Faith plus works

[Ronald]

Brother, you are one mixed up dude.
Make up your mind whether or not you ARE a calvinist because you can't have it both ways.

I have my mind in order. I don't agree with TULIP.
However, predestination is in scripture. Let me give a lesson:


Predestination and Election


Verses that support Predestination and Election:

Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Eph. 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

1Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace by multiplied.”

I think before we go on, we should define these words predestination and election.

Definition of Predestination: 1. The act of predestining; destiny; fate. 2. The foreordination of all things by God, including the salvation or damnation of men. * Out of 59 Bible translations, the word predestined in Romans 8:29 is used 32 times. Other translations use foreordained, determined , decided or chose beforehand. *Note: This speaks strictly of our salvation , the actions and events that lead up to that, but NOT the color of pants or choice of food we will eat. God ordained events are the key significant events, a specific job, place you move to, person you marry, even accidents, etc., would be included in and influence the direction of your life and so it is and has always been known by God.

Since God knows the end and we have prophecy that describes in detail events that will happen, and so they are fact predestined to happen, prophecy simply states what is predestined to happen. If God did not predetermine, pre-ordain things to take place exactly how they will, then prophecy could not be written.

Definition of Election: the predestination of individuals for salvation.

One must realize that if certain events, people’s salvation, are to take place exactly how God intended and planned for them, the process leading up to the time this takes place is precisely ordered. That means man cannot mess it up. Again, God factors into His overall plan our blunders, errors, weak faith and with a few workers, His plan is carried on schedule.

The entire first half of your post makes no sense...I stopped reading at that point.

Some things are just confusing. Don't worry, a lot of people are confused about this doctrine.

Is God dumb?
He predestined everything but He still figures "ah, let me invite everyone --- just to fool them, but I already know who will be saved".

His Grace is experienced by all, the rain falls on the wicked and sometimes they can smell the roses too.

As for Calvin, he tried to put man's and God's nature in a box, an acronym that is flawed. I could argue each one of them except perseverance of the saints - but please don't bother testing me.
Man is not qualified to speak of God's ways in such a superficial fashion as to dress them up in a nice neat package. Listen, unless you are omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, which Calvin was not, nor is anyone, it is not possible to create absolutes. TULIP is not an absolute, definitive construct, which is why the majority of Christianity do not receive it in harmony.

Hey sister, I'm Italian too, buon giorno. Ah Tuscany, it has been my dream to go to Italy.

 

[Ronald]

I agree with your outlook concerning predestination but Hebrews 6:4-6 says that people who have received the Holy Spirit can still fall from grace. Furthermore Ephesians 5 Paul warns children of God of living a sinful lifestyle that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Hebrews is known to be directed towards the Jews. It's based on the teaching of the Old Testament and starts with presenting Jesus as the Messiah, Who is greater than the angels, greater than Moses, then "A Sabbath Rest" also directed to the Hebrews, that He is our High Priest, like Melchizedek and the falling away part is right in the middle . They were the branches and some were cut off so that we could be grafted in. You can look at that scripture and understand it is a message to the Hebrews, whose prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit. And so for them, having received that knowledge of God, it is impossible for them (who were enlightened), who lived it, tasted it, if they fall away, could be brought back to repentance - which would be crucifying Jesus again. They crucified him already.

 

[Ronald]

. duplicate

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hebrews is known to be directed towards the Jews. It's based on the teaching of the Old Testament and starts with presenting Jesus as the Messiah, Who is greater than the angels, greater than Moses, then "A Sabbath Rest" also directed to the Hebrews, that He is our High Priest, like Melchizedek and the falling away part is right in the middle . They were the branches and some were cut off so that we could be grafted in. You can look at that scripture and understand it is a message to the Hebrews, whose prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit. And so for them, having received that knowledge of God, it is impossible for them (who were enlightened), who lived it, tasted it, if they fall away, could be brought back to repentance - which would be crucifying Jesus again. They crucified him already.

