Islam Discussions with Muslims about Islam

[FEZZILLA]

There is no What you call Kitman or Taqya or pertaining different belief in Islam. Shias have this but should be against Sunnis specifically.

One can lie (not Taqya not Kitman) in some cases:

• One on his wife/husband. Things like you're the most beautiful man/woman...
• Solve conflicts between wife/husband or groups or tribes
• On enemy

Even some scholars disagree to lie in such situations.

Vice versa is correct, Allah and Prophet ordered us all the time to demonstrate our belief and show differences especially in behavior with other religion.
In some circumstances, whenever life is in threat , Muslim can say something to non-Muslims to release him. But it's not allowed for Shikh who should face tyrants or non-Muslims.

Taqiyya is real Islamic doctrine and I will use Sunni references only to prove it for you.

Noble Qur'an 3:28, The Family of Imran (Madinah Period)

"Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return."


Other Translations:

Yusuf Ali,

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah."

Arberry Koran,

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends, rather than the believers -- for whoso does that belongs not to God in anything -- unless you have a fear of them. God warns you that You beware of Him, and unto God is the homecoming."

Tafsir (The exegesis of the Qur'an)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

لَا يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَمَنْ يَفْعَلْ ذَٰلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً ۗ وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ ۗ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ٢٨

28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers
Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَىْءٍ﴾
(And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way) meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ عَدُوِّى وَعَدُوَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ تُلْقُونَ إِلَيْهِمْ بِالْمَوَدَّةِ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them), until,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْهُ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ السَّبِيلِ﴾
(And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.) ﴿60:1﴾. Allah said,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَجْعَلُواْ للَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ سُلْطَاناً مُّبِيناً ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves) ﴿4:144﴾, and,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.) ﴿5:51﴾.

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,

﴿وَالَّذينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ إِلاَّ تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِى الاٌّرْضِ وَفَسَادٌ كَبِيرٌ ﴾
(And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.) ﴿8:73﴾.

Allah said next,

﴿إِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً﴾
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said,

﴿وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ﴾
(And Allah warns you against Himself.) meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends,

﴿وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ﴾
(And to Allah is the final return) meaning, the return is to Him and He will reward or punish each person according to their deeds.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - English [3. Ali-Imran - Verse: 28]
_______________________________________________________________
The Hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Vol.6, Hadith [6633] 101 - (2605),

"Chapter 27. Prohibition Of Lying, And What Is Permitted Thereof
[6633] 101 - (2605) Humaid bin 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf narrated that his mother, Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait -- who was one of the first Muhajir women who swore alligiance to the Prophet--told him that she heard the Messenger of Allah say: "He is not a liar who reconciles between people, saying good things and conveying good things."
Ibn Shihab said (in his Hadith that she said): "I did not hear of any concession being granted concerning anything that people call lies except in three cases: War, reconciling among people, and what a man says to his wife or a woman says to her husband."

Sahih Muslim, Vol.2 (Summarized edition), Book 55, Chapter 49, hadith 1810,

"(49) CHAPTER. Permissible lies
1810. Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abu Mu'ait (who was from the first emigrants) narrated that she heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "He who makes peace between people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
Ibn Shihab said: "I heard nothing where what people say can be permissible as lies except in three: war, to make people reconcile and a man's talk to make his wife happy."
In another narration: Umm Kulthum said: "I heard nothing permissible as a lie except these three."

This covers all relations with non-muslims. For Islam is a "war against all" and muslims are constantly at war with fitnah (i.e., unbelief).

 

[JosephZ]

Taqiyya is real Islamic doctrine and I will use Sunni references only to prove it for you.

The word taqiyya isn't found anywhere in the Qur'an, But here is the definition:

Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”

Below is the ONLY verse found in the Qur'an that mentions lying as being acceptable and even then it is better to choose death rather than to lie as the Hadith below it states:

"As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but only, to him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth upon all such falls God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them" (Qur'an 16:106)

"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

This following Hadith makes it clear that lying is forbidden:

"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

So as you can see a Muslim is only permitted to lie about one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution, imminent harm or death. In all other cases lying is forbidden and will lead to Hell.

An example where a lie would be acceptable, If someone puts a gun to a Muslims head and asks them if they are a Muslim, they can lie in a situation like that since the answer they give may cost them their life.

The following hadith says it is one of the greatest of sins.

"Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!" (Wasaelush Shia)

So based on the above, what do you thing the average Muslim's position is on lying?

Here's a good video on the subject and how the myth of tiqiyya came about. You will recognize some of the names and faces that show up. (Be sure to read the comments below the video as well)

 

[Barney2.0]

in your experience does this upper hand help these people come closer to Christ?

I’m not preacher, usually I defend my faith against they’re attacks, but I’ve had a case where a Muslim generally asked questions because he really wanted to learn about Christianity.

 

[FEZZILLA]

The word taqiyya isn't found anywhere in the Qur'an,

I just quoted from the Qur'an in my last post:

Noble Qur'an 3:28, The Family of Imran (Madinah Period)

"Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return."

But here is the definition:

No, here's the official Islamic meaning of the verse. You do understand that tafsir is the exegesis of the Qur'an, right? I am quoting from one of the greatest classical tafsir scholars of all time -- Ibn Kathir.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

لَا يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَمَنْ يَفْعَلْ ذَٰلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَيْءٍ إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تُقَاةً ۗ وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ ۗ وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ٢٨

28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers
Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَىْءٍ﴾
(And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way) meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ عَدُوِّى وَعَدُوَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ تُلْقُونَ إِلَيْهِمْ بِالْمَوَدَّةِ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them), until,

﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْهُ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ السَّبِيلِ﴾
(And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.) ﴿60:1﴾. Allah said,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَجْعَلُواْ للَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ سُلْطَاناً مُّبِيناً ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves) ﴿4:144﴾, and,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.) ﴿5:51﴾.

