Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

[dad]

I'll unashamedly call this a paradox of perfection. All of us (man on earth) have our own unique ideas about what a perfect world or society is and have our own discretion of what sin or evil is that is more-or-less in line with what God himself had to have decided as his own idea of perfection (in a mutually inclusive manner regarding the design of Heaven).

I suspect evil might have more to do with who is doing something, than what is being done. If the heart is right, then that is the main thing.

About abortion (or evil in general), my view is that God has created us and doesn't intervene in our free will even if he doesn't condone our choices of evil. By his design he still allowed sin and evil to function in the world, so technically abortion and all sin is not evil according to him (even though I certainly believe abortion is immoral in most general cases).

I don't think that because He doesn't stop the world totally, that He agrees with the evil or calls it anything else. He will deliver us from evil.

 

[Belk]

Sin is disobeying, not obeying.

Oh. So if there is no directive against something it is not a sin? If God requests an action it is not a Sin?

 

[Rajni]

Easy. It is not the ability to choose that makes us do evil. What makes man wicked is that he is in sin. God could do some of the same things and it would not be evil, because He would be doing the same things for good.

So why wouldn't God simply create man so that they're not in
sin? Then they could do whatever they wanted and it would be
"for good". Problem solved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I guess the churches on every corner don't count?

That’s an exaggeration.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Imagine a train is heading for a broken bridge over a deep ravine with a raging cold river below, and you are a passenger. Imagine you only have minutes left because the engineer doesn't know, and nothing could be done to stop it. Imagine some pervert is ogling some child a few cars back from where you sit. Now in your car there is a woman freaking out because she got a text on her phone that the bridge was out only 700 meters from where you were now. You are a Christian, and the woman is unsaved. You want to calm her down and try to have her ask Jesus for salvation in the little time remaining. Are you guilty for not running down the train and shooting the pervert?

This has literally nothing to do with what I posted. But that was probably your intention.

Since in the scenario I’ve suggested, no one would be ogling a child since they have the free will but not the desire to do so. So the conditions of your example wouldn’t even apply.

I’ve never had a Christian give an adequate answer to the scenario I’ve suggested, and I’ve been repeating it for years. It’s been a very effective argument to present to people on the fence about religion. I’ve seen a lot of people deconvert because of it.

Of course, if someone could refute it, then I’d have to stop using it...

 

[pc_76]

So in Heaven we do have free will, but only the desire to do specific things will be gone?

 

[dad]

Oh. So if there is no directive against something it is not a sin? If God requests an action it is not a Sin?

Of course obeying God is not a sin.

 

[dad]

So why wouldn't God simply create man so that they're not in
sin? Then they could do whatever they wanted and it would be
"for good". Problem solved.

Well, I assume He knows what He is doing. He created man with real choice so I guess that is the best thing. God did create man 'not in sin' by the way. Sin came later when they disobeyed and invited death in.

 

[dad]

That’s an exaggeration.

True. But there are a lot of churches in the US.

"Using the National Congregations Study (NCS) conducted in 2006 and 2012, he estimates the number of congregations in the US increased from 336,000 in 1998 to a peak of 414,000 in 2006, but then leveled off at 384,000 in 2012."

"America’s non-Christian religious population grew from 5.8 million in 1990 to 8.7 million in 2008."

How Many Churches Does America Have? More Than Expected

With the current population listed at 328 million, and say about 10 million are non Christian if that survey was correct, that leaves over 300 million Christians? Ha.

 

[Rajni]

Well, I assume He knows what He is doing. He created man with real choice so I guess that is the best thing. God did create man 'ot in sin' by the way. Sin came later when they disobeyed and invited death in.

Wouldn't inviting death in be a sin?
If so, then they were in sin already in order to accomplish
that.

But this just brings us back to my original point. If God
knows what He's doing (and I agree He does), and He's
not doing anything to stop abortions from happening,
then it mustn't be a big deal to Him. He's not going to
wait until He's 'fed up' to do something, because if it
were that distressing to Him, He'd make sure it never
took place to begin with.

 

[dad]

Since in the scenario I’ve suggested, no one would be ogling a child since they have the free will but not the desire to do so. So the conditions of your example wouldn’t even apply.

So what, the perv in your scenario on the train would be locked in the luggage car?

I’ve never had a Christian give an adequate answer to the scenario I’ve suggested, and I’ve been repeating it for years. It’s been a very effective argument to present to people on the fence about religion. I’ve seen a lot of people deconvert because of it.

You must be proud I guess.

Of course, if someone could refute it, then I’d have to stop using it...

Your supposed point is a strawman.

' a) the god you believe in didn’t have the power to create all humans with the free will ability to choose to molest a child but without any proclivity to do so (like myself), or b) your god desires the existence of child molesters more than not.'

