The Inspiration of Scripture

[bekkilyn]

Luke says that Steven was stoned to death by an angry mob. Does God say that Steven was stoned to death by an angry mob?

Have you asked him?

 

[redleghunter]

Only if they do not have a fallible human being as a mediator to corrupt them.

Example?

 

[redleghunter]

Because the Bible does not say so? Because Paul had letters that were lost? Because Paul talks about traditions both "oral and written"?

What survived orally that is not written or confirmed with that which is written? A list would suffice.

 

[redleghunter]

It's amazing the attacks we get from people for knowing that the Bible is Gods word.

Especially when they are not in harmony with their own catechism.

 

[Not David]

What survived orally that is not written or confirmed with that which is written? A list would suffice.

The Liturgy?

 

[redleghunter]

The Liturgy?

What about it?

 

[JacksBratt]

For all on this thread. Those that are struggling with the idea that the bible is the living Word of God.. and that what it says is what God says..

And... to those that thoroughly understand this truth.. I want to tell you something.

After reading a bit of the argument and discussion on this thread, I came home and my father, who is 92 years old, was excited to tell me about a message that he heard on the TV about the symbols in the bible and how they tie the entire book together and prove that there is only one author of the bible.

Do you see the significance and coincidental notion of this occurance?

Anyway. I found the video of this message. It is posted below. I think both skeptics and believers can benefit from this message...

So, take 40 some odd minutes and listen to this guy... it's very interesting.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Especially when they are not in harmony with their own catechism

Just one big ball of mess. This place is nothing but leaven and a place to bring the true hatred of people's heart without any accountability. I see on here time and time again nothing but attacks on others and specefic attacks especially when it comes to someone believing what God has said. According to most here, a person cannot

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've added a poll. I am alarmed that there are so few Christians who believe in the inspiration of Scripture. I am further alarmed that so few who say that the Bible is inspired are willing to say that the Bible is the very words of God. Anyways, if you could vote, that would better show how this all lays out.

I don't agree with the premise of the poll, or your new definitions, so I opt to not participate in the poll so as to not be tricked into agreeing to something I don't actually believe.

"What the Bible says, God says" implies that when the bible quotes the devil, this also means the devil is God, so totally not into that.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yup. Paul seems to think that you should get married only if you're so horny you can't stand it any more (my paraphrase). 1 Corinthians 7:9

Maybe that's even how God actually channeled into him, but then Paul cleaned it up to make it sound less colorful when he wrote it down.

 

[Not David]

What about it?

The process is not described on Scriptures yet has been part of Christianity for a long time?

 

[ObadiahHaidabo]

What we have today are copies of copies that have passed through at least a language or two before getting to English. I can show you Hebrew words that are not translatable and thus not even in our English bibles. That doesn't mean we don't have enough to learn about and please our Father... it just means God inspired the authors to write when they did and we are looking at copies and translations after the fact.

I appreciate your point, but isn't it likely that some of the NT was written directly in koine Greek? I'm asking, not arguing.

Any translation or even particular copy is subject to error. Only the originals are infallible. But we have enough copies to have a near certainty as to what the original said, with some room for minor variations.

So yes. While there is some wiggle room on some issues - like is the number of the beast 666 or 616? - we have now what they wrote then. And what they wrote then is God's words to us.

In the famous Ankerberg debate on the KJV, Dr. Dan Wallace shared his classroom experience. He'll take a random section of ancient Greek and given it to a class of students, with instructions to copy it. But each student is given a different personality - "you're tired", "you're sloppy", "you think part of the text is offensive and should be cleaned up", "you always mix up these commonly misspelled words", etc. But when they take all the versions and begin textual criticism, they are able to recover the original text 100% of the time. And he's done this in dozens of classes over the years.

Is it possible that there are errors in even the original text. I’m not even asking is likely. I’m asking is it possible?

My faith-based answer is No.

I'd also point out that we have MANY "original texts with errors". They're just not accepted as inspired (e.g., the Gospel of Barnabas, the Gospel of Thomas, etc.) The GoT has many similarities with canonical gospels.

