WHY all the great confusion about eternal security?

[BCsenior]

Thanks for being open and honest about your position. At least readers will know what they are dealing with.

Perhaps this is worth noting ...
On christian forums, I have noticed that very
often women tend to form their doctrines
though their (emotional) experiences!
Methinks I see that in you also.
IMO, my view of what Scripture means
comes only from what it clearly says
(as revealed via the Holy Spirit).
No emotional attachments.
No experiences to speak of.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Given that Jesus appeared to me face to face when I was about 10 years old yes I have heard His word outside of but not in contradiction with scripture. This was an emotional experience for sure and He intended it that way. Jesus is an emotional. We have stereotyped the man thing - a real man is emotional like Jesus. This however has nothing to do with the issue. God speaks in a variety of ways, through scripture, through creation, directly to our spirit, in dreams and visions, he even used a donkey... It is normal to be emotional when hearing Him. I could go on but you have already judged me as deaf to 'His word' through you, so there is little point. To conclude that my claim to know that I am saved is emotional - is laughable... You cant demand that He deals with others the way he has dealt with you. Rom 14 warns us against judging others that have a different faith than us. I rejoice in whatever eternal fruit comes from your service to Him and you should reciprocate.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lately, Satan has deceived much of the church into believing that God’s grace is guaranteed to last forever in believers’ lives. Some people are calling this “hyper grace” (extreme grace). The truth of the matter is that Ephesians 2:8-9 is ONLY saying: it is only by God’s grace that sinful people can be born again!

Satan had nothing to do with the doctrine of eternal security.

Jesus is the One who guarantees eternal security to everyone He gives eternal life to.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The recipients here are His "sheep". One becomes one of His sheep by "entering through Him, as the "gate", from back in v.9.

Therefore, those who believe in Him are given the gift of eternal life, and shall never perish.

Even if your Bible says “by grace you are being saved”, salvation is still a process -- not to be completed until death.

Jesus says otherwise. Whoever believes in Him HAS (present possession) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Just to make it real clear,

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

So, whoever believes in Christ for salvation has been given eternal life, and shall never perish.

Please understand: man’s co-operation is involved in his salvation.

The only thing man is involved in is in RECEIVING salvation. It's a passive occurrence from man's perspective. It is God who gives salvation.

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

He can choose to fall away, fall from grace, draw back to perdition. He can be shut out of the Kingdom of God. He can be shut out of the New Jerusalem. He can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

There are no verses that say that salvation can be lost. Yes, a believer can fall from grace. They do so by seeking justification by works (keeping the Law).

No verses about any believer being "shut out of the New Jerusalem", or being "blotted out of the book of life". Or "shut out of the kingdom of God". None.

He can gain eternal death, and he can lose eternal life.
All of this is clearly stated in the NT.

None of it is. And no one "gains eternal death", since all humans are born that way; spiritually dead, separated from God.

And there are no verses that a person with eternal life can lose it, or die again spiritually.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Every person who believes in Christ for salvation is said to be born again. Peter makes it clear by what we are born again; of imperishable seed.

That means a born again person cannot perish. Gee, that's what John 3:16 and 10:28 says as well.

Those who teach that salvation can be lost are unbiblical.

 

[BCsenior]

To conclude that my claim to know that I am saved is emotional - is laughable... You cant demand that He deals with others the way he has dealt with you.

Laughable is right ...
You are interested in your experiences, and are not interested in quoting Scripture to back up anything.

I am interested in teaching spiritual Truth
through what the NT is trying to reveal to us
... by quoting clear Scripture verses.

 

[Norbert L]

Preaching and teaching against eternal security …
is definitely NOT for new Christians, “babes on milk”.
For many of them, it would be much too discouraging!

But, as they grow in the faith, the precious Holy Spirit
will be trying to revealing deeper spiritual Truths to them.

However, the Spirit only speaks with a still small voice
...which is quite an unfair fight when compared to the opposition: (1) the onslaughts of Satan’s demons,
and (2) man’s fleshly desires!

And these maturing BACs have other big problems to overcome!

There are deceived pastors in the church, who pass on
their deceptions to the poor sheep who depend on them.

Yes, there are false doctrines within the church
... obvious because of all of the many denominations.
Jesus and everyone in the NT warn about false doctrines
and false teachers and false prophets.

Some pastors are SO deceived about eternal security
that they believe the warning verses in the NT concerning
those who are sinning … are only for unsaved people!

