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The Inspiration of Scripture

What the Bible says, God says.


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Strong in Him

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But the person who heard this felt... "joy." So this is confirmation of the OSAS doctrine that one can sin and still be saved.

Not at all.
I was feeling depressed one evening, God spoke to me audibly, I felt joyful and my life changed.
You seem to be making the assumption that I was an unrepentant sinner, hating the Gospel and living in such a way as to dishonour the Lord. I wasn't; I was someone who went to church, read the Bible, wanted to serve God but had head knowledge ONLY of his love and Good News. That changed after he, personally, spoke to me.

I said nothing at all in my post about sin or continuing in sin.
 
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GingerBeer

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Except... maybe....this one?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If you don't believe that "what the bible says, God says" .....what is your Christianity based on?
My Christianity is based on knowing God and prayer and community and scripture and morals and ethics and ... isn't yours?
 
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bekkilyn

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Not my words:

1 Corinthians 1: NASB
18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”


20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

However, the problem here is that you are misusing these scripture verses to try to pretend that very obvious contradictions in the bible do not exist in order to "prove" a definition of infallibility that didn't exist until modern times, when these verses are actually referring to the truth of the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, a message that would continue to be true even if it were never put in writing.
 
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mark kennedy

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What you are doing is trying to fit this information into your current paradigm. That's fine... that is what people do. They never question whether their paradigm is wrong or has a hole or two in places... they just assume it is correct and fit everything else inside of it. I don't, sorry. I am a white, Western, Greek influenced, Christian living in the United States who knows he can't read a first century Jew from that perspective and fully grasp what he is saying. The bible was written in the Ancient Near East by Semites who wrote in a language that was more pictorial than my own, and they used certain phraseology in places that was unique to that time and place. Additionally, people like Paul used certain rules of exegesis in his writings that we are entirely unaware of but that, when pointed out, jump off the pages once recognized. Exegesis, by the way, that is DESIGNED to effect context, and again, we don't even recognize those things he is doing.

I am suggesting one read from the perspective of those who wrote it... you are suggesting we ignore anything outside our bias and only read from our own time and perspective. Your way works... to a point... and I know that well because 2 decades ago I read from your perspective. But I also learned that I had left a great deal on the table God placed there to be consumed. All that, and.... letters written to specific churches for specific purposes were not in wide spread distribution. Your claim that the first century church having those letters among their churches has no historical evidence to back it... none. After the first century? Sure... but if you think in 60 AD that copies of Paul's letters to all those cities he sent them to were copied and kept in all the churches is simply an error in thinking on your part and you have nothing to prove your point. Since it can't be proved... you can't use it, or at least, I won't. I therefore stand and will continue to stand on the notion that when the NT writer mentions the written word of God, they are referring to the canon in their time. These weren't Americans making up new rules as they go... they were Jews more entrenched in a culture you despise than you realize. And until you have the ability to see from anywhere outside your own lens... then at least on this topic, we have nothing else to share. I am not going to keep going back and forth in some weird theological urinating match because you want to prove some historically unprovable point. Come with evidence or I will see you in another thread Mark.

Blessings.
Ken
I have no idea what you are talking about here and I'm not sure you do. No one, for example, is questioning that Paul wrote Galatians, secular scholars or otherwise, that's first century authorship. What you have ignored is why we have a New Testament and what it's based on and in case you missed it, it's the Apostolic witness.

I think your problems are much deeper then basic scholarship, what that consists of will remain a mystery to me at least. I have a living witness supporting my view, because the Apostolic witness has been in the custody of Christians it's entire witness while you have rambling rationalizations.

Thanks Ken, that was fun. Let's do it again some time.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Ken Rank

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I have never claimed that God does not speak through scripture, but God did not write scripture himself and God is not limited to scripture as a communication tool.
Well said. And you point something out we all probably know but perhaps forget. Inspiration does NOT MEAN God wrote it. It means He inspired (filled them with an ability to convey the essence of His thoughts) but that doesn't mean He took control of their bodies and hands and wrote the words Himself. Thus in one place Paul can say those with him heard no voice (Acts 22:9) when in Acts 9:7 it says those with him heard the voice. Is that an error or does inspiration mean somebody can recall something as they remember and be telling the truth but perhaps miss a detail? Can it mean the stress of life, like having to make a defense for your life, means you might not recall something perfectly? I don't have any issue with the above example but many would... because inspiration to them means perfection. And that is not what it means.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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I was transformed from being a non-reader to being a reader through this book...