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,

﴿وَالَّذينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ إِلاَّ تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِى الاٌّرْضِ وَفَسَادٌ كَبِيرٌ ﴾
(And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.) ﴿8:73﴾.

Allah said next,

﴿إِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً﴾
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said,

﴿وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ﴾
(And Allah warns you against Himself.) meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends,

﴿وَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ﴾
(And to Allah is the final return) meaning, the return is to Him and He will reward or punish each person according to their deeds.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - English [3. Ali-Imran - Verse: 28]

Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”

Fitnah means disbelief, mischief, persecution. Muslims feel persecuted whenever those mischievous disbelievers don't approve of Islam. That is how the Sirah describes and how the Qur'an describes it and in various passages. Right now all over the west muslims are claiming victim status and yet nothing is happening to them other than people protesting their beliefs which are not very kind to unbelievers. Muhammad said Islam is a "war against all" in the Sirah of Ibn Ishaq.

Christians would rather die before denouncing their faith because they are convicted their beliefs are true. Muslims lie to save their lives which says little about their convictions.

Below is the ONLY verse found in the Qur'an that mentions lying as being acceptable and even then it is better to choose death rather than to lie as the Hadith below it states:

"As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but only, to him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth upon all such falls God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them" (Qur'an 16:106)

This is about apostasy. Muhammad said this in addition to whoever leaves Islam:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.9, Book 88, Hadith 6922,

"Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali; and he burnt them. The news of this event reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

 

[FEZZILLA]

"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death."

This hadith goes with Qur'an 2:173. I will quote that verse with another highly respected tafsir scholar of the Qur'an.

Noble Qur'an 2:173, The Cow (Madinah Period)

"He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,

"Carrion,
This applies to animals which are normally slaughtered but have died without being slaughtered, and to animals which may not be eaten even if they have been slaughtered, such as beasts of prey.
This ayat in general and is qualified by the words of the Prophet, "Two kinds of carrion are lawful for us: fish and locusts; and the blood of the liver and spleen is also lawful." (ad-Daraqutni). This is an instance of the hadith qualifying a general text in the Qur'an. Most of the people of knowledge permit the eating of all the animals of the sea, alive or dead, and this is the school of Malik. He hesitated about "sea pigs" (dolphins) and said, "You said 'pig'!" Ibn al-Qasim said, "I am cautious about it but do not think that it is haram."

and what has been consecrated to other than Allah.
This is something over which other than the Name of Allah was mentioned when it was slaughtered. It refers to the slaughtering done by Magians, idol worshippers and atheists. The idol worshipper sacrifices to an idol, the Magian to the fire, and the atheist, who does not believe in anything, slaughters for himself. There is no disagreement among the scholars that whatever a Magian or idol worshipper slaughters to their idol or fire may not be eaten. According to Malik, ash-Shafi'i and others, what such people sacrifice to the fire or idol may not be eaten at all. Ibn al-Musayyab and Abu Thawr, however, permit that meat to be eaten if it is slaughtered for a Muslim at his order. This will be explained in more detail in Surat al-Ma'ida. The word "consecration" (uhilla) means "to raise the voice". Ibn 'Abbas said, "What is meant is what is sacrificed to idols and stones." The custom of the Arabs was to shout the name of the one intended by the sacrifice. That was their usual practice and so it is considered to be tantamount to the intention.

But anyone who is forced to eat it--
If someone is physically forced to drink wine, he may drink it but if it is on account of hunger or thirst, he should not do so. That is what Malik said according to al-'Utbiyya. It is the position of ash-Shafi'i. Allah completely forbade wine and forbade carrion provided that there is no dire necessity. Al-Abhari says, "If wine will remove hunger or thirst from him, he should drink it because Allah says that pigs are impure but then permits them in case of necessity. Allah calls wine an impurity and it should be included under the same permission as that of pigs in necessity according to the apparent meaning which is stronger than using analogy. Asbagh related that Ibn al-Qasim said, "Someone in dire need may drink blood but not wine. He may eat carrion but not take advantage of lost camels." Ibn Wahb also said that. He may drink urine but should not go near wine because the hadd is obliged for it, and because of this the prohibition is stronger.
If someone chokes on food, is wine allowed or not to relieve it? It is said that it is not, out of the fear that people will simply use that as an excuse. Ibn Habib claims that it is permitted in that instance because it is a case of necessity. Ibn al-'Arabi said, "Someone who chokes on something is permitted it in respect of what is between him and Allah. As for what is between him and us, if we see him, the circumstances are not hidden from us in that he is choking on something and so he is believed if he shows that. If he does not show it, he is given the hadd outwardly but is safe from the punishment of Allah inwardly if it really is the case."
If someone who is in dire need finds carrion, pork and human flesh, he may eat carrion because it is halal for him in that one situation whereas pork and human flesh never are, and so it is better to go for the lessor prohibition. . . . . This is the rule in these judgments. He should not eat human flesh, even if that results in his death. Our scholars said that and Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Da'ud relate that. Ash-Shafi'i says that he would.