My point was that just because someone has received the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they cannot fall from grace. The Holy Spirit guides us like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we might wake to find ourself way off coarse or maybe even shipwrecked.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have my mind in order. I don't agree with TULIP.
However, predestination is in scripture. Let me give a lesson:

If you believe in predestination and election, you're calvinist, whether you care to admit it or not.

I know Catholic doctrine....but I always state that I'm not catholic.

What YOU are doing is stating calvinistic ideas and then saying you AGREE with them...

Let's take your analysis one by one...
I'm not here to give you a lesson...you'll have to figure everything out on your own....And if YOU are going to be giving lessons,,,you have a lot of work ahead of you re the following....

Predestination and Election


Verses that support Predestination and Election:

Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Eph. 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

1Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace by multiplied.”

I think before we go on, we should define these words predestination and election.

Definition of Predestination: 1. The act of predestining; destiny; fate. 2. The foreordination of all things by God, including the salvation or damnation of men. * Out of 59 Bible translations, the word predestined in Romans 8:29 is used 32 times. Other translations use foreordained, determined , decided or chose beforehand. *Note: This speaks strictly of our salvation , the actions and events that lead up to that, but NOT the color of pants or choice of food we will eat. God ordained events are the key significant events, a specific job, place you move to, person you marry, even accidents, etc., would be included in and influence the direction of your life and so it is and has always been known by God.

Wow. A true calvinist and you don't even know it.
We all know what predestine means,,,the meaning does not change for biblical reasons. Because you see the word does not mean what you think. You have to always use context when reading the bible.
You have to look at it as a whole thought,,,not pluck words out here and there.

Romans 8:29
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God did not predestine anyone to salvation.
He FOREKNEW who would be saved. He foreknew who would choose God for salvation.

God PREDESTINED HOW they would be saved:
By becoming conformed to the image of His Son.

And these who are predestined, He called (invited)
And these He justified, and they will be glorified.



Ephesians 1:5
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Please note that it's the same as Romans 8.
God predestined us to ADOPTION AS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

The predestinating if for HOW,,, not WHO.


1Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace by multiplied.”

Again,,,we are elect (invited) according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God .....

and HOW:
Through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the blood of Jesus Christ.

Again: HOW not WHO.

Since God knows the end and we have prophecy that describes in detail events that will happen, and so they are fact predestined to happen, prophecy simply states what is predestined to happen. If God did not predetermine, pre-ordain things to take place exactly how they will, then prophecy could not be written.

God surely has predestined some things to happen and has chosen who would cause those things to happen... we could discuss this, for instance - Mary, to be the Mother of Jesus.

But, what you have written above, truthfully, makes no sense to me, unless I've misunderstood.
God KNOWS the future...HE DOESN'T WRITE it.
What you're saying is that God predestined everything that happened both in the O.T. and the N.T. This is not correct, and if we continue speaking you'll see why it makes no sense.

Definition of Election

: the predestination of individuals for salvation.

One must realize that if certain events, people’s salvation, are to take place exactly how God intended and planned for them, the process leading up to the time this takes place is precisely ordered. That means man cannot mess it up. Again, God factors into His overall plan our blunders, errors, weak faith and with a few workers, His plan is carried on schedule.

Again,,, your statement makes no logical sense.
God has a plan. It's a BIG PLAN...not a micro- plan.
Does He decide what you had for breakfast this morning?
Does HE decide whether or not YOU are saved?

Question: Do you believe man has free will?
Which would be the free will to make moral choices...or does God preordain everything for man?

Some things are just confusing. Don't worry, a lot of people are confused about this doctrine.

His Grace is experienced by all, the rain falls on the wicked and sometimes they can smell the roses too.

I'm not worried about being confused.
I'm hoping YOU come out of the confusion you've posted so far.

As for Calvin, he tried to put man's and God's nature in a box, an acronym that is flawed. I could argue each one of them except perseverance of the saints - but please don't bother testing me. I would say it's more like NOT Totally depraved, Conditional Election, Unlimited Atonement, Resistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints.
Man is not qualified to speak of God's ways in such a superficial fashion as to dress them up in a nice neat package. Listen, unless you are omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, which Calvin was not, nor is anyone, it is not possible to create absolutes. TULIP is not an absolute, definitive construct, which is why the majority of Christianity do not receive it in harmony.

