Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

[Rajni]

The mistake was for you to try and justify child sacrifices or insinuate God was in agreement. Cheers

I'm still waiting for someone to tackle my point.
Up to now it seems have remained... "Undefeated".

 

[dad]

I'm still waiting for someone to tackle my point.
Up to now it seems have remained... "Undefeated".

I guess your point was somewhere i this post of your.

"God, in His omniscience, has the power to foreknow which wombs are abortion-
prone and move to prevent the abortion from taking place by withholding
conception from that womb.

But some would have us believe that He instead stands by passively,
wringing His hands about it until He supposedly reaches some future saturation-
point, where He then goes ballistic on an entire nation over it.

Sorry, doesn’t add up."

So maybe explain what was your point? Ha.

 

[Rajni]

I guess your point was somewhere i this post of your.

"God, in His omniscience, has the power to foreknow which wombs are abortion-
prone and move to prevent the abortion from taking place by withholding
conception from that womb.

But some would have us believe that He instead stands by passively,
wringing His hands about it until He supposedly reaches some future saturation-
point, where He then goes ballistic on an entire nation over it.

Sorry, doesn’t add up."

So maybe explain what was your point? Ha.

My point is that it doesn't add up.

 

[dad]

My point is that it doesn't add up.

"It"? What is your point, that God is to blame? Or you do or do not support whacking kids? Or..?

 

[durangodawood]

Christians, and pretty much everybody else, dont really believe that early term pregnancies are actually people. This is obvious.

The whole issue is just a sort of right wing political glue to hold people in line.

 

[ranunculus]

First off, I believe that human life starts at conception. Because how could it not? I also think that it's impossible to regard that human life as a person for purely practical reasons. We don't live in a universe that allows us to do that.

Up to 50 percent of all fertilized eggs are lost before a woman's missed menses.

Conception: How It Works

Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant.

Miscarriage: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15-25% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

Now let's say we grant a fetus person-hood from conception, as many pro life supporters want. That would mean criminalizing both IVF and miscarriages. Picture this scenario.

If I were to ran over any person, child or adult, with my car in the mall parking lot, there would be an investigation. I would be tested for alcohol and drugs and if I were found to be at fault I would go to prison, most likely for involuntary manslaughter. (Correct me if I'm wrong about this)
Or consider this news story: Discovery of toddler's body in yard leads to couple's arrest
The fact that a child's body was found on the property was cause to make an arrest.

Now if we afford a fetus the same rights as that person who was run over in the mall parking lot, then every time a woman miscarries there would need to be an investigation into the cause. You can't just throw your hands up and say "well, it was probably an accident." Because that would be conceding that a fetus doesn't have the same rights as a person.
And how do you differentiate between a spontaneous abortion and a self induced abortion? (A self-induced abortion or self-induced miscarriage is an abortion performed by the pregnant woman herself outside the recognized medical system. )
You can't lock up every women who has had a miscarriage. That would leave almost the entire female population in prison and create a dystopian police state.
If you want to be consistent, there needs to be created a system were pregnancies have to be registered, and monitored with mandatory checkups of any blood loss by a doctor,...
But this would be practically impossible. Every pad, tampon would become a crime scene investigation. Most states don't even have enough resources to test rape kits. Thousands get thrown away untested. So how will they test every failed pregnancy?
Imagine a couple trying to conceive, they want to start a family. Statistically they have a high chance of killing a zygote that fails to implant as you can see from the statistics I mentioned. Do you want them to be the subject of a criminal investigation? If the answer is no then a zygote isn't a person.
And that's why I don't believe in granting person-hood starting from conception, from a practical standpoint.

A few additional points
If you believe God created this universe, you must also believe he made it so that it is impossible to regard a fetus as fully human.
For hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, God was apparently ok with a high death rate of children. The reason people had so many children in the past is because so many of them died. If you want the stats on that look here.

A century ago every third child died before it was five years old

Thanks to advancements medical science the mortality rate has been drastically reduced to something like less than 1%.