Or going to excess in it--
Masruq said, "If someone needs to eat carrion, blood, and pork, and then does not eat and dies as a consequence, he will enter the Fire unless Allah pardons him. Eating carrion in necessity is an allowance but in his case becomes mandatory."

This following Hadith makes it clear that lying is forbidden:

"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

This is about the teachings of Islam addressed from one muslim to another, and has nothing to do with disbelievers. The Hadith below is about disbelievers and lying to them.

Sahih Muslim, Vol.6, Hadith [6633] 101 - (2605),

"Chapter 27. Prohibition Of Lying, And What Is Permitted Thereof
[6633] 101 - (2605) Humaid bin 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf narrated that his mother, Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait -- who was one of the first Muhajir women who swore alligiance to the Prophet--told him that she heard the Messenger of Allah say: "He is not a liar who reconciles between people, saying good things and conveying good things."
Ibn Shihab said (in his Hadith that she said): "I did not hear of any concession being granted concerning anything that people call lies except in three cases: War, reconciling among people, and what a man says to his wife or a woman says to her husband."

Sahih Muslim, Vol.2 (Summarized edition), Book 55, Chapter 49, hadith 1810,

"(49) CHAPTER. Permissible lies
1810. Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah bin Abu Mu'ait (who was from the first emigrants) narrated that she heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "He who makes peace between people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
Ibn Shihab said: "I heard nothing where what people say can be permissible as lies except in three: war, to make people reconcile and a man's talk to make his wife happy."
In another narration: Umm Kulthum said: "I heard nothing permissible as a lie except these three."

Islam is a "war against all" and muslims are always at war with the disbelievers. A good look at the world today interprets the Qur'an perfectly. For Islamic jihad is the most important part of the Islamic faith and lying to disbelievers is an act of war, as Muhammad said many times in the Hadith..."war is deceit."

So as you can see a Muslim is only permitted to lie about one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution, imminent harm or death. In all other cases lying is forbidden and will lead to Hell.

They lie to unbelievers to pacify them so they do not catch on to the plans and plots against them.

An example where a lie would be acceptable, If someone puts a gun to a Muslims head and asks them if they are a Muslim, they can lie in a situation like that since the answer they give may cost them their life.

Maybe you should ask the Christians that who are being exterminated in the hundreds of thousands right now. They did not recant because they know their faith in Christ is true and the muslims are proving it true. Jesus said Christians will be persecuted because they hate Him.

The following hadith says it is one of the greatest of sins.

"Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!" (Wasaelush Shia)

Anyone who speaks a falsehood, say, about Muhammad, is a liar. This refers to Islamic doctrine and not relations with the disbelievers. However, if Muslims accuse a disbeliever of speaking falsehood against Muhammad, even if what is said is true, then according to Islamic law that person is to be killed. This covers unbelievers who protest against Islam.

 

[JosephZ]

No, here's the official Islamic meaning of the verse. You do understand that tafsir is the exegesis of the Qur'an, right? I am quoting from one of the greatest classical tafsir scholars of all time -- Ibn Kathir.

Yes, I am familiar with Ibn Kathir and he is no doubt the favorite scholar of anti-Islam propagandists. This exposes your error. Your interpretation of Islam is coming primarily from a single source, a Salafi Scholar. Do you believe a single scholar should represent a religion? That would be like picking a single Bible scholar or commentator and saying they speak for all of Christendom. You are also taking Ibn kathir's material out of context and not providing his full commentary which also distorts what is being said. This exactly what Muslims belonging to the Wahhabi or Salafi movements do which leads to extremism.

Those who belong to these movements make up less than 1% of the world's Muslim population.

Just like most Christians don't put all of their stock into a single Bible scholar or commentator, neither do better than 99% of the Muslims in the world.

 

[JosephZ]

I just quoted from the Qur'an in my last post:

Noble Qur'an 3:28, The Family of Imran (Madinah Period)

"Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return."

And yet if you were to stop ten Muslims randomly on the street and ask them about taqiyya, you might find one that has ever heard term, and of that one, they would not interpret the way you do. Why do you think that is?

Right now all over the west muslims are claiming victim status and yet nothing is happening to them other than people protesting their beliefs which are not very kind to unbelievers.

So you consider the many attacks against mosques, shootings of Muslims, and Muslims getting ran down with vehicles in western countries nothing?

Here are a few examples from the US:

• The Dearborn mosque bombing plot: A man was arrested and charged with terrorism after attempting to blow up the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Michigan, which has large Arab-American and Muslim populations.
• The murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi: Balbir Singh Sodhi, who wore a beard and a turban in accordance with his Sikh faith, was mistaken for an Arab Muslim. The perpetrator had reportedly told friends that he was "going to go out and shoot some towel-heads" the day of the attacks.
• The Islamic Center in Columbia was firebombed with Molotov cocktails by members of the right-wing extremist Christian Identity Movement.
• Sunando Sen, a 46-year-old Indian immigrant, was hit and killed by a subway train when a woman pushed him onto the track. The woman later told authorities that she hates Muslims and "ever since 2001 when they put down the twin towers I've been beating them up."
• A man gunned down Iraqi artist Hassan Alawsi in the parking lot of a Home Depot. Police suspect the shooter was motivated by "his dislike of people of Middle Eastern descent."
• The killing of Abdisamad Sheikh-Hussein: A Muslim Somali-American student at Staley High School was killed near the Kansas City Somali Center, a man intentionally rammed his car into him, knocking him into the air, and then ran over him, nearly severing his legs.[281] The driver of the car made rants against Islam and threats against Muslim worshippers outside a mosque. The SUV used in the attack had an anti-Muslim bumper sticker which compared the Quran with Ebola, while another stated that "Islam is worse than Ebola"
• A pastor from Tennessee planned and stockpiled weapons with the intent of committing mass atrocities against Muslims in New York.
• The 2016 Minneapolis shooting where a man shot at five Somali-Americans, wounding two of them. Witnesses later recounted that Sawina shouted Anti-Muslim expletives and stated he was going to "going to kill you all."
• Maulama Akonjee, a 55-year-old imam, and his assistant, 64-year-old Thara Uddin, was shot and killed while on their way home from Al-Furqan Jame Mosque in Ozone Park, Queens.
• A Lebanese-American man was shot and killed on his porch in by an neighbor who regularly called him a "dirty Muslim" and "Arab" despite him being Christian.
• The 2016 Garden City bombing plot: Three men monitored apartment blocks which were known to house Muslim refugees, stockpiled an arsenal of weapons, and planned to kill by detonating explosives in four trucks laden with ammonium nitrate.
• A man kicked a Muslim airline worker and told her “Trump is here now” and “he will get rid of all of you.”
• 4 Men were arrested and 23 Guns Seized in Plot to bomb and massacre Muslims in Upstate N.Y.
• 2017 Kansas shooting: A man shot and killed an Indian immigrant engineer he thought was Middle Eastern and wounded two others after shouting "get out of my country" and opening fire.
• A man beat an Arab employee of Al Aqsa Restaurant with a pipe, yelling "go back to your country terrorist" and "get out of America."
• 2017 Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center bombing: Bomb detonated in the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center in Bloomington.

There are many many more examples from the US and other western countries at the link List of Islamophobic incidents - Wikipedia

In 2017, Braniff told ABC News that his team of researchers had seen an increase in "terrorist attacks targeted against Muslims" worldwide. And though most terrorist attacks still occur in Muslim-majority countries, there has also been an increase in attacks targeting Muslims in Europe and the United States.

A watchdog group in Britain found that, in 2017, a record number of anti-Muslim attacks were reported in the United Kingdom. That year, in London, a man rammed a van into Muslims outside a mosque who were leaving Ramadan prayer. (One man died in the attack, and nine were injured.)

In Germany, a media group found instances of more than 3,500 attacks on (largely Syrian) refugees and refugee hostels in the country in 2016. Researchers note that, because attacks on Muslims do not always register in the news if they do not result in fatalities—and because such attacks are often called hate crimes instead of terrorist attacks—news audiences may not be aware of the prevalence of anti-Muslim violence.

50 muslims killed in attacks on Mosques in New Zealand

And you say nothing is happening to Muslims in the west?

 

[FEZZILLA]

Yes, I am familiar with Ibn Kathir and he is no doubt the favorite scholar of anti-Islam propagandists. This exposes your error. Your interpretation of Islam is coming primarily from a single source, a Salafi Scholar. Do you believe a single scholar should represent a religion? That would be like picking a single Bible scholar or commentator and saying they speak for all of Christendom. You are also taking Ibn kathir's material out of context and not providing his full commentary which also distorts what is being said. This exactly what Muslims belonging to the Wahhabi or Salafi movements do which leads to extremism.

Those who belong to these movements make up less than 1% of the world's Muslim population.

Just like most Christians don't put all of their stock into a single Bible scholar or commentator, neither do better than 99% of the Muslims in the world.

(sigh) Tafsir is the exegesis of the Qur'an...the interpretation of the meanings. I use three tafsirs for study and all three are of high repute. I use Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, and Tafsir Al-Jalalayn. The only good Tafsir I do not own is Tafsir Al-Tabari because it costs several thousand dollars to afford the entire set, and a few thousand dollars to afford the most important books of the set. Its way expensive! And the Tafsir Al-Qurtubi I have only covers the first two Surahs. I doubt they will ever translate the full tafsir of that. Then westerners will have to read about how Al-Shafi'i, one of the founders of the four schools of Islamic Jurisprudence, go on a long rant about eating people, eating unbelievers. But you will never read it because it will never be translated into English. But my Arabic speaking friends all say its in there! I posted once from Tafsir Al-Qurtubi where we see Al-Shafi'i say he would eat people. But that is Surah 2 and I believe his longer rant is found in Surah 4 where the verse repeats again.

I bought a Salafi Qur'an from a Salafi dealer in Egypt. I must say he knows how to treat costumers because he was the best Islamic book dealer I did business with. He even sent me a free small size Muhsin Khan Noble Qur'an with my purchase. What that told me is that the most popular translation of the Qur'an is approved by Salafi Islam and Salafi Islam is the same Islam of Muhammad.

Links to Tafsir Ibn Kathir

https://www.amazon.com/Tafsir-Ibn-Kathir-Volumes-Abridged/dp/1591440203

Ibn Kathir is also the top Islamic scholar of Tribulation and the portents of the hours.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Individual Volumes - Dar-us-Salam Publications

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - ENGLISH (10 Volumes) - Dar-us-Salam Publications

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 10 Volume Full Set

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 4 volume set English (Abridged) (Muhammad Anis Gad Khalil) with Arabic Qur'anic Text

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 10-Vol. Complete Set (DS Ed.) - original, authorized edition from Darussalam Saudi with paper covers

[10 vol set] Tafsir Ibn Kathir

https://www.sifatusafwa.com/en/enti...html?search_query=Tafsir+Ibn+Kathir&results=9

https://www.dakwahbookstore.com.my/product/tafsir-ibn-kathir10-volumes/

https://onlineislamicbook.com/tafsir-ibn-kathir-10-volume-set/

These are just a few links to Islamic bookstores. There are many others.