And is it any wonder Christianity does not accept Calvin's ideas. THEY'RE not biblical. The early church also did not believe in predestination.
You really need to think this all through again.
Please answer re Free Will.

Hey sister, I'm Italian too, buon giorno. Ah Tuscany, it has been my dream to go to Italy.

What are you waiting for? Just do it.
(how do you know I live in Tuscany?)

A presto...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hebrews is known to be directed towards the Jews. It's based on the teaching of the Old Testament and starts with presenting Jesus as the Messiah, Who is greater than the angels, greater than Moses, then "A Sabbath Rest" also directed to the Hebrews, that He is our High Priest, like Melchizedek and the falling away part is right in the middle . They were the branches and some were cut off so that we could be grafted in. You can look at that scripture and understand it is a message to the Hebrews, whose prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit. And so for them, having received that knowledge of God, it is impossible for them (who were enlightened), who lived it, tasted it, if they fall away, could be brought back to repentance - which would be crucifying Jesus again. They crucified him already.

Good post.
It makes SENSE!

Now, have you heard that Romans 9 to 11 are specifically for the Jews and explains how the Hebrews were picked for God to reveal Himself?
This would clear up a lot of your thinking...
It would take a little studying...
If you already know this, I apologize, if not, you could start here:

https://www.imb.org/topic/deepen-discipleship/romans/romans-9-11/

 Romans 9 - Expository Comments On Romans 9-11

The Jews, the Future, and God (Romans 9-11) | Preaching Source

And I found this on YouTube...it's explained well (at least the part I listened to --the beginning)

Romans 9 to 11 is about corporate salvation (Israel)
and not individual salvation.

 

[Concord1968]

Hey sister, I'm Italian too, buon giorno. Ah Tuscany, it has been my dream to go to Italy.

Tuscany has the best wines! And Emilia-Romagna has the best food

 

[Concord1968]

If you believe in predestination and election, you're calvinist, whether you care to admit it or not.

I'm pretty anti-Calvinist, but what you wrote is just wrong. Even Arminius (ie Arminianism) believed in Predestination and election. So did Thomas Aquinas on the Catholic side (read the Summa), so did Molina (ie Molinism) on the Catholic side. Are they Calvinists? No they are not (although the Catholic Aquinas is pretty close).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Tuscany has the best wines! And Emilia-Romagna has the best food

How did you EAT in Emilia Romagna
and DRINK in Tuscany!!
LOL

The food here isn't bad either...
But you must like prosciutto and formaggio...

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm pretty anti-Calvinist, but what you wrote is just wrong. Even Arminius (ie Arminianism) believed in Predestination and election. So did Thomas Aquinas on the Catholic side (read the Summa), so did Molina (ie Molinism) on the Catholic side. Are they Calvinists? No they are not (although the Catholic Aquinas is pretty close).

What you posted above is one of the big problems I have with calvinism...They love to post PEOPLE...
I love to post SCRIPTURE.

Nothing of what I posted is wrong...I only post correct statements. Arminius also believed in total depravity..does that make it right?

Aquinas came after Augustine...the two big brains of the Catholic church. I like Aquinas better because at least he stayed steady in what he believed.

Augustine changed his mind so much about such important concepts that I've come to pay no attention at all as to what he wrote.

Besides the fact that Augustine is responsible for the Catholic belief that infants must be baptized asas or they would end up in hell because of imputation of Original Sin. The ECFs believed in O.S. but in its effects on mankind.

And the ECFs, pre Nicea, 325 AD, did NOT believe in predestination. You could check out their writings...
They, as the bible states, believed that we are predestined to be saved by the blood of Jesus...Not Who can be saved...but how.

Why do Calvinists love Augustine so much?
Because it's he that understood predestination the way calvinists do....God deciding WHO will be saved.
This goes against every concept in the N.T.

I don't know if the following could be of help, I don't have time to read it all....I think I can assume the Catholic church knows about their Augustine and Early Fathers....