When abortion will finally be outlawed, it will be because medical science will advance far enough that a fetus can be made viable outside of a women's body in some kind of artificial womb, and not because of religious dogma or people screaming at women outside of a clinic.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You make a lot of very good points, ranunculus. Of course, as soon as the human egg and sperm unite, the form a living organism. And of course, it isn't - can't be - a person. This is obvious to anyone who has the word "person" in their vocabulary. The arguments I posted are a good way of clarifying and explaining this reaction, justifying the instinctive understanding with reasons. dad and SPF refused to read them.

 

[Rajni]

"It"? What is your point, that God is to blame? Or you do or do not support whacking kids? Or..?

God isn't to blame, but He is responsible (with power comes responsibility, so if one is all-
powerful, then it follows that one is all-responsible).

If He is as distressed about abortion as is claimed, the sensible thing for Him to do would be
not to wait until he's reached the point of being "fed up" as you put it. Using His powers of
foreknowledge, He'd take the pro-life route of preventing abortion-prone wombs from
conceiving to begin with. He wouldn't, as is being suggested by the OP, stand by acting all
helpless in the meantime and taking action long after countless abortions have been
committed. People who play this "just wait till your Father gets home!" card don't seem to
see this.

 

[Rajni]

You make a lot of very good points, ranunculus. Of course, as soon as the human egg and sperm unite, the form a living organism. And of course, it isn't - can't be - a person.

IMO, at most, it's akin to a costume. An earth-suit.

An earth-suit isn't a person -- it's the vehicle a person uses to navigate this
dimension. We exist apart from our bodies, so when a body stops working for
whatever reason, we continue on. I don't cease to exist because my jeans wear
out or get summarily trashed.

If abortion was the disaster that pro-lifers (or, more accurately, pro-birthers)
make it out to be, and it was as offensive to God as it's made out to be, God
would make sure they never took place to begin with, imo.

As it is, this pro-birth narrative of God as helpless, distressed bystander who
will ultimately snap and go ballistic only after so much supposed damage has
been done tap-dances on my last nerve.

 

[Belk]

I have been thinking lately about how God might be working in America primarily due to the abortion issue there. Almost a feeling that God is fed up with a nation that has proclaimed faith in Him in many ways, that is plunging deeply into murdering children. I have the feeling that He is about to act.

I read an article linking ancient child sacrifice to abortions. Here is a quote from it

"...Tertullian, for example, commenting on the Roman practice of infanticide by comparing it to the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice, admonishes:

there is no difference as to baby killing whether you do it as a sacred rite or just because you choose to do it.

In the same context Tertullian describes the Christian attitude towards both abortion and infanticide saying:

For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.[30]

The most obvious parallel between the rite of child sacrifice and the practice of abortion is the sober fact that the parents actually kill their own offspring. There are however many other parallels. At Carthage the main reason for sacrificing a child was to avert potential dangers in a crisis or to gain success through fulfilling a vow. Today many times when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, abortion seems to be the only way to resolve the crisis she finds herself in. The potential danger to reputation, education, career, etc., become overwhelming. To avert the seemingly terrifying consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term, the woman may turn to abortion as a means of escape. Another woman may experience much less of the anxiety and fear that accompany a crisis. She may simply see the pregnancy as an intrusion into her self-serving lifestyle and an obstacle in the way of the road to her success. Sadly this woman's offspring must be sacrificed so that she can continue uninterrupted with her plans for the future.[30b]"

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice



Here is my suggestion for America...and eventually, the world.

'Repent, or perish'

Literally.
.

Uh huh

God said to him, “Abraham!”

And he said, “Yes!”

Then God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me. This must be Isaac, your only son, the one you love. Use him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains there. I will tell you which mountain.”

Seems pretty OK with child sacrifice here.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Oh well. You're too much for me, dad. You're convinced you're right, and when things show you're wrong you just ignore them. I've pointed out your mistakes several times, and you keep repeating them. So I guess I've spent enough time talking to you by now. Take care.