 

[FEZZILLA]

And yet if you were to stop ten Muslims randomly on the street and ask them about taqiyya, you might find one that has ever heard term, and of that one, they would not interpret the way you do. Why do you think that is?


So you consider the many attacks against mosques, shootings of Muslims, and Muslims getting ran down with vehicles in western countries nothing?

Here are a few examples from the US:

• The Dearborn mosque bombing plot: A man was arrested and charged with terrorism after attempting to blow up the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Michigan, which has large Arab-American and Muslim populations.
• The murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi: Balbir Singh Sodhi, who wore a beard and a turban in accordance with his Sikh faith, was mistaken for an Arab Muslim. The perpetrator had reportedly told friends that he was "going to go out and shoot some towel-heads" the day of the attacks.
• The Islamic Center in Columbia was firebombed with Molotov cocktails by members of the right-wing extremist Christian Identity Movement.
• Sunando Sen, a 46-year-old Indian immigrant, was hit and killed by a subway train when a woman pushed him onto the track. The woman later told authorities that she hates Muslims and "ever since 2001 when they put down the twin towers I've been beating them up."
• A man gunned down Iraqi artist Hassan Alawsi in the parking lot of a Home Depot. Police suspect the shooter was motivated by "his dislike of people of Middle Eastern descent."
• The killing of Abdisamad Sheikh-Hussein: A Muslim Somali-American student at Staley High School was killed near the Kansas City Somali Center, a man intentionally rammed his car into him, knocking him into the air, and then ran over him, nearly severing his legs.[281] The driver of the car made rants against Islam and threats against Muslim worshippers outside a mosque. The SUV used in the attack had an anti-Muslim bumper sticker which compared the Quran with Ebola, while another stated that "Islam is worse than Ebola"
• A pastor from Tennessee planned and stockpiled weapons with the intent of committing mass atrocities against Muslims in New York.
• The 2016 Minneapolis shooting where a man shot at five Somali-Americans, wounding two of them. Witnesses later recounted that Sawina shouted Anti-Muslim expletives and stated he was going to "going to kill you all."
• Maulama Akonjee, a 55-year-old imam, and his assistant, 64-year-old Thara Uddin, was shot and killed while on their way home from Al-Furqan Jame Mosque in Ozone Park, Queens.
• A Lebanese-American man was shot and killed on his porch in by an neighbor who regularly called him a "dirty Muslim" and "Arab" despite him being Christian.
• The 2016 Garden City bombing plot: Three men monitored apartment blocks which were known to house Muslim refugees, stockpiled an arsenal of weapons, and planned to kill by detonating explosives in four trucks laden with ammonium nitrate.
• A man kicked a Muslim airline worker and told her “Trump is here now” and “he will get rid of all of you.”
• 4 Men were arrested and 23 Guns Seized in Plot to bomb and massacre Muslims in Upstate N.Y.
• 2017 Kansas shooting: A man shot and killed an Indian immigrant engineer he thought was Middle Eastern and wounded two others after shouting "get out of my country" and opening fire.
• A man beat an Arab employee of Al Aqsa Restaurant with a pipe, yelling "go back to your country terrorist" and "get out of America."
• 2017 Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center bombing: Bomb detonated in the Dar Al-Farooq Islamic Center in Bloomington.

There are many many more examples from the US and other western countries at the link List of Islamophobic incidents - Wikipedia

In 2017, Braniff told ABC News that his team of researchers had seen an increase in "terrorist attacks targeted against Muslims" worldwide. And though most terrorist attacks still occur in Muslim-majority countries, there has also been an increase in attacks targeting Muslims in Europe and the United States.

A watchdog group in Britain found that, in 2017, a record number of anti-Muslim attacks were reported in the United Kingdom. That year, in London, a man rammed a van into Muslims outside a mosque who were leaving Ramadan prayer. (One man died in the attack, and nine were injured.)

In Germany, a media group found instances of more than 3,500 attacks on (largely Syrian) refugees and refugee hostels in the country in 2016. Researchers note that, because attacks on Muslims do not always register in the news if they do not result in fatalities—and because such attacks are often called hate crimes instead of terrorist attacks—news audiences may not be aware of the prevalence of anti-Muslim violence.

50 muslims killed in attacks on Mosques in New Zealand

And you say nothing is happening to Muslims in the west?

This is how many young westerners are reacting to being silenced by political correctness. That is why we have the 1st Amendment...so speech is not censored and people don't react violently. But progressives believe in silencing speech and this type of fascism builds of anger in young people who are not allowed to protest Islam and some of them lash out through violence. America is a country of free speech and open debate.

 

[JosephZ]

This is how many young westerners are reacting to being silenced by political correctness. That is why we have the 1st Amendment...so speech is not censored and people don't react violently. But progressives believe in silencing speech and this type of fascism builds of anger in young people who are not allowed to protest Islam and some of them lash out through violence. America is a country of free speech and open debate.

This is what you said:

Right now all over the west muslims are claiming victim status and yet nothing is happening to them other than people protesting their beliefs which are not very kind to unbelievers. Muhammad said Islam is a "war against all" in the Sirah of Ibn Ishaq.