Oops:

Fr. William Most

 

[Ronald]

If you believe in predestination and election, you're calvinist, whether you care to admit it or not.

Wrong, it literally states this: and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
TULIP is presented as an addendum or additional scriptural commentary from above, "Thus says the LORD, Calvin, my son, will summarize the nature of man, his condition, God's grace and atonement in this flowery presentation."
I don't accept this commentary. There are many commentaries by many theologians, some I accept, usually partially, others I'm not interested in. We have the Bible, we really don't need a flawed teacher to throw us off. And it is kind of a cold theology.
Calvinism is high-minded and attempts to understand God's counsel, His ways, His mind ... The Bible is sufficient.
For instance, man is dead in sin, born dead. That's what the Bible says so why concoct a phrase like "totally depraved"? We aren't totally depraved, because we have God, His grace (which they seem to differentiate between common grace and spiritual), His love, knowledge of Him, etc. In Romans 1:20 it clearly says, man since creation, knew God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, it was seen and understood from what has been made, so that man is without excuse. That doesn't sound depraved. Also, we were made in God's image having a soul (mind, emotions, volition), a spiritual nature, creative abilities, talents given to us by God as well. But this idea of total depravity completely ignores the fact that in the present, God's principles have permeated throughout the world, His blessings, His knowledge - even though men blind, they experience His love and grace. Depraved. If we were depraved, the words "man is without excuse" could not be written.
We have responsibility. Salvation is a gift, but we need to repent, receive the gift and cooperate with God in a relationship. We need to nourish our spirits with the WORD, so that it will grow. I can go on with the rest of them but you get the point - I'm not a Calvinist.

God did not predestine anyone to salvation.
He FOREKNEW who would be saved. He foreknew who would choose God for salvation.

He predestined the elect according to His foreknowledge. We don't know or can fully conceive that. He operates outside our time domain, sees the future, has omniscience - which is why it is high- minded for Calvin to presume he understands the ways in which He decides in a superficial an acronym.

God PREDESTINED HOW they would be saved:
By becoming conformed to the image of His Son.

How but not who you say? " ...and these whom He predestined ..."
How, who, where, when, why and how many.
His election is conditional, in His eternal realm He set's up the conditions which are the physical, mental, emotional, environmental states that exist, the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the divine calling of the individual - He prepares the hearts/soil of men - these are all conditions. Conditions in pride and humility. A person who is prideful must eventually be put through many life lessons to learn humility, break his prideful condition. But we must respond, we can resist and do over and over again, and when we finally are ready to open the door and turn to God (repent).

And these who are predestined, He called (invited)
And these He justified, and they will be glorified.

Amen

Again,,,we are elect (invited) according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God .....

Through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the blood of Jesus Christ.

Again: HOW not WHO.

But, what you have written above, truthfully, makes no sense to me, unless I've misunderstood.
God KNOWS the future...HE DOESN'T WRITE it.
What you're saying is that God predestined everything that happened both in the O.T. and the N.T. This is not correct, and if we continue speaking you'll see why it makes no sense.

HUH? THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WRITTEN WORD.
Prophecy is an example of predestination. Nations that grew, warred against other nations, slavery, peace, judgments, kings, events that happened in detail were written about hundreds years before they occurred. God saw them outside of our time domain. It can't compute completely because we see things happening from moment to moment. He sees everyone's destiny, every nations and therefore all events are seen surrounding, this is omniscience -- hard for us to understand.

Again,,, your statement makes no logical sense.
God has a plan. It's a BIG PLAN...not a micro- plan.
Does He decide what you had for breakfast this morning?
Does HE decide whether or not YOU are saved?

Question: Do you believe man has free will?
Which would be the free will to make moral choices...or does God preordain everything for man?

