Theory on the origin of evil

[The Righterzpen]

Why would the Creator be subject to physics?

What would have been the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed before He created anything? Maybe the answer to that would answer the question of why He's subject / subjected Himself to physics - or at least this aspect of physics.

 

[Sanoy]

Agreed on transgression...you've given the perfect explanation for it. No law...no transgression.

But how does the moral dilemma exist?
If there's a dilemma it means there's a choice.
What are the choices?
Good action
Bad action
The bad action is evil by its very description.

How is prevation a cause of evil?
I don't understand.

So good refers to Gods nature. Evil refers to the privation of God's nature. So God is the paradigm to which goodness refers to. One might say that the adversary is the paradigm to which evil refers too, however only in so much as the adversary appears to be the most in privation of God's nature. So when we do things wrong we best resemble the adversaries nature.

These two natures aren't um...whats the word, they aren't two opposite ends of a pole. God can be entirely Good, but you can only be maximally evil because certain evils exclude other evils. It's logically impossible to be all evil, for example how do you commit suicide and commit maximal evil for eternity. So it's not this Ying/Yang force as we often imagine it. It's just the privation of Gods nature best represented by the nature of the adversary.

 

[trophy33]

When you say created out of nothing...
what do you mean?

Only God can create out of nothing...

That the nature of created things is "nothingness", because they are created from nothing.

We must be born of God, to inherit the perfect nature of God. For example as Jesus is born of Father. What is only created, is submitted to limitations and errors. Even the holy angels who serve God are prone to error, as the Bible says.

 

[trophy33]

A good example of evil.

Yes. Not in a moral sense, but in, lets say, the philosophical sense. The source of "bad things" in the limitation of any creature.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So good refers to Gods nature. Evil refers to the privation of God's nature. So God is the paradigm to which goodness refers to. One might say that the adversary is the paradigm to which evil refers too, however only in so much as the adversary appears to be the most in privation of God's nature. So when we do things wrong we best resemble the adversaries nature.

These two natures aren't um...whats the word, they aren't two opposite ends of a pole. God can be entirely Good, but you can only be maximally evil because certain evils exclude other evils. It's logically impossible to be all evil, for example how to do you commit suicide and commit maximal evil for eternity. So it's not this Ying/Yang force as we often imagine it. It's just the privation of Gods nature best represented by the nature of the adversary.

I do see it as a ying/yang force.

Prevation of God's nature makes me think of the belief that evil is the absence of good...
dark is the absence of light.

Prevation of God's nature would cause NOTHING,,,why would it cause evil?

I can't think like that...I see evil as being a real force/being,,,not as being a prevation of God's nature.

Please tell me if you're thinking along the lines of evil being the absence of good...

 

[The Righterzpen]

The law is separate from the logical horns of a dilemma. A dilemma is the logical exhaustion of possibilities into two, that is irrespective of any law.

Yet without a law there is no knowledge of sin.

You raise a good point here though, if I'm understanding this correctly. The law is separate from the logical horns of the dilemma of evil and the exhaustion of the logical possibilities into two - is either evil originated with God or it didn't. If we go with option 2 - we're still left with the question of evil's origin.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That the nature of created things is "nothingness", because they are created from nothing.

We must be born of God, to inherit the perfect nature of God. For example as Jesus is born of Father. What is only created, is submitted to limitations and errors. Even angels who serve God are prone to error.

But we never inherit the perfect nature of God.
We still can sin.
We won't be perfect till we get to heaven.
Jesus was perfect.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yet without a law there is no knowledge of sin.

You raise a good point here though, if I'm understanding this correctly. The law is separate from the logical horns of the dilemma of evil and the exhaustion of the logical possibilities into two - is either evil originated with God or it didn't. If we go with option 2 - we're still left with the question of evil's origin.

Do you know about Dualism?
It states that there are two gods.
One is good and one is evil.
The bible does not support this.

 

[Sanoy]

I do see it as a ying/yang force.

Prevation of God's nature makes me think of the belief that evil is the absence of good...
dark is the absence of light.

Prevation of God's nature would cause NOTHING,,,why would it cause evil?

I can't think like that...I see evil as being a real force/being,,,not as being a prevation of God's nature.

Please tell me if you're thinking along the lines of evil being the absence of good...

By seeing them as a force you open yourself up to the Euthyprho dilemma. Essentially - Is something good, good because God commands it? -Or- Does God command it because it is good? This dilemma essentially makes "goodness" either arbitrary, or greater and external to God. The only way out is to posit a third option, which is that Goodness refers to God's nature.

 

[The Righterzpen]

So good refers to Gods nature. Evil refers to the privation of God's nature. So God is the paradigm to which goodness refers to. One might say that the adversary is the paradigm to which evil refers too, however only in so much as the adversary appears to be the most in privation of God's nature. So when we do things wrong we best resemble the adversaries nature.