That statement is incorrect.

 

[FEZZILLA]

This is what you said:

That statement is incorrect.

Only a Democrat voting liberal would say that. 100% of the conservative base disagree with you. You have no authoritative Islamic sources to back up your bark here. You use only post 9-11 liberal sources which are a corruption of Islam and not what is actually taught in Islam's most sacred books.

 

[FEZZILLA]

And yet if you were to stop ten Muslims randomly on the street and ask them about taqiyya, you might find one that has ever heard term, and of that one, they would not interpret the way you do. Why do you think that is?

And that is taqiyya. I will ask Muhammad what Islam is about and Muhammad outranks the entire world of Islam and their scholars. Its never about what muslims tell us, its what Muhammad tells them.

 

[JosephZ]

Only a Democrat voting liberal would say that.

I'm a Republican. If you know how to use the internet that's easy to verify with a little bit of effort.

100% of the conservative base disagree with you.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here. You said nothing was happening to Muslims in the west other than people protesting them, and I showed you where Muslims were being killed and targeted for attacks on a regular basis for being Muslims. That's the truth.

 

[JosephZ]

And that is taqiyya. I will ask Muhammad what Islam is about and Muhammad outranks the entire world of Islam and their scholars. Its never about what muslims tell us, its what Muhammad tells them.

Of course it would be taqiyya. BTW, did you watch this video I shared earlier?

 

[JosephZ]

@fizzilla I'm going to have to bail out for a while as I have an appointment to attend. I will be looking forward to reading some of your peer reviewed research when I get back online.

In the meantime I would like to repeat what I said earlier in the thread for those who want to have a constructive discussion with Muslims about Islam.

My advice for Christians who have a heart for Muslims and want to share their faith with them or have the desire to have discussions with Muslims about Islam is to first get to know some Muslims in your community and learn from them. Be a good listener and let your curiosity drive the direction of your conversation with them.

There is no substitute to talking to real Muslims when it comes to learning about Islam and what they believe. If you are not aware of any Muslims in your community go online and find the nearest mosque or Islamic center. Go to a mosque in your area and ask the imam there to explain things like abrogation, taqiyya, and jihad. I can assure you the answers you get concerning these topics will be nothing like the videos and articles shared in this thread describe them. And no, it will not be because the Muslim you talk to will be practicing taqiyya or will be trying to intentionally deceive you. Lying is forbidden in Islam, is considered to be one of the greatest sins, and leads to condemnation.

When discussing Islam with a Muslim, don’t criticize their religion, Muslims, or Muhammad. Your aim should never be to condemn, insult, or embarrass Muslims, but to love, respect, and accept them. A Christian is a representative of Jesus Christ and we should respect a Muslim's opinions and ways of believing even if we may disagree with them.

The second best option for those who want to discuss religion with Muslims is to study Islam on their own. As a Christian missionary working in the Muslim community I highly recommend this free online course: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

 

[FEZZILLA]

@fizzilla I'm going to have to bail out for a while as I have an appointment to attend. I will be looking forward to reading some of your peer reviewed research when I get back online.

In the meantime I would like to repeat what I said earlier in the thread for those who want to have a constructive discussion with Muslims about Islam.

My advice for Christians who have a heart for Muslims and want to share their faith with them or have the desire to have discussions with Muslims about Islam is to first get to know some Muslims in your community and learn from them. Be a good listener and let your curiosity drive the direction of your conversation with them.

There is no substitute to talking to real Muslims when it comes to learning about Islam and what they believe. If you are not aware of any Muslims in your community go online and find the nearest mosque or Islamic center. Go to a mosque in your area and ask the imam there to explain things like abrogation, taqiyya, and jihad. I can assure you the answers you get concerning these topics will be nothing like the videos and articles shared in this thread describe them. And no, it will not be because the Muslim you talk to will be practicing taqiyya or will be trying to intentionally deceive you. Lying is forbidden in Islam, is considered to be one of the greatest sins, and leads to condemnation.

When discussing Islam with a Muslim, don’t criticize their religion, Muslims, or Muhammad. Your aim should never be to condemn, insult, or embarrass Muslims, but to love, respect, and accept them. A Christian is a representative of Jesus Christ and we should respect a Muslim's opinions and ways of believing even if we may disagree with them.

The second best option for those who want to discuss religion with Muslims is to study Islam on their own. As a Christian missionary working in the Muslim community I highly recommend this free online course: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

Go ask an Imam

I've gone on those sites many time only to see Imams lie about core doctrines just to appease the questioner.

Muhammad...not muslims...is the authority of Islam. The Hadith teaches a muslim how to be a muslim. The Qur'an doesn't teach that. Muhammad is Allah as Allah was just Muhammad sock-puppet.

Funny how you insist that people should learn Islam from second hand sources instead of learning it from the Qur'an, Sunnah, Tafsir, and Islamic Jurisprudence. But go ask am Imam and get a load of taqiyya. I already proved to you that taqiyya was Islamic doctrine but you rejected Sahih Muslim and Ibn Kathir as legitimate Islamic sources

I had to post several links to Islamic bookstores before you even knew Ibn Kathir was a major Islamic scholar. You said he was an irrelevant Salafi scholar only used by anti-muslims. The whole world of Islam knows that Tafsir Ibn Kathir is a major scholar in Islamic exegesis. Likewise with Tafsir al-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, and Tafsir Al-Jalalayn. But you prefer to go to these progressive sites and trust what you read from them over actual Islamic sources that muslims read

 

[JosephZ]

I had to post several links to Islamic bookstores before you even knew Ibn Kathir was a major Islamic scholar. You said he was an irrelevant Salafi scholar only used by anti-muslims.