Maybe He didn't want to create robots. Maybe He wanted people to chose voluntarily to love Him. If a man asks a woman on a date, does that mean he doesn't have the power to force her?

 

[dad]

So in Heaven we do have free will, but only the desire to do specific things will be gone?

Well, He promises to give us a new heart, and give us the desires of our heart. He already defeated death and sin. So when we go to be where He is in the place He prepared the evil will not be there. No sin. It is hard to imagine what that will be like since we live in a world of sin now. I guess we should get over the idea that somehow we need evil and death and sin to be part of our lives. When it isn't here anymore or part of our experience and life we will be free. Free from sin.

 

[Belk]

Of course obeying God is not a sin.

Gotcha. So if God tells you to murder your child that is not a sin.

 

[dad]

Wouldn't inviting death in be a sin?
If so, then they were in sin already in order to accomplish
that.

Sin and death came into the world by their disobedience. They did not even know what evil was at that time. Satan told them they would be free once they knew both, and that God was a big lying meanie who was trying to keep that wonderful knowledge from them. They chose to believe the serpent. That is when sin came into the world and it has been here ever since. Jesus will give it the boot soon forever.

But this just brings us back to my original point. If God
knows what He's doing (and I agree He does), and He's
not doing anything to stop abortions from happening,
then it mustn't be a big deal to Him.

The horrors of sin were such a big deal He died a horrible death to set us free from sin and the death it inevitably brings. That is the opposite of liking evil.

He's not going to
wait until He's 'fed up' to do something, because if it
were that distressing to Him, He'd make sure it never
took place to begin with.

A child that had a real hard childhood might think that life was still worthwhile despite all the bad they endured. This life is a drop in the ocean of eternity and is for learning. Apparently learning about evil and good was a valuable part of our education.

 

[dad]

Gotcha. So if God tells you to murder your child that is not a sin.

Correct.

What really happened with Abraham was that he became a friend of God and the father of faith and many nations. His story was a shadow and picture of things to come and the story of the Lamb of God and God giving His Son for us in the greatest love story ever told.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Well, I assume He knows what He is doing. He created man with real choice so I guess that is the best thing. God did create man 'not in sin' by the way. Sin came later when they disobeyed and invited death in.

The best thing is a world with child molesters? Can you give any justification for that?

 

[Rajni]

Sin and death came into the world by their disobedience.

Wouldn't sin have to be there before they disobeyed?
It's rather difficult to commit a sin of disobedience if
sin wasn't in the picture yet.

The horrors of sin were such a big deal He died a horrible death to set us free from sin and the death it inevitably brings. That is the opposite of liking evil.

Seems like there could have been more direct, immediate
remedies to the sin problem in an all-powerful God's toolbox
than dying a horrible death 2,000 plus years ago that still
hasn't stopped things like abortion from happening to this
day.

A child that had a real hard childhood might think that life was still worthwhile despite all the bad they endured. This life is a drop in the ocean of eternity and is for learning. Apparently learning about evil and good was a valuable part of our education.

Not sure what this has to do with what it was in response to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

True. But there are a lot of churches in the US.

"Using the National Congregations Study (NCS) conducted in 2006 and 2012, he estimates the number of congregations in the US increased from 336,000 in 1998 to a peak of 414,000 in 2006, but then leveled off at 384,000 in 2012."

"America’s non-Christian religious population grew from 5.8 million in 1990 to 8.7 million in 2008."

How Many Churches Does America Have? More Than Expected

With the current population listed at 328 million, and say about 10 million are non Christian if that survey was correct, that leaves over 300 million Christians? Ha.

Wow so how many of them curse, get drunk, do drugs, watch pornography, commit adultery, hate their brothers, and have little to no regard for God’s word or His commandments on a regular basis? Do you believe it’s only 10 million? Do you believe 300 million Americans have read the Bible? What I see on a daily basis is that true Christians are extremely rare in America. According to your figures that means the average congregation has about 780 members? I would really love to believe that is true but I just don’t see it in my everyday life. If I had to take a guess just based on people that I know and have met I would say maybe 1 out of 50 are Christian. I think the problem with your numbers is it doesn’t include false professors. Remember Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 7:21-23 my friend.

 

[Belk]

Correct.

What really happened with Abraham was that he became a friend of God and the father of faith and many nations. His story was a shadow and picture of things to come and the story of the Lamb of God and God giving His Son for us in the greatest love story ever told.

Excellent! Now we are getting somewhere. So. Where is the instruction for women to not have an abortion in the bible?

 

[dad]

The best thing is a world with child molesters? Can you give any justification for that?

If you look only at the dirt you don't see the sky.