Knowing when to disengage with those who have a shield around the part of the brain that handles logic is a true sign of wisdom.

 

[dad]

God isn't to blame, but He is responsible (with power comes responsibility, so if one is all-
powerful, then it follows that one is all-responsible).

Ah. So you think you are some sort of victim and robot. 'He could have made me do the right thing'. So God is to blame for man having free will eh? I kind of like free will.

If He is as distressed about abortion as is claimed, the sensible thing for Him to do would be
not to wait until he's reached the point of being "fed up" as you put it. Using His powers of
foreknowledge, He'd take the pro-life route of preventing abortion-prone wombs from
conceiving to begin with.

I see. Guess He would also stop Hitler before he was born, and stop every sinner on earth...which is every person on earth.

He wouldn't, as is being suggested by the OP, stand by acting all
helpless in the meantime and taking action long after countless abortions have been
committed. People who play this "just wait till your Father gets home!" card don't seem to
see this.

It is not helplessness that stops Him from taking over the world right now. It is love. He wants as many as possible to accept the gift of eternal life Jesus gave. Once He steps in forever here, the chance is gone for people to choose as we now can.

 

[dad]

Uh huh



Seems pretty OK with child sacrifice here.

Not really. Once again God never intended to allow the child to be killed! He would not ask man to sacrifice that way. But He Himself did it for us. This was a test.

 

[Rajni]

Ah. So you think you are some sort of victim and robot. 'He could have made me do the right thing'. So God is to blame for man having free will eh? I kind of like free will.

One can do the right thing without being a victim and robot.
Unless you're suggesting that God is a victim and a robot...?

I see. Guess He would also stop Hitler before he was born, and stop every sinner on earth...which is every person on earth.

Exactly! But He didn't, now, did He?

And forget about the worn-out Godwin's law -- what about Paul, who, allegedly
under full inspiration of the Holy Spirit (which can see into the future and
therefore know about the future Hitler), claimed himself to be the "worst of
sinners"?

At any rate, it makes one wonder about the true nature of the "evils"
of the world.

It is not helplessness that stops Him from taking over the world right now. It is love. He wants as many as possible to accept the gift of eternal life Jesus gave.

A very flawed narrative.

How is it "love" to let so many lives be ended in abortion (if that's precisely
what's happening, which is debatable -- however, if one believes that, then one
cannot say it's "love" that is letting that happen and be taken at all seriously,
sorry)?

Once He steps in forever here, the chance is gone for people to choose as we now can.

At which point we become victims and robots, right?

 

[Rajni]

Not really. Once again God never intended to allow the child to be killed! He would not ask man to sacrifice that way. But He Himself did it for us. This was a test.

But if child sacrifice is wrong, then he failed the test by agreeing to attempt it.

 

[dad]

One can do the right thing without being a victim and robot.
Unless you're suggesting that God is a victim and a robot...?

If we are free then we are not robots. If He did the choosing for us, we would be.

Exactly! But He didn't, now, did He?

If He stopped Hitler He would need to stop all men.

And forget about the worn-out Godwin's law -- what about Paul, who, allegedly
under full inspiration of the Holy Spirit (which can see into the future and
therefore know about the future Hitler), claimed himself to be the "worst of
sinners"?

A saved sinner is fine. Not like we become miss or mister perfect all of a sudden.

How is it "love" to let so many lives be ended in abortion (if that's precisely
what's happening, which is debatable -- however, if one believes that, then one
cannot say it's "love" that is letting that happen and be taken at all seriously,
sorry)?

He loved man enough to come down and be a man and die for us. That was better apparently in God's mind, then violating our choice. We now can choose Jesus and eternal life. Or we can reject it.

 

[dad]

But if child sacrifice is wrong, then he failed the test by agreeing to attempt it.

No. The test was to see if Abe loved God above even the promised miracle child that finally came when they were way past child bearing age. If the idea was to kill the child, that would have been done. God stepped in and made it clear He would not ask man to do this.