If you read all that I wrote, I said the significant things that pertain to our salvation are ordained. Minor things like clothes you where, food you eat that won't effect the plan are open. But if you decided to eat at a restaurant that happened to be bombed that day and God had other plans for you, you would be prevented from going there somehow, an interruption, a flat tire, a minor car accident.
Free will is no so free. We are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. If free will existed, there would no judgment, no penalty for sins. We would be free of that when we died and could just float to our own spiritual bliss, create our own reality - whatever. Free will means, you wouldn't have to pay for the consequences of your actions every day. Free will would imply no authority over you, God or Satan. It's like saying your infant is free to do whatever they choose with no consequences, no punishment. But hey, you are free to have your choice of food or clothing - but even that has consequences. Wear a sexy mini-skirt and you might get stalked.
Plus there are laws, we are not free to do anything in society. Once we are saved, there is true freedom of the consequences and penalties of sin. Being set free from bondage, to willfully obey and follow the LORD.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Wrong, it literally states this: and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
TULIP is presented as an addendum or additional scriptural commentary from above, "Thus says the LORD, Calvin, my son, will summarize the nature of man, his condition, God's grace and atonement in this flowery presentation."
I don't accept this commentary. There are many commentaries by many theologians, some I accept, usually partially, others I'm not interested in. We have the Bible, we really don't need a flawed teacher to throw us off. And it is kind of a cold theology.
Calvinism is high-minded and attempts to understand God's counsel, His ways, His mind ... The Bible is sufficient.

Yes, God did predestine...but not WHO...
Those He predestined in your reply above, are those He FOREKNEW and so God predestined them to be saved IN CHRIST. I agree with you totally that the bible is sufficient...sometimes, though, a biblical scholar could come in handy.

I'd like to show you that if you accept one of the TULIP concepts...you must accept all...but in a separate post, this one is too long.

For instance, man is dead in sin, born dead. That's what the Bible says so why concoct a phrase like "totally depraved"? We aren't totally depraved, because we have God, His grace (which they seem to differentiate between common grace and spiritual), His love, knowledge of Him, etc. In Romans 1:20 it clearly says, man since creation, knew God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, it was seen and understood from what has been made, so that man is without excuse. That doesn't sound depraved. Also, we were made in God's image having a soul (mind, emotions, volition), a spiritual nature, creative abilities, talents given to us by God as well. But this idea of total depravity completely ignores the fact that in the present, God's principles have permeated throughout the world, His blessings, His knowledge - even though men blind, they experience His love and grace. Depraved. If we were depraved, the words "man is without excuse" could not be written.

A big amen to that!
I totally agree.
We are born with the sin nature...but we are not totally depraved.

We have responsibility. Salvation is a gift, but we need to repent, receive the gift and cooperate with God in a relationship. We need to nourish our spirits with the WORD, so that it will grow. I can go on with the rest of them but you get the point - I'm not a Calvinist.

I totally agree with the above.
This is called sanctification...a cooperative work with God. OR, we could say you believe in synergism..

He predestined the elect according to His foreknowledge. We don't know or can fully conceive that. He operates outside our time domain, sees the future, has omniscience - which is why it is high- minded for Calvin to presume he understands the ways in which He decides in a superficial an acronym.

OK. NOW you explained predestination correctly. There's a fine line when we speak of predestination and election....You said above that God predestined the elect ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE.
This is right and in keeping with mainline Christianity.

How but not who you say? " ...and these whom He predestined ..."
How, who, where, when, why and how many.
His election is conditional, in His eternal realm He set's up the conditions which are the physical, mental, emotional, environmental states that exist, the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the divine calling of the individual - He prepares the hearts/soil of men - these are all conditions. Conditions in pride and humility. A person who is prideful must eventually be put through many life lessons to learn humility, break his prideful condition. But we must respond, we can resist and do over and over again, and when we finally are ready to open the door and turn to God (repent).

Same problem....God predestined how MEN would be saved...but not on an individual basis,,on a corporate basis...WHO WOULD CHOOSE to belong to His CHURCH would be saved...like you said: We need to accept His conditions.
It feels like one moment you're saying right and then the next it's mixed up again....

HUH? THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WRITTEN WORD.

Of course. I meant that God didn't write history, or the future, or who would get saved...Of course the bible is God's Word.

Prophecy is an example of predestination. Nations that grew, warred against other nations, slavery, peace, judgments, kings, events that happened in detail were written about hundreds years before they occurred. God saw them outside of our time domain. It can't compute completely because we see things happening from moment to moment. He sees everyone's destiny, every nations and therefore all events are seen surrounding, this is omniscience -- hard for us to understand.

