Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Dave L]

I think you keep harping on this question on account of a tunnel-vision (on your part!). You seem to think that, if there are any shortcomings in the church (such as the ones I've alleged), then hell has prevailed. But don't we both agree on the existence of shortcomings? Was Paul ecstatic about the situation in Corinth? Galatia?

Why are we debating what we both agree on?

You doubt Jesus' words about the prevailing church. I believe them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit all believers since Abel had.

Right. I can't remember what we are arguing about either. lol

Here's a question: What do think the purpose of 1Cor.12-14 are?
Were they included in the NT so that Cessationists would have some ammo to use against Continuationists, or do they serve some lower purpose? lol

 

[Saint Steven]

All the spiritual gifts turn out to be incredible useful and encouraging for the life of a church, and many churches, when used correctly. An argument on what is "necessary" doesn't make sense to me anyway - who am I to decide what is necessary or not for the growth of God's church? It's not my church, it's His.

They ask, "Do we have to have spiritual gifts?"
To which I say, "No, we don't 'have' to, we 'get' to."

 

[JAL]

You doubt Jesus' words about the prevailing church. I believe them.

Nope. You're just creating false dichotomies. A church with shortcomings isn't an extinguished church. Therefore hell hasn't prevailed. That's what Jesus said, and I believe Him.

 

[Dave L]

Right. I can't remember what we are arguing about either. lol

Here's a question: What do think the purpose of 1Cor.12-14 are?
Were they included in the NT so that Cessationists would have some ammo to use against Continuationists, or do they serve some lower purpose? lol

My understanding is that the Charismatic gifts provided the New Covenant revelation in piecemeal fashion. But when the tongues and prophecy messages were written and collected they became the full revelation of the New Covenant.

Paul said to come behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This happened in John's writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. At which time the gifts disappear from history. Only hearsay comments about them occurring in obscure sects and cults exist. And God watching over his church obviously removed the originals with the completion of scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Nope. You're just creating false dichotomies. A church with shortcomings isn't an extinguished church. Therefore hell hasn't prevailed. That's what Jesus said, and I believe Him.

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. You say they do.

 

[JAL]

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. You say they do.

I've responded to this already. Future references to it will be ignored.

 

[Saint Steven]

My understanding is that the Charismatic gifts provided the New Covenant revelation in piecemeal fashion. But when the tongues and prophecy messages were written and collected they became the full revelation of the New Covenant.

Paul said to come behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This happened in John's writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. At which time the gifts disappear from history. Only hearsay comments about them occurring in obscure sects and cults exist. And God watching over his church obviously removed the originals with the completion of scripture.

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed answer. I appreciate the effort.

So, 1Cor.13 was the only clue to this that we were left with?
All the other arguments seem to stem from there.

You mentioned that "the tongues and prophecy messages were written and collected". Where did those end up? If you know.

I would have imagined that any tongues or prophecy in the churches would have been like today. For the purpose of "strengthening, encouraging and comfort." - 1Cor.14:3

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

 

[Butch5]

Spend some time in other nations where no one has even heard of your language, and then come tell me whether tongues is "necessary". .

All the spiritual gifts turn out to be incredible useful and encouraging for the life of a church, and many churches, when used correctly. An argument on what is "necessary" doesn't make sense to me anyway - who am I to decide what is necessary or not for the growth of God's church? It's not my church, it's His.

The gifts are "grace" gifts (charis). God decided to give gifts to make the work He gave work better. That's his decision, obviously.

As for the argument around the apostles needing to lay hands on people for the gift, that would mean that Paul had to have laid hands on everyone in Corinth who had the gift, implying that any new people who came in didn't have any gifts because Paul was not there. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case. Rather, it appears a lot of new people were misusing the gift and Paul had to teach them. Why did he have to teach them? Why is it that the Corinthian church could misuse the gifts and yet those gifts are still labelled by cessationists as genuine, but a modern day misuse of gifts is a sign of the gifts not being genuine? I'm afraid this is a contradiction in the cessationist argument that is never answered satisfactorily.

Secondly, your quotation of Romans disproves your point. You don't have any evidence that an apostle planted that church and laid hands on people and gave then the gift of prophecy. You've simply stared that obviously it must have been some sort of apostle - a case of eisegesis.

Thirdly, it appears that all 120 that were in the upper room in Acts 2 got the gift of tongues. Now, were all these 120 apostles? If so, who else was an apostle that we don't know about? And why then could there not be apostles today?

To be frank, the problem I find with most cessationist churches (not all, but most) is they are incredibly homogenous, they don't know how to deal with people of different races, and they lack a great deal in evangelicalistic zeal. If you only ever stick to your neighbourhood and class you're not going to see the "necessity" of the gifts. Get out a bit more and the need for them becomes patently obvious.

Obviously you're not reading the post correctly. However, from your other posts I get the impression your not really interested in the facts.

 

[Butch5]

At Post 122 you said:

"If tongues will end on its own and it is a sign of judgement to unbelieving Israel in Christ's day, what need is there for it after that judgment that it was foretelling has passed? The maturity has no bearing on the ending of tongues."