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I have no idea what you are talking about here and I'm not sure you do. No one, for example, is questioning that Paul wrote Galatians, secular scholars or otherwise, that's first century authorship.

The letter to Galatians WENT TO GALATIA... it was not copied 50 times in the first century and handed out as a scroll to all the churches and messianic synagogues AT THAT TIME. The letter to Galatia went to Galatia, period. It was found a little later, and ultimately copied 10,000 times and handed out... LATER. It was not in widespread distribution in the first century... not even close. Therefore, and again, TO THE FIRST CENTURY BELIEVE, "bible" (to use our modern word) did not include the letter to Galatia by Paul.

And I know you have no idea what I am saying, that is the problem. You just don't realize you are looking through a lens of your own bias and are unable to consider ANYTHING that stands opposed to what you already believe is true. Just a friendly warning... there are prophecies about things being revealed in the end times. If you can't consider something outside of what you believe today.. then when those things are revealed, and having to be revealed means you don't currently know them... you won't ever know them because you can't (won't?) look outside of your own lens.

I am not writing back to you in this thread, Mark. Like I said, there is no need for a theological urinating match. We don't agree... so what? Let it go!
 
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Ken Rank

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Inspiration does NOT MEAN God wrote it. It means He inspired (filled them with an ability to convey the essence of His thoughts) but that doesn't mean He took control of their bodies and hands and wrote the words Himself. Thus in one place Paul can say those with him heard no voice (Acts 22:9) when in Acts 9:7 it says those with him heard the voice. Is that an error or does inspiration mean somebody can recall something as they remember and be telling the truth but perhaps miss a detail? Can it mean the stress of life, like having to make a defense for your life, means you might not recall something perfectly? I don't have any issue with the above example but many would... because inspiration to them means perfection. And that is not what it means.
 
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mark kennedy

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The letter to Galatians WENT TO GALATIA... it was not copied 50 times in the first century and handed out as a scroll to all the churches and messianic synagogues AT THAT TIME. The letter to Galatia went to Galatia, period. It was found a little later, and ultimately copied 10,000 times and handed out... LATER. It was not in widespread distribution in the first century... not even close. Therefore, and again, TO THE FIRST CENTURY BELIEVE, "bible" (to use our modern word) did not include the letter to Galatia by Paul.

And I know you have no idea what I am saying, that is the problem. You just don't realize you are looking through a lens of your own bias and are unable to consider ANYTHING that stands opposed to what you already believe is true. Just a friendly warning... there are prophecies about things being revealed in the end times. If you can't consider something outside of what you believe today.. then when those things are revealed, and having to be revealed means you don't currently know them... you won't ever know them because you can't (won't?) look outside of your own lens.

I am not writing back to you in this thread, Mark. Like I said, there is no need for a theological urinating match. We don't agree... so what? Let it go!
Yea there is certainly no point in you responding since you never actually react to my points. No serious scholarship actually doubts Paul wrote Galatians. The entire New Testament was probably complete before 70 AD and the modern obsession of moving the timeline to the left is nothing more then bias, never based on something substantive. I'm a little puzzled that I took you seriously but feel free not to respond. I sure won't mind responding to your posts, it's fish in a bucket.
 
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mark kennedy

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Inspiration does NOT MEAN God wrote it. It means He inspired (filled them with an ability to convey the essence of His thoughts) but that doesn't mean He took control of their bodies and hands and wrote the words Himself. Thus in one place Paul can say those with him heard no voice (Acts 22:9) when in Acts 9:7 it says those with him heard the voice. Is that an error or does inspiration mean somebody can recall something as they remember and be telling the truth but perhaps miss a detail? Can it mean the stress of life, like having to make a defense for your life, means you might not recall something perfectly? I don't have any issue with the above example but many would... because inspiration to them means perfection. And that is not what it means.
The Apostles are in the company of the Incarnate Word for 3 years, but what they relate isn't the Word of God. Not really seeing the chain of logic here.
 
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Ken Rank

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No serious scholarship actually doubts Paul wrote Galatians.
This is childish... I just told you Paul sent his letter to Galatia. But it went to Galatia... they didn't make copies before he sent it so pretty much only those in Galatia saw it until a much later date. This isn't rocket science.

