctrines!

 

[Phil W]

Paul had to withstand Peter to his face when he lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit

Hello again B'.
You say Peter lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit, so I must ask...did the "thousands at Jerusalem" also loose the guidance of the Holy Spirit? (Acts 21:20)
They were "zealous of the Law", as Peter was trying to be by separating from the Gentiles.
Peter was in that rare confluence(?)( conflux?) of Jewish and Gentile Christianity, and is portrayed as picking the wrong side.
Had the meeting taken place in Jerusalem, hosted by the Jewish believers, would they have been able to accept the Gentiles as equals?
Peter was stuck between a rock and a hard place, and a valuable teaching was brought forth.

...and Paul himself did the same when he insisted in going 'up to Jerusalem' when he was clearly being warned by the Spirit not to do so. He was arrested and imprisoned - the worst thing that could have happened to such a necessary evangelist. The fact that he expected to die shows that he was out of touch with the guidance of the Spirit. And then his behaviour at his trial. I believe he lied when he said that he did not know that his accusor was the chief priest. Paul would know that.

If such was a sin, why did God initially say to Ananias ..."But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" (Acts 9:15)...
And then have an angel say to Paul..."Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." (Acts 27:24)
This was Paul's purpose in his new life in Christ, not safety and comfort.
He had yet to speak with kings, but met a few after he was shipped off the Caesarea.

Why does Romans 7 v 22 say that "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" if the man is an unbeliever?

Paul uses the present-historical tense to relate a story of his previous life as a Jewish seeker of God. A Pharisee who couldn't do what he wanted in regard to Godliness. A man trapped in the flesh, and warring against the law of sin and death. (A law he was freed from by the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:2)
He is narrating what he went through before casting off the flesh to walk in the Spirit.

Good question though.

 

[Phil W]

Brother, we are constantly learning to draw closer to God discovering more sin in us,

Were that the truth, repentance from sin is a joke.
Never accomplished despite it having been labeled a grant from God. (Acts 11:18

but it is not like before, where it was difficult to obtain forgiveness with the sacrifices of animals. With Jesus, the cycle of dealing with sin is much quicker, so fast that our growth in faith can deal with more sin than was possible before and that is why Jesus expanded His minimum ten commandments to not only deal with the external actions, but also with the internal thoughts that lead to those actions.

How can a man who is of the seed of God commit sin?
Grape vines cannot bear figs, and those reborn of Godly seed cannot bring forth wickedness.

If David had lived in our time, dealing with the thoughts that led to the act, he would never have sinned with Bathsheba, because God, through the Holy Spirit, would have worked on his thoughts long before they arose in the act. After Jesus, God demands more of us with the ten commandments then before Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

If David lived in the NT, he would have been baptized into Christ and into Christ's death, killing the old David and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
The proof is attested to in the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Jorge, men who commit sin have not "returned to Jesus"...yet.

 

[Phil W]

You sin everyday my friend.

If the extent of our relationship is you accusing me of sin and me denying it is possible for a Christian to sin without... going into the details...we can terminate communications now.
But if you are at all willing to find out about the death of the old man who sins and the rebirth of the man who walks in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, and doesn't sin...we can go on.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

If the extent of our relationship is you accusing me of sin and me denying it is possible for a Christian to sin without... going into the details...we can terminate communications now.
But if you are at all willing to find out about the death of the old man who sins and the rebirth of the man who walks in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, and doesn't sin...we can go on.

You sin everyday in thought word and deed.
False teachers claim they are sinless by redefining sin.
You are not even close to being sinless . Only a proud self righteous spirit would say such a thing.
The apostle Paul wrote as a saved person In Roman's 7

 

[BCsenior]

False teachers claim they are sinless by redefining sin.
You are not even close to being sinless.

It is an incredible shame that ... you have NO comprehension of what repentance is all about.
Here's an example of what godly repentance can do, and will do, for BACs ...

2 Corinthians 7 (NKJV):
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter (1 Corinthians), I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

 

[Phil W]

You sin everyday in thought word and deed.

Accusations without proof are probably against the rules here, so stop it.

False teachers claim they are sinless by redefining sin.
You are not even close to being sinless . Only a proud self righteous spirit would say such a thing.
The apostle Paul wrote as a saved person In Roman's 7

The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (“that is, in my flesh”).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul still be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.

It is brilliant.