... is do you really understand the nature of that solemn ritual that made it an unconditional, unilateral oath by God to Abraham and his seed?
TribSigns, I'll give you one more try at understanding what happened in Genesis 15. I'm a firm believer that self-discovery for deeper understanding trumps being lectured at. There's something really important about the ritual that you are missing that makes all the difference in the world. Give it a go, and if it doesn't come to you I'll explain in a following post.
Really? No, I will EXPLAIN this post to you.
I have presented Scripture in my previous posts, but the real question is...did YOU read it with an open mind and with an eye to understand what God was truly saying about promises of an eternal land? I would hope so as there was a lot of Biblical information, instruction, and explanation in the thread. Clearly, God made
two types of promises. The promises to "
Abraham's seed" which were conditional ones that were of the law and physical temporal lands, and also promises to "
Abraham and his Seed," which were unconditional ones and were of grace and Spiritual eternal lands. These were a portrait of the two Covenants, and under only one would Israel be able to dwell in their land eternally. The Spiritual one, which is of grace. Didn't you read this in Scripture?
Galatians 4:24-26
- "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
- For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
- But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
The Old Covenant with Physical Israel gendereth or gave birth to bondage, but the New covenant with Spiritual Israel gives birth to New Life in Christ Jesus and the Spiritual land promised. Now, where is our mother can be found? The only promise that brings regeneration into an eternal inheritance for the children of Israel is the unconditional one. The conditional Promise/Covenant, which physical Israel brake, was never unconditional.
Nehemiah 9:7-7
- "Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
- And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:"
The fact that they were not eternal and were conditioned on their obedience is proved by the
fact that God DID throw them out of the land. Which would be a contradiction if God gave them the land "eternally." That is to say, if we're looking at this question rationally and according to Scripture. In fact, according to your own beliefs, until 1948 the country was inhabited by
another nationality, didn't it? So then, "how were they physically given the land eternally if they were driven out?" Humm? Eternal means
you'll always be there. But the truth is that only one land qualifies for eternal habitation and that is the
Spiritual promised land. Or was God's arm too short to prevent Israel from being cast out that what you think was His promise be kept? And how about Matthew and what Christ unambiguously declared to Israel. Did that seem in any way ambiguous to you?
Matthew 21:42-43
- "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
- Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
In what world does this sound like the Lord is reiterating they have possession of the land eternally "if" the Kingdom (
which you postulate is physical) was promised theirs forever? Humm, Doesn't make sense!
Now, here is the lesson...ANY promise that says if you are obedient you will prosper in the land, and if you are disobedient I will cast you out
is by nature not unconditional. As has been stated before, the conditional promise was to
Abraham's seed, obviousily meaning his posterity or children, the Israelites.
Genesis 12:7
- "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Again note carefully, Abraham was
not included in
THIS promise because this was a promise of the physical land and was conditional was for "thy seed", in obvious stark contrast to the Genesis 17 Promise which was unconditional and to
both Abraham and his seed Christ. True to God's promise in Genesis 12 He did give Abraham's children the land that he promised Abraham He would. All was fulfilled. Period! By contrast, the promises to
"Abraham and his Seed" was not conditional, and the fact is, Abraham never received the land that God promised
his seed, because he
died long before that time. That promise was not to Him, but to
his posterity. You ask, where did I get this idea and where does it say this promise is fulfilled, and I GAVE you the Scripture that is conclusive and unambiguous, which I will give again, so please pay attention:
Genesis 15:18
- "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"
So again PLAINLY, God made this promise of the Physical land to
Abraham's seed, and
not to Abraham. Get it? And that promise was fulfilled fully. Case closed!
Now the second part of your question is where it says it was conditional. Well, God answers that too. As it is written:
Deuteronomy 8:15-20
- "Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
- Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
- And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
- But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
- And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
- As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."
