• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Here it is: The Mueller report is out.

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,603
2,521
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟557,524.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You misunderstand the argument I'm making (in a really strange and surprising way I might add).

And while the report explicitly does not explicitly state the above, I believe most reasonably people would agree that this was a specific intent, given the concerns highlighted in first through fourth. But even if not, at the very, very minimum this works as a plausible alternative to your own hypothesis, which should undercut the confidence you have in your belief that Mueller is uncertain.



Seriously... you're going to play semantic games. He can't because he chose that he wouldn't and there should be absolutely no doubt of this from the language in the first the two pages.

*Edit, just going to end the discussion after this message, at this point it doesn't really matter what Mueller thinks, the report itself is in the public domain. I just wanted to know what your reasoning was for concluding Mueller believes the evidence is ambiguous/weak, and you've provided your rationale, so thank you!

*Double edit, since I suspect I'll still be misinterpreted. Your argument is contingent on the idea that Mueller would present the evidence as strong if he believed it was such. But there's no indication of this and the language on pages 1 and 2 and many of the concerns he presents indicate outright, or (at least or if you insist on debating the issue) at the very least suggests, that he is/could be softening his language. And it's this latter point that refutes your certainty.

(Never mind that your argument itself isn't rooted in the text itself, but in a highly subjective appraisal of the content.)

You misunderstand the argument I'm making (in a really strange and surprising way I might add). Seriously... you're going to play semantic games.

It does not make sense to make this jab when I was responding to your argument, specifically your choice of words, apparently your poor choice of words. This is less about semantics and more about you apparently did not choose the best wording to unambiguously express your thoughts. I am not a gypsy well versed in the art of mind reading to discern what you meant to say, and neither am I the pythia in the temple divining your true thoughts.

I believe most reasonably people would agree

Thanks for disclosing your speculation. Any other speculative beliefs you want to share about what other people may think? A double shot of fallacious reasoning, wrapped into one phrase. You speculate as to what others believe and speculate as to the number of them. By the way, is it a popularity contest? Hmm? The number of people you speculate about is significant apparently. As if the number itself somehow showed your view was correct.

If for a moment you believe that speculating about what other people think, and the number of people you have speculated about, constitutes as a logical, lucid, rational rebuttal, you are very mistaken.

If Mueller suggests the evidence is strong or presents it as such, he's making a de facto determination that criminal conduct has occurred even if it's not explicitly stated. Yet with a goal of not rendering judgment, it seems likely he would want to avoid even this de facto determination...

And while the report explicitly does not explicitly state the above

Purely speculative. This view is nothing more than your “subjective appraisal of the content.” You are correct, your view is not explicitly stated in the Report.

Mueller is talking about prosecutorial judgment. Mueller is not discussing a judgment in some other sense or meaning outside of prosecutorial judgment. Mueller is not indicating he wanted to avoid a “de facto determination.” Mueller declined and avoided making a prosecutorial judgment. Mueller is declining to say whether, in his estimation as a prosecutor, Trump committed an offense of obstruction of justice.

Perhaps equally important is the fact that for someone seeking to avoid a "de facto determination" Mueller certainly acted rather oddly. He gave a very detailed account of the facts but did not end with a mere citing to the facts. If Mueller wanted to avoid a "de facto judgment" then he would have merely cited to the facts of each instance he construed as possibly constituting as obstruction and then merely cited to the applicable or possibly applicable obstruction of justice statues and ended his Report on obstruction. That is avoiding a "de facto judgment."

But Mueller went further, he provided an analysis, what the legal profession formally calls "legal analysis," of those facts in relation to each element of obstruction, more than one theory of obstruction to be exact, and that alone risks a "de facto judgment." Indeed, it is inescapable that an analysis of the facts to each element of obstruction of justice risks a "de facto judgment." For someone who, as you profess, to have an aversion to risking a "de facto judgment," Mueller engaging in a legal analysis is an odd, no, a contradictory approach.

This dilemma is exacerbated when, in some areas, Mueller's analysis is rather strong! For someone seeking to avoid a "de facto judgment" it does not make sense for some areas of the Report to have a very strong analysis regarding obstruction. A strong analysis inherently has the risk of a "de facto judgment." Indeed, some people in the legal field and non-legal field have concluded, after reading the Mueller report, that Mueller believed he had enough evidence, but not merely enough evidence, but a strong case of obstruction. They make that conclusion, in part, but in no small part, on the basis of Mueller's analysis itself, including the strength of his analysis in some areas. That is to be expected when A.) providing a legal analysis and B.) at times providing a strong legal analysis.