I believe most Christians understand what you've stated above.

If you read all that I wrote, I said the significant things that pertain to our salvation are ordained. Minor things like clothes you where, food you eat that won't effect the plan are open. But if you decided to eat at a restaurant that happened to be bombed that day and God had other plans for you, you would be prevented from going there somehow, an interruption, a flat tire, a minor car accident.

Hmmm. This is nice to think of when one is a new Christian. But at some point one has to believe that God does not plan every little thing that will happen to us.

First of all because it would make God responsible for the evil that happens to us: sickness, etc.

Second of all because it would require God to be performing miracles all day long...God does not intervene in nature that much. He set up laws for nature and they cannot be broken all the time.

Free will is no so free. We are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. If free will existed, there would no judgment, no penalty for sins. We would be free of that when we died and could just float to our own spiritual bliss, create our own reality - whatever. Free will means, you wouldn't have to pay for the consequences of your actions every day. Free will would imply no authority over you, God or Satan. It's like saying your infant is free to do whatever they choose with no consequences, no punishment. But hey, you are free to have your choice of food or clothing - but even that has consequences. Wear a sexy mini-skirt and you might get stalked.

Free will means (in theology) that we have the ability to choose between two moral choices. We could choose to do good or to do bad/evil. We cold choose to serve God or we could choose to serve satan. Only when we serve God is our spirit truly set free.

Plus there are laws, we are not free to do anything in society. Once we are saved, there is true freedom of the consequences and penalties of sin. Being set free from bondage, to willfully obey and follow the LORD.

Agreed.

 

[MDC]

Wrong, it literally states this: and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
TULIP is presented as an addendum or additional scriptural commentary from above, "Thus says the LORD, Calvin, my son, will summarize the nature of man, his condition, God's grace and atonement in this flowery presentation."
I don't accept this commentary. There are many commentaries by many theologians, some I accept, usually partially, others I'm not interested in. We have the Bible, we really don't need a flawed teacher to throw us off. And it is kind of a cold theology.
Calvinism is high-minded and attempts to understand God's counsel, His ways, His mind ... The Bible is sufficient.
For instance, man is dead in sin, born dead. That's what the Bible says so why concoct a phrase like "totally depraved"? We aren't totally depraved, because we have God, His grace (which they seem to differentiate between common grace and spiritual), His love, knowledge of Him, etc. In Romans 1:20 it clearly says, man since creation, knew God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, it was seen and understood from what has been made, so that man is without excuse. That doesn't sound depraved. Also, we were made in God's image having a soul (mind, emotions, volition), a spiritual nature, creative abilities, talents given to us by God as well. But this idea of total depravity completely ignores the fact that in the present, God's principles have permeated throughout the world, His blessings, His knowledge - even though men blind, they experience His love and grace. Depraved. If we were depraved, the words "man is without excuse" could not be written.
We have responsibility. Salvation is a gift, but we need to repent, receive the gift and cooperate with God in a relationship. We need to nourish our spirits with the WORD, so that it will grow. I can go on with the rest of them but you get the point - I'm not a Calvinist.




He predestined the elect according to His foreknowledge. We don't know or can fully conceive that. He operates outside our time domain, sees the future, has omniscience - which is why it is high- minded for Calvin to presume he understands the ways in which He decides in a superficial an acronym.



How but not who you say? " ...and these whom He predestined ..."
How, who, where, when, why and how many.
His election is conditional, in His eternal realm He set's up the conditions which are the physical, mental, emotional, environmental states that exist, the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the divine calling of the individual - He prepares the hearts/soil of men - these are all conditions. Conditions in pride and humility. A person who is prideful must eventually be put through many life lessons to learn humility, break his prideful condition. But we must respond, we can resist and do over and over again, and when we finally are ready to open the door and turn to God (repent).