Please show me where I said this. I know who Ibn kathir is and probably did long before you ever showed an interest in Islam.

 

[JosephZ]

Go ask an Imam.
Muhammad...not muslims...is the authority of Islam.

Muhammad is dead, so that leaves Muslims as the authority on Islam for today.

I've gone on those sites many time only to see Imams lie about core doctrines just to appease the questioner.

I highly doubt they were lying to you. They probably disagreed with you and that in turn made you classify them as a liar. You have shown this to be the case in many posts over the past 24 hours. You have even suggested that I'm using taqiyya.

Someone disagreeing with your point of view doesn't equate to them lying.

The Hadith teaches a muslim how to be a muslim. The Qur'an doesn't teach that.

The hadiths are a secondary source of Islamic guidance. The Qur'an overrides the hadiths and the Qur'an is the primary source that teaches a Muslim how to be a Muslim.

Funny how you insist that people should learn Islam from second hand sources instead of learning it from the Qur'an, Sunnah, Tafsir, and Islamic Jurisprudence. But go ask am Imam and get a load of taqiyya.

Based on the posts in these threads it's clear you have a difficult time grasping what is written in those Islamic texts. Just because an Imam points out your error, doesn't make them a liar.

I have suggested that non-Muslims learn about Islam by talking to Muslims about their religion. This is the best way. If you do this, you will get plenty of references to the sources you mentioned. In addition I suggested that the second best way is to study Islam and take some courses in Islamic studies. i even gave a link to a very good Islamic course from a Christian perspective. If someone takes a course or decides to study Islam, they will be learning from the Islamic sources you have mentioned.

I already proved to you that taqiyya was Islamic doctrine but you rejected Sahih Muslim and Ibn Kathir as legitimate Islamic sources

I didn't reject anything, I just didn't accept your interpretations. Below is the only verse in the Qur'an that even suggest that lying is acceptable, and that is only when someone is in distress:

Whoever renounces faith in God after having believed—except for someone who is compelled, while his heart rests securely in faith—but whoever willingly opens up his heart to disbelief—upon them falls wrath from God, and for them is a tremendous torment. (Qur'an 16:106)

Here is what Ibn Kathir has to say about the above verse:

This is an exception in the case of one who utters statements of unbelief and verbally agrees with the idolaters because he is forced to do so by their beatings and abuse to which he is subjected, but his heart refuses to accept what he is saying, while he is in reality at peace with his faith in Allah and His Messenger. (Tafseer Ibn Kathir 16:106)

Even lying during times a persecution should be a last resort for a Muslim as the following hadith shows:

"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

And from the hadiths on lying:

Verily, truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man may speak the truth until he is recorded with Allah as truthful. Verily, lying leads to wickedness and wickedness leads to the Hellfire. A man may tell lies until he is recorded with Allah as a liar. (Sahih al-Bukhari 5743, Sahih Muslim 2607)

"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

Aisha reported: There was no behavior more hateful to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, than dishonesty. A man would tell a lie when speaking in the presence of the Prophet and he would not be satisfied until he knew that he had repented. (Sunan al-Tirmidhī)

There you have it plain as day, lying is forbidden in Islam; and only when a Muslim faces harm and persecution and only as a last resort is lying permissible.

There are exceptions where a Muslim can tell a minor lie to keep peace and harmony among others, an example of this would be like if a wife asks her husband if a certain dress makes her look fat, and he answers "no" even when it's obvious that it does. Flat out lying and deceit is not acceptable though.

But you prefer to go to these progressive sites and trust what you read from them over actual Islamic sources that muslims read

Like I told you before, most of my knowledge of Islam came before the internet was even a thing. I didn't even own a computer until 1999. I have spent many hours in classrooms, reading Islamic texts, listening to lectures, and countless hours actually talking face to face with Muslims about their religion. And this was all before I had access to the internet.

Since you feel the sites I have visited since that time to learn about Islam are progressive, I challenge you to enroll in Dr. Philip's Islamic University Online and take the course titled "Contemporary Issues." After Taking the course, display your certificate, and then give an honest review.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Muhammad is dead, so that leaves Muslims as the authority on Islam for today.

Are you for real? No muslim has authority over Muhammad. Just like no Christian has authority of Jesus Christ. Muhammad is the prophet of Islam and according to Islamic doctrine there are no prophets after him. You are insane if you believe muslims have authority. Islam is the most authoritative religion in the world. A muslims entire life is dictated by Muhammad's Sunnah. The Hadith even teaches muslims how Muhammad wiped his butt so other muslims will know how to wipe theirs! The Hadith teaches muslims what direction Muhammad faced when he was peeing. Muslims call Islam a complete system of life and it does cover almost all aspects of life accept how to truly love. You will find no muslims who believe their words are more authoritative than Muhammad's.

The Qur'an is the book of Allah which makes up 16% of the Islamic Canon of Scripture. The Sunnah consists of the books of Muhammad which makes up 84% of the Islamic Canon of Scripture. The Sunnah is the Sirah and Hadith. The Sirah gives you the historical background of Qur'an which teaches the life (biography) of Muhammad. The Hadith consists of the traditions of Muhammad, what he said and did. The Sunnah teaches a muslim how to be a muslim.

Noble Qur'an 3:31,

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Allah says follow Muhammad's Sunnah.


Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 2, Chapter 8, hadith 15,

"Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."

Muhammad says he's the Messiah.

Sahih Muslim, Vol.5, Hadith [4749] 33 - (...),

"It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah said: "Whoever obeys me has obeyed Allah. Whoever obeys the leader I appoint has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys the leader I appoint disobeyed me."

Islamic life revolves around the prophet of Islam. Here an an example of how muslims are supposed to clean up after a wet dream:

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 5, Chapter 8, hadith no.260

"Narrated Maimuna: The Prophet took the bath of Janaba (sexual relation or wet dream). He first cleaned his private parts with his hand, and then rubbed it (the hand) on the wall (earth) and washed it. Then he performed ablution like that for the Salat (prayer), and after that the bath he washed his feet."

The hadiths are a secondary source of Islamic guidance. The Qur'an overrides the hadiths and the Qur'an is the primary source that teaches a Muslim how to be a Muslim.

Wrong. There are no guidelines in the Qur'an covering Islamic practices. It is true that the Qur'an is the most important book of Islam. But the Sunnah is still Scripture.

Noble Qur'an 3:31-32,

3:31 "Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
3:32 "Say (O Muhammad): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers."

Of course verse 32 in other translations say,

M.Pickthall: "...Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance)."
Shakir: "...Allah does not love the unbelievers."
Muhammad Sarwar: "...God does not love the unbelievers."
Arberry Koran: "...God loves not the unbelievers."
Daryabadi: "...Allah does not love the infidels."
Bewley: "...Allah does not love the unbelievers."
Dr.Salafi: "...Allah does not love the disbelievers."
Mufti Usmani: "...Allah does not love the disbelievers."

I thought I would point that out since its one of a multitude of examples proving the difference between Jesus and Muhammad.
Furthermore, the Sharia is the law of Islam. According to the Sharia any muslim who rejects Muhammad is an apostate and the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.9, Book 88, Hadith 6922,

Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali; and he burnt them. The news of this event reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

The Sharia is based on both the Qur'an and Sunnah.

I didn't reject anything, I just didn't accept your interpretations.

I didn't interpret anything. Even though I am knowledgeable on the Qur'an to interpret it, I generally let the most qualified tafsir scholars do that. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is one of the most highly acclaimed tafsir there is. Other reliable tafsirs are Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir Al-Tabari, and Tafsir Al-Jalalayn.

Like I told you before, most of my knowledge of Islam came before the internet was even a thing. I didn't even own a computer until 1999. I have spent many hours in classrooms, reading Islamic texts, listening to lectures, and countless hours actually talking face to face with Muslims about their religion. And this was all before I had access to the internet.

Well I hate to say it but your knowledge of Islam came from dubious sources. You spent many hours learning the progressive view on Islam which is all a lie. Its called the law of identity: you learn Christianity from the best sources in Christendom, namely the Holy Bible and Tradition. You study Islam from the best Islamic sources, namely the Qur'an, Sunnah (history and traditions), tafsir (exegesis of the Qur'an and Jurisprudence (the Sharia...legal ways). If you study Christianity from atheists you have learned nothing about Christianity. If you study Islam from non-Islamic sources you have learned nothing about Islam. If you want to learn any religion you have to learn it from their books and not from what others say. I studied Islam from Islamic sources which completely disagree and reject, even condemn, the liberal progressive view of Islam.

There is nothing about Islam that should appeal to liberal progressives.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Yes, I am familiar with Ibn Kathir and he is no doubt the favorite scholar of anti-Islam propagandists. This exposes your error. Your interpretation of Islam is coming primarily from a single source, a Salafi Scholar.

In other words Kathir is nobody you'll listen to about Islam. Ibn Kathir is one of the all time best tafsir scholars and the top authority on Islamic tribulation and the portents of the hours.

Salafi Islam is Mohammedan Islam. Muhammad gets the final say over Islamic doctrine. No muslim will challenge that.

Muhammad is the father of Islamic terrorism.

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.4, Book 56, Chapter 122, Hadith 2977,

(122) CHAPTER. The statement of the Prophet: I have been made victorious for a distance of one month journey with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy).
The statement of Allah:
"We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve..." (V.3:151).

2977.Narrated Abu Hurairah: Allah's Messenger said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Hurairah added: Allah's Messenger has left the world; and now you people are bringing out those treasures (i.e., the Prophet did not benefit by them)."

Noble Qur'an 3:151, The Family Of Imran (Madinah Period)

"We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers)."

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Qur'an 3:151,

"Then their Lord gives them the glad tidings of casting horror and humilation in the hearts of their enemies, because of their disbelief and polytheism, in addition it is to what is hidden from them of torment and torture in the Hereafter; as He says: {We shall cast terror into the hearts of those} It was authentically stated in the Two Sahihs that Abdullah narrated on the authority of Jabir that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said: "I was granted five things that none of the Prophets before me had been therewith granted: I was granted victory with terror (cast in the hearts of my enemies) as far as the distance of traveling for a month. The entire earth is made purified and a mosque for me (wherein any Muslim can perform his prayers). War booty was made lawful for me. I was granted the intercession, and it was that any of the Prophets was used to be sent to his to his own people; yet to all mankind, I am sent."

A global jihad

Sunan An-Nasa'i, Vol.4, Book 25, Chapter 2, Hadith 3099,

"Chapter 2. Stern Warning Against Forsaking Jihad

3099 It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet said, "Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy." (Sahih)