Some pastors are NOT deceived, but have allowed themselves to be taken captive by the enemy … and have chosen to prefer the praise of men and the riches of this world over God’s praise! They refuse to preach unpopular doctrines that drive people away, resulting in their kingdom being diminished and fewer tithes coming in!

Then, we have believers who recognize the warning verses, but choose to ignore or reject them so they can stay on the easy and fun broad road.

Many NT verses teach against eternal security.
Most of these Truths are proven by many NT verses:
● Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
● Believers stay righteous through their obedience
● Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
● Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
● Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
● Believers must be victorious overcomers
● Believers must stay faithful during persecution
● Believers must not take the mark of the beast

Lately, Satan has deceived much of the church into believing that God’s grace is guaranteed to last forever
in believers’ lives. Some people are calling this
“hyper grace” (extreme grace). The truth of the matter
is that Ephesians 2:8-9 is ONLY saying: it is only
by God’s grace that sinful people can be born again!

Even if your Bible says “by grace you are being saved”, salvation is still a process -- not to be completed
until death. Please understand: man’s co-operation
is involved in his salvation. He can choose to
fall away, fall from grace, draw back to perdition.
He can be shut out of the Kingdom of God.
He can be shut out of the New Jerusalem.
He can be blotted out of the Book of Life.
He can gain eternal death, and he can lose eternal life.
All of this is clearly stated in the NT.

I think we have too much time on our hands. Anyone who is capable of maintaining an internet connection can be distracted with being far too cerebral about bible slogans rather than do something productive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Laughable is right ...
You are interested in your experiences, and are not interested in quoting Scripture to back up anything.

I am interested in teaching spiritual Truth
through what the NT is trying to reveal to us
... by quoting clear Scripture verses.

I've quoted clear Scripture verses that teach eternal security. Are you interested in those verses?

 

[BCsenior]

Believe it or not ...
the NT teaches us how to RECONCILE
the so-called eternal security verses ... with ...
the NT verses that teach against eternal security!

We are to understand that ...
True saving faith = enduring heart belief
+ enduring trust + enduring obedience

Regarding the English word "believe" in the NT:
-- There is no one word (in any language) which encompasses everything that this word "believe" means.
-- Some Greek words can up to 40 different meanings, depending on the context.
-- Some Greek words have a slightly different meaning
in the secular world than in the New Testament.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have in fact referred to 9 scriptures on this thread and don't see the point of duplicating what others have offered. The fruit of my ministry confirms that my hearing Him is far from purely an emotional experience as you claim. I have tried to calmly bring to your attention scriptures and arguments that challenge your position and you want to 'shoot' the messenger... Sorry to challenge your bubble but there are other ways of understanding how scripture fits together and many have tried like myself to present this to you.

By the way Jesus spoke about 31,000 words and yet referred to only about 30 scriptures.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[BCsenior]

Salvation is a process which is completed at death.

Please understand:
man’s co-operation is involved in his salvation.

He can choose to fall away, fall from grace,
draw back to perdition.

He can be shut out of the Kingdom of God.
He can be shut out of the New Jerusalem.
He can be blotted out of the Book of Life.
He can gain eternal death, and he can lose eternal life.

All of this is clearly stated in the NT.
Would anyone care to see some verses?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believe it or not ...
the NT teaches us how to RECONCILE
the so-called eternal security verses ... with ...
the NT verses that teach against eternal security!

There is no such thing as reconciling contradictory statements or ideas.

We are to understand that ...
True saving faith = enduring heart belief
+ enduring trust + enduring obedience

Except none of this is found in Scripture. Once one has believed, they are encouraged to continue to believe, or continue in the faith.

Regarding the English word "believe" in the NT:
-- There is no one word (in any language) which encompasses everything that this word "believe" means.
-- Some Greek words can up to 40 different meanings, depending on the context.
-- Some Greek words have a slightly different meaning
in the secular world than in the New Testament.

So, what to do? Just make up your own personal flavor of what it means?

No. Greek lexicons have already informed us of what pisteuo means. Trust.

btw, your so-called "40 different meanings" is really only about synonyms. Not "different" meanings.

If that were true, then the Bible means nothing, since it means everything. Nonsense.

What you won't deal with is the clear statement by Jesus in John 10:28, that believers are given eternal life and shall never perish.

If there were conditions that recipients must fulfill, Jesus would have been very negligent to leave any of them out in that statement found in John 10:28.