Amen






HUH? THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WRITTEN WORD.
Prophecy is an example of predestination. Nations that grew, warred against other nations, slavery, peace, judgments, kings, events that happened in detail were written about hundreds years before they occurred. God saw them outside of our time domain. It can't compute completely because we see things happening from moment to moment. He sees everyone's destiny, every nations and therefore all events are seen surrounding, this is omniscience -- hard for us to understand.


If you read all that I wrote, I said the significant things that pertain to our salvation are ordained. Minor things like clothes you where, food you eat that won't effect the plan are open. But if you decided to eat at a restaurant that happened to be bombed that day and God had other plans for you, you would be prevented from going there somehow, an interruption, a flat tire, a minor car accident.
Free will is no so free. We are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. If free will existed, there would no judgment, no penalty for sins. We would be free of that when we died and could just float to our own spiritual bliss, create our own reality - whatever. Free will means, you wouldn't have to pay for the consequences of your actions every day. Free will would imply no authority over you, God or Satan. It's like saying your infant is free to do whatever they choose with no consequences, no punishment. But hey, you are free to have your choice of food or clothing - but even that has consequences. Wear a sexy mini-skirt and you might get stalked.
Plus there are laws, we are not free to do anything in society. Once we are saved, there is true freedom of the consequences and penalties of sin. Being set free from bondage, to willfully obey and follow the LORD.

Tulip was formalized to combat the heresy of Arminianism. I’m convinced that no believer would deny any of tulip

 

[MDC]

Yes, God did predestine...but not WHO...
Those He predestined in your reply above, are those He FOREKNEW and so God predestined them to be saved IN CHRIST. I agree with you totally that the bible is sufficient...sometimes, though, a biblical scholar could come in handy.

I'd like to show you that if you accept one of the TULIP concepts...you must accept all...but in a separate post, this one is too long.


A big amen to that!
I totally agree.
We are born with the sin nature...but we are not totally depraved.


I totally agree with the above.
This is called sanctification...a cooperative work with God. OR, we could say you believe in synergism..



OK. NOW you explained predestination correctly. There's a fine line when we speak of predestination and election....You said above that God predestined the elect ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE.
This is right and in keeping with mainline Christianity.


Same problem....God predestined how MEN would be saved...but not on an individual basis,,on a corporate basis...WHO WOULD CHOOSE to belong to His CHURCH would be saved...like you said: We need to accept His conditions.
It feels like one moment you're saying right and then the next it's mixed up again....



Of course. I meant that God didn't write history, or the future, or who would get saved...Of course the bible is God's Word.


I believe most Christians understand what you've stated above.



Hmmm. This is nice to think of when one is a new Christian. But at some point one has to believe that God does not plan every little thing that will happen to us.

First of all because it would make God responsible for the evil that happens to us: sickness, etc.

Second of all because it would require God to be performing miracles all day long...God does not intervene in nature that much. He set up laws for nature and they cannot be broken all the time.



Free will means (in theology) that we have the ability to choose between two moral choices. We could choose to do good or to do bad/evil. We cold choose to serve God or we could choose to serve satan. Only when we serve God is our spirit truly set free.


Agreed.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
You should mention your theological teacher Pelagius. This man centered theology of cooperative salvation is nothing more than pelagianism

 

[BNR32FAN]

What you posted above is one of the big problems I have with calvinism...They love to post PEOPLE...
I love to post SCRIPTURE.

Nothing of what I posted is wrong...I only post correct statements. Arminius also believed in total depravity..does that make it right?

Aquinas came after Augustine...the two big brains of the Catholic church. I like Aquinas better because at least he stayed steady in what he believed.

Augustine changed his mind so much about such important concepts that I've come to pay no attention at all as to what he wrote.

Besides the fact that Augustine is responsible for the Catholic belief that infants must be baptized asas or they would end up in hell because of imputation of Original Sin. The ECFs believed in O.S. but in its effects on mankind.

And the ECFs, pre Nicea, 325 AD, did NOT believe in predestination. You could check out their writings...
They, as the bible states, believed that we are predestined to be saved by the blood of Jesus...Not Who can be saved...but how.

Why do Calvinists love Augustine so much?
Because it's he that understood predestination the way calvinists do....God deciding WHO will be saved.
This goes against every concept in the N.T.