The entire New Testament was probably complete before 70 AD
You use a word like "probably" and then have no evidence that ALL of the NT books were written at that time and want to talk scholarship? :)
 
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Ken Rank

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The Apostles are in the company of the Incarnate Word for 3 years, but what they relate isn't the Word of God. Not really seeing the chain of logic here.
Again, I didn't say that... what I said was that they weren't writing thinking they were writing a bible. Therefore, when they refer to the written word of God, they are not thinking of their own letters. Paul wrote to Corinth to cover authority issues they were having.... THEY WERE HAVING... and you think he wrote it knowing it was part of the bible. :) Again, sorry... I don't agree. If you need to have the last word, have it but I am done.
 
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mark kennedy

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This is childish... I just told you Paul sent his letter to Galatia. But it went to Galatia... they didn't make copies before he sent it so pretty much only those in Galatia saw it until a much later date. This isn't rocket science.

Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians so the Galatians got it some time later? Thanks for clearing that up for me. No it's not rocket science.

You use a word like "probably" and then have no evidence that ALL of the NT books were written at that time and want to talk scholarship? :)
Yea let's start with the actual books that describe Paul writing them, when did Paul die actually?
 
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mark kennedy

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Again, I didn't say that... what I said was that they weren't writing thinking they were writing a bible. Therefore, when they refer to the written word of God, they are not thinking of their own letters. Paul wrote to Corinth to cover authority issues they were having.... THEY WERE HAVING... and you think he wrote it knowing it was part of the bible. :) Again, sorry... I don't agree. If you need to have the last word, have it but I am done.
Ok, yea I want the last word so here goes. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was gospel, the Corinthians letter to Paul wasn't so that's why we don't have a copy of their letter to him. They were commissioned by the incarnate Son of God to take his message to the world and they didn't consider their testimony to be the Word of God. Think about what your saying.
 
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Ken Rank

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Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians so the Galatians got it some time later?

I can't even say what should be said here. Are you doing this on purpose? I have been clear... Paul wrote a letter to the church in Galatia. They got it as soon as he sent it and it was delivered. Not sure how long that took back then... a week, a month? But the Christians in Jerusalem, or Rome, or Corinth... THEY DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE LETTER SENT TO GALATIA FOR SOME TIME AFTER>>> MANY YEARS (MANY DECADES)!!!!!! LOL.... unbelievable!
 
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mark kennedy

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I can't even say what should be said here. Are you doing this on purpose? I have been clear... Paul wrote a letter to the church in Galatia. They got it as soon as he sent it and it was delivered. Not sure how long that took back then... a week, a month? But the Christians in Jerusalem, or Rome, or Corinth... THEY DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE LETTER SENT TO GALATIA FOR SOME TIME AFTER>>> MANY YEARS (MANY DECADES)!!!!!! LOL.... unbelievable!
Not if they didn't make a copy. For a guy who is through with me you sure have a lot to say.
 
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Ken Rank

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Not if they didn't make a copy. For a guy who is through with me you sure have a lot to say.
I am blocking you now. There is simply no reason to risk the strife that will be caused by not doing so. I have tried to explain a historical fact in a few different ways and you are either unable or unwilling to hear anything beyond what you already believe. So... rather than risk division and animosity, I am just hitting the ignore button and moving on. I asked you to let it go and you can't. Have the last word... thankfully I won't see it.
 
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mark kennedy

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I am blocking you now. There is simply no reason to risk the strife that will be caused by not doing so. I have tried to explain a historical fact in a few different ways and you are either unable or unwilling to hear anything beyond what you already believe. So... rather than risk division and animosity, I am just hitting the ignore button and moving on. I asked you to let it go and you can't. Have the last word... thankfully I won't see it.
Yea but I'll see yours and well, thanks for the exchange.
 
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redleghunter

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Your argument included only scriptural examples.
Should I consider the Qur'an?

By pretending obvious contradictions do not exist, it's not "the cross" that would be at fault for those not in Christ choosing to remain not in Christ.
It's real easy with skeptics and atheists and "doubting Thomas types"...Start with the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If they can't bring themselves to consider God raises the dead, then they can spin on all the supposed "contradictions" and get nowhere.


And yet, there are no contradictions in the Holy Scriptures. I'd start there too.

Maybe like a bellows...God breathes on Paul and his hands start writing all of God's automated dictation even faster.
Yeah, no one defined Divine Inspiration in that fashion and if you keep up that straw man we will get nowhere.
 
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