Does this sound like an unconditional to you, humm? It is a conditional promise that God made to Abraham about giving his seed the physical land, period. Did you read the part where God declares that they (the Jews) would be destroyed from it just as the other nations that were there before them
"if" they were not obedient to Him. All this is representing the old covenant of law, while the Promises to
Abraham AND HIS SEED represents the covenant of Grace because the Seed in view there is Christ, not the land of Israel. As has also already been shown by Scripture again and again but will anyone really listen?
Galatians 3:15-16
- "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
- Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
So though clearly Abraham did NOT receive the promise God made "to his seed or posterity" of the physical land, Abraham would receive the eternal promised land through Christ Jesus. Selah!
And finally, you asked where is it stated that all those promises to Abraham concerning his seed/children in the land were fulfilled, and I submit to you God's word swearing that all was fulfilled concerning it.
Joshua 21:43-45
- "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
- And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
- There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
God DID give them all He promised concerning the
physical land and they dwelt in it. So we have to ask if God's word concerning all that He swore to give Abraham's children being fulfilled is good enough? That really is the relevant question. Moreover, God makes it clear that He was not giving them the land because they were inherently good or special people, for God is no respecter of persons. They are only commended special by God's grace. And He declares He gave them the land because God was fulfilling the Promise made to Abraham
about his seed possessing the land, which was
a type. He did this as a representation that the Old Covenant would secure no one of Israel as His child eternally. The real promise of an eternal inheritance comes only in the New Covenant dispensation.
Deuteronomy 9:4-5
- "Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
- Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Why did they receive the physical land "as Promised" Abraham's seed? God tells us very plainly it was that He might perform or fulfill the oath or Promise that He made to Abraham concerning his seed receiving the land. So indeed again God declares all was fulfilled as Promised!
Now, what about Genesis 17:8-9?
Genesis 17:8-9 KJV
[8] And I will
give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger,
all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
[9] And God said unto
Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Indeed! And the Scriptures confirm that Abraham missed the physical land promises made to "his seed," but will certainly share in the
spiritual land promises made to
Abraham and His seed. For these are the "
New Covenant" Promises that can only be
fulfilled in the work of Christ and
a spiritual place to dwell.
Genesis 17:7-8
- "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy Seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
- And I will give unto thee, and to thy Seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
Abraham "NEVER" was given the physical land of Canaan, so if God be true (
and we know that He is) then this New Covenant established with both "Abraham and His Seed" concerning
the land has nothing to do with the physical land of Canaan!! In stark contrast to what was promised his seed after Abraham had passed (Genesis 15:18) and after they came out of Egypt. Unless of course we are going to speculate wildly that God is going to take Abraham back from heaven to live on this sin-cursed physical dirt on Earth called "The Middle East"? That whole idea is
disjointed and
confused. Rather Genesis 17:8 is promised as an "everlasting possession," and was therefore
a type pointing to the kingdom of heaven, which is "
the better country" than a physical plot of dirt in the middle east. As indeed explained in Hebrews 11. Didn't you read this in Scripture?
Hebrews 11:15-19
- "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
- But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
- By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
- Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
- Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."
The everlasting possession is much better country than the physical land of Canaan, it is the Spiritual land promised and confirmed in the New Covenant Christ made strong in His blood. And the land, the inheritance, The Kingdom and reign is
Spiritual and
fulfilled in Christ. This does not have to be debated because it is
told us very plainly in Scripture. It is a matter of heart, receive what God actually talked about! The unconditional promises were NOT to Abraham's seed or children, but to
one Seed, which again was always
Christ. This has already been explained many times. Consider again wisely:
Galatians 3:16-18
- "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
- And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
- For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."
If the promises you STILL think were of literal land, then the inheritance is of the law and not grace! Selah! But if the promises were of a Spiritual habitation, confirmed by the body of Christ, then it is of grace and verified the "only" way it can be an everlasting possession in the Israel of God. Not a plot of dirt that is temporal, but a Spiritual land, the only land that can be eternal.
Selah!
Now, what is your
BIBLICAL refute to this? Scripture, please.