I don't know if the following could be of help, I don't have time to read it all....I think I can assume the Catholic church knows about their Augustine and Early Fathers....

Oops:

Fr. William Most

I agree if the ECF taught predestination they would’ve also had to teach eternal security which it’s very clear they didn’t. I also agree with your comment concerning Augustine. He openly admitted that his writings were not without error. People often try to use his writings as evidence of what the early church taught instead of looking at the actual doctrines of the early church. ECF as individuals did not dictate church doctrine only the ecumenical council determined doctrines.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I agree if the ECF taught predestination they would’ve also had to teach eternal security which it’s very clear they didn’t. I also agree with your comment concerning Augustine. He openly admitted that his writings were not without error. People often try to use his writings as evidence of what the early church taught instead of looking at the actual doctrines of the early church. ECF as individuals did not dictate church doctrine only the ecumenical council determined doctrines.

Thanks for posting this B,,,
Sometmes persons ask for support of what I post,,,it's like asking for support that water is wet. It's HISTORY!
Augustine was a manchaen, which was under the umbrella of gnosticism, before he became Catholic...I don't trust anything he said.
And anyway, he was not an early church father.
Most would understand that to mean up to 325 AD for the Nicean Creed..but some accept the term to mean up to about 500 or so. I agree with pre-325.
Things changed after that...

When augustine was young he said he had figured out the evil problem. HA! By the time of his elder years, he said it was impossible to know...
(and on other concepts too)...

Glad there are some that know their history...

 

[GodsGrace101]

[/QUOTE]
You should mention your theological teacher Pelagius. This man centered theology of cooperative salvation is nothing more than pelagianism[/QUOTE]
I don't know who Pelagius is.

I read the bible and quote the bible.
Calvinists love men and read their men.

I said prior to this that this is something I don't care for in calvinism.

Who cares who thought what?
Read the bible and get your ideas from there, without prejudice, of course...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Tulip was formalized to combat the heresy of Arminianism. I’m convinced that no believer would deny any of tulip

• 

 

[MDC]

You should mention your theological teacher Pelagius. This man centered theology of cooperative salvation is nothing more than pelagianism[/QUOTE]
I don't know who Pelagius is.

I read the bible and quote the bible.
Calvinists love men and read their men.

I said prior to this that this is something I don't care for in calvinism.

Who cares who thought what?
Read the bible and get your ideas from there, without prejudice, of course...[/QUOTE]
Oh sure you don’t. It’s easy for you to trash Augustine and what he defended according to scripture but yet be naive about the man who brought great division during his time. Pelagius said he got what he got from scripture too! So what. As far as I can see the same battle Augustine was in with Pelagius is the same battle that still plagues us today. You are a pelagian and the mouthpiece for it whether you know it or not

 

[GodsGrace101]

You should mention your theological teacher Pelagius. This man centered theology of cooperative salvation is nothing more than pelagianism
I don't know who Pelagius is.

I read the bible and quote the bible.
Calvinists love men and read their men.

I said prior to this that this is something I don't care for in calvinism.

Who cares who thought what?
Read the bible and get your ideas from there, without prejudice, of course...
Oh sure you don’t. It’s easy for you to trash Augustine and what he defended according to scripture but yet be naive about the man who brought great division during his time. Pelagius said he got what he got from scripture too! So what. As far as I can see the same battle Augustine was in with Pelagius is the same battle that still plagues us today. You are a pelagian and the mouthpiece for it whether you know it or not

The way you use the quotes feature makes for some confusion...

I know this about Pelagius...he believed that man could save himself with no help from the Holy Spirit.

The reason I know about Augustine is because I studied church history...from The Way onward.

Pelagius must certainly be a heretic because I haven't studied that much.

If I don't like Augustine, I don't like him.
Has nothing to do with the bible.

I LOVE the Early Chruch Fathers.

What's funny about calvinists is that they always quote Augustine but hate catholics...

Don't be assuming what I know and what I don't know. All you know that I know is what I post...you know nothing else about what I know or do not know.