These two natures aren't um...whats the word, they aren't two opposite ends of a pole. God can be entirely Good, but you can only be maximally evil because certain evils exclude other evils. It's logically impossible to be all evil, for example how do you commit suicide and commit maximal evil for eternity. So it's not this Ying/Yang force as we often imagine it. It's just the privation of Gods nature best represented by the nature of the adversary.

Agreed, evil is not equal to God. - thus we know it's not eternally existent so therefore originated with the creation in some way shape or form.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Do you know about Dualism?
It states that there are two gods.
One is good and one is evil.
The bible does not support this.

Yes, I know what dualism is. I don't believe it either.

 

[trophy33]

But we never inherit the perfect nature of God.
We still can sin.
We won't be perfect till we get to heaven.
Jesus was perfect.

Its not heaven what makes perfect. Angels are in heaven and are not perfect.

Its being born of God, what makes perfect. Our born-again nature is already perfect, only our material flesh is holding us back, till its biological death.

 

[GodsGrace101]

By seeing them as a force you open yourself up to the Euthyprho dilemma. Essentially - Is something good, good because God commands it? -Or- Does God command it because it is good? This dilemma essentially makes "goodness" either arbitrary, or greater and external to God. The only way out is to posit a third option, which is that Goodness refers to God's nature.

Yes. I've forgotten about the ED and don't remember much about it. You reminded me when you posted - when is good good..... - I can't speak to this.
God created and said everything was good (Genesis)
Then Adam ate the fruit and fell...but evil was already in the Tree. I don't know what the ED has to do with this. I'll be reading up on it later on...

 

[PaulCyp1]

Every time God created something. "He saw that it was Good". No creature He created could commit evil, since none of them had moral capacity of a knowledge of God - except angels and humans. He committed angels first, no-one knows how long before He created humans. But they had moral capacity and free will, and chose to do something contrary to the will of God, which is the definition of evil. Later, when He created humans, they likewise had moral capacity and free will, an d also chose do do things contrary to God's will.

 

[Sanoy]

Yes. I've forgotten about the ED and don't remember much about it. You reminded me when you posted - when is good good..... - I can't speak to this.
God created and said everything was good (Genesis)
Then Adam ate the fruit and fell...but evil was already in the Tree. I don't know what the ED has to do with this. I'll be reading up on it later on...

Here is a quick video on it. 2m.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Its not heaven what makes perfect. Angels are in heaven and are not perfect.

Its being born of God, what makes perfect. Our born-again nature is already perfect, only our material flesh is holding us back, till its biological death.

Oh boy Myst...
What you just said up above is gnosticism.
Did you know this?
It's a heresy...

 

[trophy33]

Oh boy Myst...
What you just said up above is gnosticism.
Did you know this?
It's a heresy...

No, everything in the post is actually biblical. Every part of the post is provable from the Bible easily. Its also coherent and logical.

 

[The Righterzpen]

That the nature of created things is "nothingness", because they are created from nothing.

We must be born of God, to inherit the perfect nature of God. For example as Jesus is born of Father. What is only created, is submitted to limitations and errors. Even the holy angels who serve God are prone to error, as the Bible says.

I agree with you in that we must be born of God to inherit incorruptibility. We will never "inherit the nature of God" though because we are and always will be created entities.

And yes, you raise a good point about the difference between the potential to corruptibility and having partaken in that corruptibility. There are angels, which are created entities subject to corruptibly who have not transgressed and therefore are not corrupted.

Categorically speaking though you can't say that created entities who do not become redeemed are "nothing" because they are subtenant.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yes. I've forgotten about the ED and don't remember much about it. You reminded me when you posted - when is good good..... - I can't speak to this.
God created and said everything was good (Genesis)
Then Adam ate the fruit and fell...but evil was already in the Tree. I don't know what the ED has to do with this. I'll be reading up on it later on...

It wasn't the "tree of good and evil" it was the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Also, yes God declared everything "good" but He never said it was perfect - as in incorruptible. Yet it did remain uncorrupted until Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

So yes, evil existed prior to the fall, yet does not answer the question of where it came from.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Here is a quick video on it. 2m.

Very good and concise.

When I say God is good ... I always type God IS GOOD.
God IS LOVE....I agree with the 3rd option.

God does not DO something good,,,He IS good.
It's His very nature.
This reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:13...God remains faithful to Himself because he cannot DENY HIMSELF,,,because HE IS faithfulness.

I see now what you mean about the Ying and Yang and the danger of separating the good and evil into forces.

But it doesn't help this conversation much, does it?
It verifies that God IS GOODNESS itself,,,
but it doesn't tell us about evil....only that He cannot be evil (which I stated way back at the beginning).