@Ken Rank Could you point out an example where Scripture says something that God is not saying?

Genesis 3:1? Exodus 1:22? Pretty sure that isn't God's voice coming out of either Satan's or Pharoah's mouth

I'm joking but really we're getting into semantics. What does "says" mean? Obviously, many people "say" things in the Bible and not every voice is God's. But as far as "what the Bible says" - yes, unquestionably God's words to us.

As to the mechanics of inspiration - how God used the minds of men to choose words, phrases, etc...I just don't care and we'll never know anyway

 

[A Realist]

Do you see the significance and coincidental notion of this occurance?

Nope.

 

[bekkilyn]

Example?

Open up a bible, any bible, and turn to the table of contents. There is usually a list of books written by all the many fallible human beings who wrote them.

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't agree with the premise of the poll, or your new definitions, so I opt to not participate in the poll so as to not be tricked into agreeing to something I don't actually believe.

"What the Bible says, God says" implies that when the bible quotes the devil, this also means the devil is God, so totally not into that.

Yes, I didn't participate either for similar reasons, because the accusation is just going to be that if one doesn't agree, then one doesn't believe that scripture is inspired, or that one is trashing the bible entirely, or some other such falsehood.

 

[bekkilyn]

Good to know. I will be posting an article reference the UMC in a few minutes. Truly would like your comments on the article.

Oh goody! An article referencing the UMC could be about anything from the poetry of Charles Wesley to grilled cheese sandwiches!

 

[Calvin_1985]

For all on this thread. Those that are struggling with the idea that the bible is the living Word of God.. and that what it says is what God says..

And... to those that thoroughly understand this truth.. I want to tell you something.

After reading a bit of the argument and discussion on this thread, I came home and my father, who is 92 years old, was excited to tell me about a message that he heard on the TV about the symbols in the bible and how they tie the entire book together and prove that there is only one author of the bible.

Do you see the significance and coincidental notion of this occurance?

Anyway. I found the video of this message. It is posted below. I think both skeptics and believers can benefit from this message...

So, take 40 some odd minutes and listen to this guy... it's very interesting.

Awesome message.

 

[bekkilyn]

I actually had experience in some liberal Methodist churches when I was younger, so I can understand where alot of the fear of liberalism comes from. Some liberal Methodists just don't handle saying things that are potentially scandalous with any sense of sensitivity. I remember sitting through an Easter sermon in college about how maybe the resurrection didn't really happen, but that's OK "because..." (ironically, I heard a similar sermon about Jesus and the Loaves and the Fishes at my local Methodist church over a decade ago, in fact the Methodist church was my first choice when returning to churchgoing). I have no time for that sort of religion now days, and I'm glad I'm in a church where Pastor cares about everybody's faith, even those that believe in a literal six day creation.

I was born in the U.S. south and lived here all my life, so though I've visited, I've never lived up north, but from what I've been told by people coming down here, the churches up there can be very different from the churches down here. The thing is, if you're preaching a sermon down here in the conservative south and just started out with "I don't believe the bible is inerrant..." (even though that's standard Methodist doctrine) you won't have a chance to explain because what they will instead hear is, "I don't believe the bible is true." (Two COMPLETELY different statements with different meanings.) Now in a more informal, small group discussion, there isn't typically a problem because there is discussion, but sermons are very different.

A big issue with that Easter sermon that you experienced is that to state the Resurrection might not have happened is definitely NOT standard Methodist doctrine, and ordained and licensed pastors have agreed during the candidacy process to teach correct doctrine, so not sure what was going on there!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

And how can we measure whether each and every word in the Bible contains that and only that which God intended it to contain? By using the Bible to measure the Bible?

God owns it...Jesus used Scripture against Satan during His temptation in the wilderness and rebuked Satan saying, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God."

 

[PaulCyp1]

What the Bible says, accurately and authoritatively interpreted, God says. Trying to learn what God says from the Bible without any source of authoritative interpretation results in thousands of conflicting manmade denominations who can't agree with one another on what the Bible actually says.