The argument was that the gifts were needed in the church today. I didn't bring up that argument others did. What I said was what need is there of the sign when the judgment has passed? I wasn't talking about a need for tongues in the church. I asked what need was there for a sign of judgment when that judgment had already passed.

 

[Butch5]

At Post 122 you said:

"If tongues will end on its own and it is a sign of judgement to unbelieving Israel in Christ's day, what need is there for it after that judgment that it was foretelling has passed? The maturity has no bearing on the ending of tongues."

I was talking of the sign of the judgment, not the need of the gifts in the church. This is why context is so important. People just pick and choose what they want and then interpret it however, the feel.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Cessationism has a way of nipping in the bud practically all cults (in the negative sense of the term) because in almost all instances their founders are considered "prophets". Personally do not have the time or motivation to sort through thousands of cults which are founded on the presuppositon of continualism to conclude they're all false and Christianity is true. Neither do I feel any urgency to give them the time or day or consideration while they prey upon spiritual sensitivities and offer help with struggles in the physical world.

 

[Butch5]

When exactly do you think this scripture was written?

James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

I've already explained this. The gift of healing was the ability to heal. When Peter raised the lame man he didn't praise and then come back next week and see if the guy could walk. He said told him to get up. When Paul raised the dead, he didn't pray and come back a few days later and see what happened. James is talking about going to God in prayer and seeking healing for someone. They may be healed, the may not. It wasn't that way with the apostles.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've already explained this. The gift of healing was the ability to heal. When Peter raised the lame man he didn't praise and then come back next week and see if the guy could walk. He said told him to get up. When Paul raised the dead, he didn't pray and come back a few days later and see what happened. James is talking about going to God in prayer and seeking healing for someone. They may be healed, the may not. It wasn't that way with the apostles.

James was writing to the churches in the first centuries. (and for us today)
We don't always have all the details on what went on. Here is a story where Jesus worked through a process with a healing. The sort of process you claim didn't happen back then.

Mark 8:23-25
He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?” 24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.” 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.

 

[Butch5]

James was writing to the churches in the first centuries. (and for us today)
We don't always have all the details on what went on. Here is a story where Jesus worked through a process with a healing. The sort of process you claim didn't happen back then.

Mark 8:23-25
He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?” 24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.” 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.

Where did I say this didn't happen?

 

[Saint Steven]

Where did I say this didn't happen?

There's that chronic problem again. lol
You don't remember claiming that healing today is not like the first century?
What Jesus did is the same interview style methodology we use today.

 

[JAL]

I was talking of the sign of the judgment, not the need of the gifts in the church. This is why context is so important. People just pick and choose what they want and then interpret it however, the feel.

You intimated that the purpose of the tongues was a sign, and that it ceased when the sign was no longer needed.

To claim that gifts were largely just 'sign-gifts' that are 'no longer needed today' has the ring of standard cessationist dogma. You can hardly fault me for that assessment, and I still fail to see where I'm at fault. Put yourself in my shoes. Having witnessed similar-sounding statements so many times from so many cessationists, it's virtually impossible for me to read your words any other way.

 

[Butch5]

There's that chronic problem again. lol
You don't remember claiming that healing today is not like the first century?
What Jesus did is the same interview style methodology we use today.

That's not what I said. You might want to re-read that again

 

[Hillsage]

I've already explained this. The gift of healing was the ability to heal. When Peter raised the lame man he didn't praise and then come back next week and see if the guy could walk. He said told him to get up.

When Paul raised the dead, he didn't pray and come back a few days later and see what happened. James is talking about going to God in prayer and seeking healing for someone. They may be healed, the may not. It wasn't that way with the apostles.

It was ‘that way’ with the disciples;
MAT 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

It 'was' the way with JESUS;
MAR 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.

It 'was' with apostle Paul;
2TI 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

I'm going to assume that Trophimus was an unbeliever also, seems to be the prevailing issue then, as now.

 

[Butch5]

You intimated that the purpose of the tongues was a sign, and that it ceased when the sign was no longer needed.

To claim that gifts were largely just 'sign-gifts' that are 'no longer needed today' has the ring of standard cessationist dogma. You can hardly fault me for that assessment, and I still fail to see where I'm at fault. Put yourself in my shoes. Having witnessed similar-sounding statements so many times from so many cessationists, it's virtually impossible for me to read your words any other way.

That's seems to be the problem. You're reading others arguments into what I say. I didn't intimate that tongues was sign, I stated it plainly. It was a sign. Paul plainly said it was a sign. I'm simply repeating what Paul said. He said it was a sign to unbelievers. The Gifts were signs. The purpose of the gifts was to confirm the apostles message.

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 KJV)

The Lord was confirming the apostles message with signs, wonders, diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gifts were a conformation that the message of the apostles was from God.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. (Mk. 16:15-20 KJV)

Again, Jesus said that these signs would follow those who believed the apostles Gospel. This goes right along with Hebrews, that these signs confirm the apostles message. Ever notice though that you don't see many claiming to have the gift of taking up serpent and drinking deadly things? Hmm...