So, it is dubious Mueller wanted to avoid, as you say, a "de facto judgment." No, he specifically avoided making a prosecutorial judgment.

But even if not, at the very, very minimum this works as a plausible alternative to your own hypothesis, which should undercut the confidence you have in your belief that Mueller is uncertain.

A plausible alternative? No. It is an alternative, it may be a true alternative, I suspect it could true, but its plausibility is lacking since there is no language in the Report to indicate Mueller also wanted to avoid make a "de facto" judgment along with declining to make a "prosecutorial judgment." Its plausibility is also lacking by virtue of the fact Mueller provided a legal analysis of the facts to the elements of the obstruction statute and at times gave a strong analysis, contradictory conduct for someone seeking to avoid a "de facto judgment."

Your argument is contingent on the idea that Mueller would present the evidence as strong if he believed it was such.

Let’s assume my argument needs that assumption. (My argument absolutely does not need this assumption because my claim was not if Mueller believed the evidence was “strong” then he would have so stated.) But let’s assume your statement above is an assumption my argument makes.

There’s nothing in the Report you’ve cited to indicate Mueller did not want to do so or was precluded from doing so and this includes any notion of making a "de facto judgment." Mueller declining to make a prosecutorial judgment does not preclude him from expressing the strength of the evidence against Trump. Indeed at times in the Report, Mueller provides a strong legal analysis, something your rebuttal suggests should not exist since he is avoiding a "de facto" judgment.

In framing your rebuttal, you have equivocated declining to make a prosecutorial judgment with also declining to evaluate the evidence in such a manner as to indicate the evidence is strong. But Mueller doesn’t say that, and he explicitly says he chose not to make a prosecutorial judgment, and does not say he sought to avoid any other kind of judgment, and at times does present a strong legal analysis.

Now, my claim, my actual claim, which led to this dialogue, was that Mueller did not believe he had enough evidence. See my post # 77, see your post # 131. That is my actual claim, as opposed to your manufactured argument of "Mueller would present the evidence as strong if he believed it was such." It is a subtle distinction but an important one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
152,986
20,018
USA
✟2,107,969.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No, the reality is that there was evidence of conspiracy but not enough to meet the high bar Mueller set.

There is plenty of evidence of obstruction. Obstruction charges will need to come from congress in the form of impeachment, or after Trump leaves office if he loses in 2020.
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
25,541
21,558
✟1,784,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sen Romney on Twitter - after reading the report :


D4ih2T5XoAE7_VU.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
43,480
13,758
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟901,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Cynicism is an unreasonable ideology. In reality which infers sanity, there's plenty in the report to show he is guilty of obstruction.

The only things that have been referred to as showing that are statements from other people. Not Trump's statements, no videos, no audio recordings, no physical evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
43,480
13,758
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟901,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Only congress can impeach. But in regards to wrongdoing Mueller found plenty of wrong doing. If you'd read the report you would be properly informed.

And yet nobody has found the smoking gun they can hang their hat on to prosecute him. So, more investigations; never-ending investigations.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
50,385
18,244
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,082,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Sen Romney on Twitter - after reading the report :


D4ih2T5XoAE7_VU.jpg

says the man who supports the President only when he is receiving money or endorsements from him.
 
Upvote 0

JosephZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2017
4,921
4,847
Davao City
Visit site
✟320,767.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
And yet nobody has found the smoking gun they can hang their hat on to prosecute him. So, more investigations; never-ending investigations.
Let's pretend for a moment that Hillary had won in 2016 and this investigation was about her and her campaign instead of Trump. When the report on that investigation came out it was learned that Hillary's campaign knew that a foreign advisory was interfering in the election, but instead of reporting it to the FBI, they exploited it for their advantage and then lied about it after the fact? How would you react?

Let's say the report also contained statements like the following:

"Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations. The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the President sought to use his official power outside of usual channels. These actions ranged from efforts to remove the Special Counsel and to reverse the effect of the Attorney General 's recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contacts with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony. Viewing the acts collectively can help to illuminate their significance. For example , the President 's direction to McGahn to have the Special Counsel removed was followed almost immediately by his direction to Lewandowski to tell the Attorney General to limit the scope of the Russia investigation to prospective election-interference only-a temporal connection that suggests that both acts were taken with a related purpose with respect to the investigation."

"Many of the President's acts directed at witnesses, including discouragement of cooperation with the government and suggestions of possible future pardons, occurred in public view. While it may be more difficult to establish that public-facing acts were motivated by a corrupt intent, the President's power to influence actions, persons, and events is enhanced by his unique ability to attract attention through use of mass communications. And no principle of law excludes public acts from the scope of obstruction statutes. If the likely effect of the acts is to intimidate witnesses or alter their testimony, the justice system's integrity is equally threatened."