Abraham also believed that if he did have to sacrifice Isaac God would have raised him from the dead right there.

 

[Rajni]

If we are free then we are not robots. If He did the choosing for us, we would be.

God is free -- is He a robot?

If He stopped Hitler He would need to stop all men.

And this would be a problem because... ?

He already stopped Paul (back when he was still Saul) on the
road to Damascus. Doesn't seem He felt the need to stop all
men because of that. So why conclude that if he stopped Hitler
He'd have to stop all men?

A saved sinner is fine. Not like we become miss or mister perfect all of a sudden.

Paul wasn't claiming to be just another garden-variety sinner. He
distinctly said he was the "worst" of sinners. That means worse
than Hitler, or even Nero. But it seems you're saying that this is
"fine" because he's guaranteed a spot in heaven when he dies.

He loved man enough to come down and be a man and die for us. That was better apparently in God's mind, then violating our choice. We now can choose Jesus and eternal life. Or we can reject it.

That's pretty messed up. God probably isn't all that concerned
about abortion if He's giving "free will" (a dubious concept, but
I digress) precedence over preventing it.

He already causes wombs not to conceive, and no one is
complaining about "free will" being violated in such instances.
So why would it all of a sudden be called a violation of "free will"
if the wombs that were rendered sterile were the same ones
belonging to abortion-prone women?

No. The test was to see if Abe loved God above even the promised miracle child that finally came when they were way past child bearing age. If the idea was to kill the child, that would have been done.

God told Abraham to do something that is wrong,
and Abraham went along with it.

God stepped in

Ah, so why doesn't God step in with all the abortions if
indeed they're as awful as pro-birthers say they are?

 

[dad]

God is free -- is He a robot?

He respects our choice. He is not like a rapist that forces women. He is more like a gentle shepherd that asks us to follow.

And this would be a problem because... ?

He already stopped Paul (back when he was still Saul) on the
road to Damascus. Doesn't seem He felt the need to stop all
men because of that. So why conclude that if he stopped Hitler
He'd have to stop all men?

Paul had likely been praying and seeking. So God answered.

Paul wasn't claiming to be just another garden-variety sinner. He
distinctly said he was the "worst" of sinners. That means worse
than Hitler, or even Nero. But it seems you're saying that this is
"fine" because he's guaranteed a spot in heaven when he dies.

God only uses sinners. There are no other kind of saints! Paul repented. Hitler didn't.

That's pretty messed up. God probably isn't all that concerned
about abortion if He's giving "free will" (a dubious concept, but
I digress) precedence over preventing it.

He was concerned enough to die for us to make a way to escape the evil. You seem to want Him to force everyone.

He already causes wombs not to conceive, and no one is
complaining about "free will" being violated in such instances.
So why would it all of a sudden be called a violation of "free will"
if the wombs that were rendered sterile were the same ones
belonging to abortion-prone women?

Women prone to desiring to kill babies have free will just as mass murders do for the moment. When He steps in, He will not allow that sort of thing any more, and no one except the saved will even be on earth any more. But remember there is a lot of good also here on earth. Many people are learning things, and changing, and being worked on from the inside out. Many people will still make the choice to receive His salvation. If He had stepped in before I was born, for example, I never would have gotten the chance or choice. If God had stepped in to stop Hitler I would not be here..nor untold millions of other believers.

God told Abraham to do something that is wrong,
and Abraham went along with it.

It was a test and the test was right. He was not going to allow the child to die anyhow. He already had a sheep arranged and stuck in a thicket nearby!

Ah, so why doesn't God step in with all the abortions if
indeed they're as awful as pro-birthers say they are?

He is coming back again to rule soon. Get saved right away!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If we are free then we are not robots. If He did the choosing for us, we would be.

An omnipotent god could have created humans with the free will to sin, but with no proclivity to sin. So we wouldn’t be robots, and we wouldn’t sin.

Since the god you believe in obviously didn’t do that, then you have to conclude that this god desires humans to sin more than creating humans that don’t.

That’s not my definition of “loving”...