But there are no such conditions between being given eternal life and never perishing.

Because there are no conditions beyond being given eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation is a process which is completed at death.

Jesus clearly said that eternal life is possessed by those who believe. There is no process.

And Jesus made that very clear in John 10:28. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Please understand:
man’s co-operation is involved in his salvation.

Meaning, man must receive it.

No different than a drowning person grabbing a life buoy thrown by someone. Does the drowning person credit himself for grabbing on to the life buoy, or does he rightly and properly credit the person who threw him the life buoy and hauled him in?

Anyone who would take credit for grabbing the life buoy and claiming that they saved themselves would be an idiot.

He can choose to fall away, fall from grace,
draw back to perdition.

Falling from grace has NOT been shown to be leaving salvation.

He can be shut out of the Kingdom of God.
He can be shut out of the New Jerusalem.
He can be blotted out of the Book of Life.
He can gain eternal death, and he can lose eternal life.
All of this is clearly stated in the NT.

Go ahead and keep repeating your mantra. But that doesn't prove your claims, or make them true, no matter how many times you repeat them.

What does prove a claim is to quote a verse that actually says what you clalim.

Can you do that? You haven't, so far.

 

[Copperhead]

I think many who have difficultly usually have a tough time seen the difference between Justification and Sanctification. Once they get a handle on that, most of this stuff falls into place.

 

[BCsenior]

I think many who have difficultly usually have a tough time seen the difference between Justification and Sanctification. Once they get a handle on that, most of this stuff falls into place.

Would you care to try to get a handle on these passages, and fall everything into its' proper place?
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

 

[FreeGrace2]

Would you care to try to get a handle on these passages, and fall everything into its' proper place?
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

I have responded to and challenged your posts in #123, 126, 130 and 131.

How would you like me to understand your lack of any responses?

 

[Copperhead]

Would you care to try to get a handle on these passages, and fall everything into its' proper place?
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Read them all, including the additions to the Word someone stuck in a few places. Did not change my belief one bit. It is Messiah who justifies those who place their trust in Him. All else becomes a works righteousness gig.

Keep in mind, the prodigal Son never lost his sonship.

 

[JAYPT]

I have responded to and challenged your posts in #123, 126, 130 and 131.

How would you like me to understand your lack of any responses?

He doesnt have an answer, I challenged him prior and he ran. There is no basis for the fear he is trying to spread.

 

[BCsenior]

Keep in mind, the prodigal Son never lost his sonship.

Keep in mind, the prodigal son repented
and thus was forgiven.

 

[BCsenior]

All BACs who are habitual (unrepentant) sinners ...
the ones who are deceived into believing they still
remain in Christ ... MUST REPENT and get off the
broad road to hell and get on the narrow path to heaven!

Let's focus our attention on righteousness today

Several don't like NT verses which are quoted,
so I'll oblige them by removing the quotation marks:

Those who practice righteousness are righteous
just as He is righteous ... 1 John 3:7

Those who belong to Satan most probably
also prefer double negatives:
The children of the Devil are obvious:
whoever does NOT practice righteousness
is NOT of God ... 1 John 3:10

For those who refuse to work along with God:
Whoever fears Him and works righteousness
is accepted by Him ... Acts 10:35

For those who need to know how to live:
We who have died to sins should live for
righteousness (for practicing it) ... 1 Peter 2:24

For those who love to pursue sin:
Pursue righteousness and a godly life ... 1 Tim 6:11

For those who do NOT obey God:
Choose to obey God, which leads to
righteous living ... Romans 6:16

You would never know it in some circles, but ...
All Scripture is profitable for instruction
in righteousness ... 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[BCsenior]

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among
the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire.
50 There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Some have been to hell and seen some "believers"
in hell, and some "believers" in outer darkness!
These were NOT doing the will of the Father,
but were practicing lawlessness (wickedness)
instead of practicing righteousness!

For the habitual unrepentant sinners among us ...
it's not too late to repent and get on the narrow path!

 

[CaspianSails]

Your security is in following the teachings of Christ. Which are not easy teachings. We neglect some of those teachings to our spiritual peril and lack of growth. Don't rely on teachings of man or interpretations or sects or doctrine or notions. Believe in Christ, die to self, live for Christ and others, practice the fruits of the Spirit, be obedient, root sin out of your life by the power of the Holy Spirit in you. In other words, die to self, live for Christ as I started with. Read the Gospels, follow Christs example.