"The President 's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."


What if this report been about Hillary, or even President Obama, rather than Trump? Would you just brush it off and make posts like the one I just quoted and others like it in this thread discrediting the findings of the investigation?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
50,385
18,244
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,082,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What if this report been about Hillary, or even President Obama, rather than Trump? Would you just brush it off and make posts discrediting the investigation and the findings of the report?

No one is brushing it off, no one is discrediting the investigation - and who the investigation is about has nothing to do whatsoever with the simple facts that there was no collusion, nothing criminal and no obstruction.

Those facts don't change based on who it is, unless you are Jerry Nadler.
 
Upvote 0

Allandavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2016
8,056
6,929
72
Sydney
✟230,565.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
No one is brushing it off, no one is discrediting the investigation -

Except for Trump, of course...! He’s now back to calling it the Crazy Mueller Report, written by 13 Angry Democrats...!

and who the investigation is about has nothing to do whatsoever with the simple facts that there was no collusion, nothing criminal and no obstruction.

Ummm...try reading Volume 2....it is replete with evidence of Trump’s obstruction...

Those facts don't change based on who it is, unless you are Jerry Nadler.

Or a welded-on Trump fanatic...
 
Upvote 0

PeachyKeane

M.I.A.
Mar 11, 2006
5,853
3,580
✟106,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
No one is brushing it off, no one is discrediting the investigation - and who the investigation is about has nothing to do whatsoever with the simple facts that there was no collusion, nothing criminal and no obstruction.

Those facts don't change based on who it is, unless you are Jerry Nadler.

Except it's not as simple as there was no collusion and no obstruction. There was simply not enough evidence to warrant bringing charges, especially since the FBI won't indict a sitting president. That doesn't mean there wasn't any. There was certainly obstruction.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JosephZ
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
50,385
18,244
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,082,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Except it's not as simple as there was no collusion and no obstruction. There was simply not enough evidence to warrant bringing charges, especially since the FBI won't indict a sitting president. That doesn't mean there wasn't any. There was certainly obstruction.

Not enough evidence does not mean guilty, it means there wasn’t enough evidence to even bring it to trial.

That equates to innocent, not charged.


It was the left media that twisted his words. And left out the term radical.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,603
2,521
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟557,524.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not enough evidence does not mean guilty, it means there wasn’t enough evidence to even bring it to trial.

That equates to innocent, not charged.

No. Not enough evidence is not the same as innocent. You’re flirty with, once again, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance.

And, although technical, but accurate, it’s presumed innocent, and presumption of innocence.
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
25,541
21,558
✟1,784,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one is brushing it off, no one is discrediting the investigation - and who the investigation is about has nothing to do whatsoever with the simple facts that there was no collusion, nothing criminal and no obstruction.

Those facts don't change based on who it is, unless you are Jerry Nadler.

You are brushing it off by continuing to repeat the lie that there was "no collusion" and "no obstruction".
 
Upvote 0

GoldenBoy89

We're Still Here
Sep 25, 2012
26,831
29,647
LA
✟662,906.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
.

Evidence proves guilt. That is how a court of law works. Where there is no evidence, there is no guilt.

The President is not accused of a crime, except from the Democrats and media, there is no substantive evidence of a crime even though there was a 30,000,000 two year investigation where a Special Prosecutor with a team of 19 trained lawyers, 40 FBI agents reviewing over 1,000,000 documents, hundreds of witnesses, 2,800 subpoenas.

And could not find enough evidence to show collusion, obstruction or any crime.

And people still say he is guilty.
Guilty of what?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Even IF Donald Trump did talk to the Russians, it's not illegal to talk to the Russians.
It depends, I suppose, on what he talked to them about. But an action of the President doesn't have to be illegal to be impeachable.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
50,385
18,244
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,082,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What are people saying he is guilty of?

www.cnn.com
www.msnbc.com
www.nbc.com
www.nytimes.com
www.abc.com
www.cbs.com

Then look up statements since the Mueller report came out from:

Jerry Nadler
Nancy Pelosi
Elizabeth Warren
A.O.C
Adam Schiff

Or you can view:

A Case for Impeachment

When Trump won, Putin deployed his oligarchs

Find out how many are actually saying Trump is innocent because there was no substantive evidence of collusion, obstruction or anything criminal.

And then compare to how many are still in the narrative that the investigation must go on and in most cases expand.

Start there and then we can talk.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: rjs330
Upvote 0