Calvinism - Total Depravity Question

[JAYPT]

I agree we are perfectly righteous, but that judgment is not made on the basis of anything in us. We are perfectly righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ to our account. Our justification is not at all based on our regeneration or sanctification. Do you know what these things mean?

Absolutely I know what these things mean, do you know what sanctification means? It means, set apart, either you are or you arent, same with holy, either you are or you arent. There is NO middle ground. I am also NOT saying that this is by our effort but solely on the FINISHED work of Jesus.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Christians are saints. They are also sinners.

They are saints who sometimes sin.

When you see that you are a saint, you recognize that sin is a greater trespass against God in this state.

Whereas if you see yourself as a sinner, you see sin as your nature, excusable and not as great a trespass.

When we think of ourselves as Saints, its better for us...

 

[Tree of Life]

Right, so you cant be both, you are either sinner or in Christ, you are not both.

If you don't understand how we can be both then I think you'll be very confused about Christianity.

 

[Tree of Life]

Absolutely I know what these things mean, do you know what sanctification means? It means, set apart, either you are or you arent, same with holy, either you are or you arent. There is NO middle ground. I am also NOT saying that this is by our effort but solely on the FINISHED work of Jesus.

I think you should keep studying.

 

[Tree of Life]

They are saints who sometimes sin.

When you see that you are a saint, you recognize that sin is a greater trespass against God in this state.

Whereas if you see yourself as a sinner, you see sin as your nature, excusable and not as great a trespass.

When we think of ourselves as Saints, its better for us...

Sin is never excusable. Not even for the unregenerate.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sin is never excusable. Not even for the unregenerate.

So why does it bother you to realize you are a saint, set apart to God for His purpose.

 

[Tree of Life]

So why does it bother you to realize you are a saint, set apart to God for His purpose.

It doesn't bother me at all. We ought to affirm that we are saints.

 

[JAYPT]

I think you should keep studying.

I need to ask a question, why is it when a person is proven wrong here, they instantly jump to making it personal? You have answered very little of the points I put out and scriptures I cite yet you attack me?

 

[Tree of Life]

I need to ask a question, why is it when a person is proven wrong here, they instantly jump to making it personal? You have answered very little of the points I put out and scriptures I cite yet you attack me?

I'm sorry that you view that as an attack.

 

[Hazelelponi]

... deleted... not sure my sense of humor would be understood.

 

[JAYPT]

I'm sorry that you view that as an attack.

Absolutely it is, telling me that I need to study more is telling me you know everything and I know nothing.

 

[Tree of Life]

Absolutely it is, telling me that I need to study more is telling me you know everything and I know nothing.

That's a strange way to take it.

 

[JAYPT]

That's a strange way to take it.

Yet you dont explain yourself or apologize. Its ok I forgive you.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yet you dont explain yourself or apologize. Its ok I forgive you.

Thanks buddy.

 

[JAYPT]

1 Corinthians 6:9-12
Galatians 4:7
Ephesians 2:6
Colossians 2:10
Colossians 2"13-14
Colossians 3:3
Hebrews 10:10
Hebrews 10:14
Romans 5:8-9
Romans 6:4
Romans 6:6
Romans 6:11
Romans 6:17


And on and on and on. All of these are passages which clearly show the old is gone and the new has come.

 

[JAYPT]

Anyways, its not what you say about me that makes my identity, but what Christ thinks, and in Hebrews 10:14 he says that by one offering he has perfected me for all time (past tense). Its a done a deal, a forgiven saint. Thats my rest. Trusting that what Christ says about me is true.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Anyways, its not what you say about me that makes my identity, but what Christ thinks, and in Hebrews 10:14 he says that by one offering he has perfected me for all time (past tense). Its a done a deal, a forgiven saint. Thats my rest. Trusting that what Christ says about me is true.

Its okay. At any rate what the brother said here was correct..

Christians are indeed saints. But this does not mean that they are not also sinners. The guilt of our sins does not count against us because we are in Christ. And we have broken with our sin nature such that we are no longer bound to sin. But Christians are still inclined to sin and they still do sin. In this sense they are sinners who need a savior. But since they have a savior they are also saints.

Simul Justus Et Pecator

It's just a different way to say that Christians are saints who sometimes sin.

He was nitpicking where I said nowhere does the Bible call a saved person a "sinner", but often nitpicking is good, because it leads to a well balanced thought process concerning what our Lord is saying to us through the written word.

And he is correct in that the Bible uses sinner as much in the present tense as it is past tense.

It helps to see this point.



None of us are perfected (complete) this side of heaven though..

At any rate, it's all good.

...

You are correct. I was incorrect in how I worded myself.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Total Depravity is a position on the effects of the fall. Fallen man is corrupt in every part of his being - including his thinking, desiring, and moral abilities. He cannot therefore freely choose God and is in need of God to regenerate his heart before he can respond to God.

A person who has been regenerated by the Spirit is in a restored condition. They are still fallen creatures who live in a fallen world, but they have been given a new heart. Regenerate people still have the remnants of the fallen nature within them but they are no longer identified with it and they are distinct from it. It is a reality that is passing away. Yet the struggle against "the flesh" is a lifelong struggle and Christians will battle every day to avoid sin, recognize latent sin, and repent on a deeper and deeper level.

How God views a person who is in Christ is another question. Because we are justified in Christ, our status before God is "righteous". Even though we are imperfect and sinful in our being, God views us through the lens of Christ and accepts us as perfectly righteous in his sight and treats us as such. This is the good news of the gospel.

Then, OSAS?

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is called the power of sin, it is not you, it is attached to you. Romans says so.

Is your interpretation of Romans 7 what all Calvinists are taught?

 

[ViaCrucis]

How does grace affect us sinning?

"Where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more." In Greek it's more literally, "Where sin abounded, grace super-abounded." (ὑπερπερισσεύω, hyperperisseuo, "super-abound"). The Law caused the abounding of sin because man in his sin is helpless and the Law condemns him; but wherever sin abounded (such as where the Law caused an abounding of sin), grace super-abounded, being much greater than sin, so much so that all of us who were dead in our sins, condemned under the Law, have been saved by the grace of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, freely.

Therefore we can be confident that when we fall, God is there through His Gospel to comfort us with the forgiveness and mercy He has for us through Christ our Lord who gave Himself for us. For wherever sin abounds, the grace of God abounds all the more, it super-abounds.

-CryptoLutheran