Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Dave L]

"seek"?
Who finds who?

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Only the best of the best. Yes sir, even them Pharisees had nothing over you guys.

 

[Saint Steven]

Only the best of the best. Yes sir, even them Pharisees had nothing over you guys.

Do you deny that humankind has a free will? If so, why?

 

[Dave L]

Do you deny that humankind has a free will? If so, why?

We are born slaves to sin.

 

[Saint Steven]

We are born slaves to sin.

What about our God-given human conscience?
Does that not direct us to make free-will decisions based on the knowledge of good and evil? Are not the requirements of God's law written on our hearts?

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Dave L]

What about our God-given human conscience?
Does that not direct us to make free-will decisions based on the knowledge of good and evil? Are not the requirements of God's law written on our hearts?

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The Law in the heart only tells us how sinful we are. We know how we would like to be treated, but we always put ourselves first above others. Money in the bank and luxury spending illustrates this principle.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Law in the heart only tells us how sinful we are. We know how we would like to be treated, but we always put ourselves first above others. Money in the bank and luxury spending illustrates this principle.

It's more than that.
This says that our thoughts sometimes accuse us and at other times defend us.
Why would our God-given conscience defend us?

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Dave L]

It's more than that.
This says that our thoughts sometimes accuse us and at other times defend us.
Why would our God-given conscience defend us?

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

But only condemn us. ISIS kills people as a matter of conscience.

 

[Saint Steven]

But only condemn us. ISIS kills people as a matter of conscience.

You misspelled OSAS.

 

[Saint Steven]

But only condemn us. ISIS kills people as a matter of conscience.

It says that our thoughts sometimes defend us.
Why would our God-given conscience defend us?
For making the right free-will decision.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Dave L]

It says that our thoughts sometimes defend us.
Why would our God-given conscience defend us?
For making the right free-will decision.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Some are crazier than others. Let me ask,do you think people are saved keeping the law written in the heart? If the will is free, why all the cops, armies, licks on door, violence and such?

 

[Saint Steven]

Let me ask,do you think people are saved keeping the law written in the heart?

That's an interesting question.
I think it is parallel with another question:
What about those who have never heard the gospel?

I heard a great explanation of this from a Pastor in an interview.
He said that the only certain way to salvation was through Jesus Christ.
But said that he believed that those who had not had this opportunity would sort it out with God at the judgment. And ultimately God would judge and even grant salvation where it seemed appropriate.

This is somewhat conjectural, of course. But there seems to be some biblical evidence as well. In fact, the very next verse in context indicates just that. See verse sixteen below.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Dave L]

That's an interesting question.
I think it is parallel with another question:
What about those who have never heard the gospel?

I heard a great explanation of this from a Pastor in an interview.
He said that the only certain way to salvation was through Jesus Christ.
But said that he believed that those who had not had this opportunity would sort it out with God at the judgment. And ultimately God would judge and even grant salvation where it seemed appropriate.

This is somewhat conjectural, of course. But there seems to be some biblical evidence as well. In fact, the very next verse in context indicates just that. See verse sixteen below.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Some of the Quakers believe this saying people who walk according to their inner light are saved by it. Even Buddhists or Muslims. But this is salvation by works too.

What I believe is only those whom Christ died for receive the new birth (salvation). This normally happens along with hearing the gospel. Those who are beyond the reach of the gospel are born again and live goodly lives according to the inner law. But they need the gospel to understand repentance that leads to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The new birth turns into the baptism through repentance as defined by the New Covenant.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some of the Quakers believe this saying people who walk according to their inner light are saved by it. Even Buddhists or Muslims. But this is salvation by works too.

What I believe is only those whom Christ died for receive the new birth (salvation). This normally happens along with hearing the gospel. Those who are beyond the reach of the gospel are born again and live goodly lives according to the inner law. But they need the gospel to understand repentance that leads to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The new birth turns into the baptism through repentance as defined by the New Covenant.

We are very close to full agreement on this aspect. How did that happen? lol
I believe that Christ died for the whole world.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Dave L]

We are very close to full agreement on this aspect. How did that happen? lol
I believe that Christ died for the whole world.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I used to think he died for each and every person but here's how it affects our faith.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, faith becomes a mental state we must constantly maintain in order for salvation to become the effect.

But if he died only for the elect, arbitrarily chosen by God, then the atonement is the means of salvation and faith it's effect.

So I know I'm one of the elect because I could not believe in any true sense if I were not.

And in this sense, you stop trying to believe, and realize you believe without trying. (Big relief). Before it was like trying to lift yourself over the fence by your ankles. But now, you know God will lift you over because he already gave you the faith telling you he will.

This also has drastic changes for the better in the Word of Faith sense. Perhaps later.

 

[JAL]

I used to think he died for each and every person but here's how it affects our faith.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, faith becomes a mental state we must constantly maintain in order for salvation to become the effect.

But if he died only for the elect, arbitrarily chosen by God, then the atonement is the means of salvation and faith it's effect.

So I know I'm one of the elect because I could not believe in any true sense if I were not.

And in this sense, you stop trying to believe, and realize you believe without trying. (Big relief). Before it was like trying to lift yourself over the fence by your ankles. But now, you know God will lift you over because he already gave you the faith telling you he will.

This also has drastic changes for the better in the Word of Faith sense. Perhaps later.

Doesn't affect my faith that way. Again:
(1) Monergistic regeneration.
(2) Unilateral election
Someday maybe you'll figure it out.