What Would Evidence For God Be Like?

[bhsmte]

I seek out these debates because I crave intellectual challenge and I don’t get it from my work or my home life. I choose Christianity as a topic because as a former devout SDA I’m familiar with it and I know what it took to persuade me out of it, so I feel that I can discuss it confidently in an adversarial setting. At my worst this means making sport of crackpots and at my best it means introducing myself to new philosophical concepts and even changing my mind. After all, I started out as a Christian here.

I am not bothered by the concrete threats of Christianity or any other religions, but over the past few years I’ve learned that there’s plenty of solid moral and emotional guidance as well as abstract metaphorical truths to be found therein so I’m less apt to throw the baby out with the bath water these days. I know next to nothing about Hinduism but what you say sounds promising so I’ll have to check it out.

I always get a kick out of the old; why are you here questions?

From my experience, this often happens, when certain folks feel threatened by your position and have run out of responses, based on the merits.

 

[HitchSlap]

What would evidence for the existence of this God be like?

At least something.

 

[gaara4158]

I always get a kick out of the old; why are you here questions?

From my experience, this often happens, when certain folks feel threatened by your position and have run out of responses, based on the merits.

It usually pops up as its own topic, perhaps from an exasperated theist who keeps getting stumped in other threads. I can’t say I’ve seen it pop up for that reason in mid-conversation, though.

 

[cvanwey]

I back my assertion by the well know evidences of most of the land mass we are on are once merged in deep water, you can find fossils on high mountains

The places where you find fossils, on mountain tops, has to do more-so with plate tectonics. I'm no scientist, but the simple explanation is that when two land masses collide, the end that rises upward used to be submerged under water. So yes, you see fossils on top of Mt. Everest even. However, this happened millions of years ago. I doubt Noah lived millions of years ago This is why I asked you specifically how long ago the flood happened?.?.? You state you don't know. This is fine.

However, you would then need to concede that humans lived, in the intelligent form we have evolved into now, millions of years ago, when Noah boarded the Ark in a flood (millions of years ago). So that all evidence coincides with the age of such fossils found; the ones (YOU) are referencing. The evidence in which (you) state I must also have faith about...

And try to find some peer reviewed paper on there is no global flood. It is not something (for or not for) that can be asserted firmly by science. That is why this argument is mainly a faith issue, If you believe in the Bible, you believe what the Bible says. If you don't, then it can go either ways.

You follow the evidence. And as stated above, when you do, the fossils on mountain tops were deposited millions of years ago, not a few thousand. This would mean that Noah was alive millions of years ago. This alone makes the probably for a Biblical account of a flood claim most probably not feasible...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Come on, the Tao Te Ching is pure obscurantism. It's short and interesting, but you might as well take a Rorschach test.

A Rorschach test? Obscurantism? Well..............you could be right, and since I'm not hear to apologize for Lao Tzu, I guess I can let those comments slide. For now.

As far as I'm aware, though, Taoism isn't theistic. Hinduism, on the other hand, will definitely get you to a Vedic version of the God of the Philosophers.

Yes, that's true. I won't argue with that.

There's a translation of the Bhagavad Gita I read by Eknath Easwaran that spends a fair amount of time making comparisons with Christian thought.

That sounds like a good one. Maybe @gaara4158 would be interested in reading some portions of it with your guidance?

 

[Silmarien]

I always get a kick out of the old; why are you here questions?

From my experience, this often happens, when certain folks feel threatened by your position and have run out of responses, based on the merits.

I always get a kick out of the old; ignoring context entirely responses.

Gaara asked: "It's possible I'm just horribly ignorant and I should hurry up and figure it out, but it's also possible God' just not there. What am I supposed to do?"

I was not sure if he was asking that rhetorically or genuinely asking for advice, so I wanted to know whether he found this stuff existentially threatening or whether it was more of a hypothetical question. It seems to have been more hypothetical, so I think my original recommendation of studying Hinduism is appropriate. If there were deeper existential issues, though, I'd have had additional advice.

Not sure why anyone would be reading this whole exchange as adversarial.

 

[Silmarien]

A Rorschach test? Obscurantism? Well..............you could be right, and since I'm not hear to apologize for Lao Tzu, I guess I can let those comments slide. For now.

It is pure obscurantism! It was also the first religion I took seriously, so I'm kind of fond of it, but that was back in high school so I think the fact that it was intentionally paradoxical is what I liked about it.

That sounds like a good one. Maybe @gaara4158 would be interested in reading some portions of it with your guidance?

I mean, I would just read the whole thing. It's not that long and that particular translation has tons of guidance from an actual expert in Hinduism. (Actually, looking at his page on Wikipedia, he was a Hindu spiritual teacher who had gone to a Catholic college. That explains some of the Christian-Hindu compare and contrast going on in his notes. I think they're very helpful for Westerners.)

I've read his translation of the major Upanishads also. Really neat stuff and again, not as long as you'd think.

 

[dcalling]

You didn't show me any reason to think the e-meter doesn't work. You said to Google it. I did. I didn't find anything that proves it doesn't work.

Here's the Scientologist claim: the E-Meter detects and assists in the removal of spiritual trauma in the hands of a skilled auditor. So tell me, how exactly you prove the non-existence of "spiritual trauma" or the E-Meter's ability to detect and remove it in the hands of a skilled auditor. "Spiritual trauma" is far too nebulous of a concept to nail down to even talk about. That's why their claims are unfalsifiable. If "spiritual trauma" is made up garbage, you can't show me it not existing. If it's real, you can't know enough about it to tell me where it should be but isn't.

While you're doing that, think about this. Even if you could prove with 100% certainty that the E-Meter is bogus, does that prove that Scientology is bogus?

Wait, before we go on, do you mean if you are 100% certain that e-meter is bogus (which is a central part of scientology), you still don't believe scientology is bogus?

 

[dcalling]

The places where you find fossils, on mountain tops, has to do more-so with plate tectonics. I'm no scientist, but the simple explanation is that when two land masses collide, the end that rises upward used to be submerged under water. So yes, you see fossils on top of Mt. Everest even. However, this happened millions of years ago. I doubt Noah lived millions of years ago This is why I asked you specifically how long ago the flood happened?.?.? You state you don't know. This is fine.

However, you would then need to concede that humans lived, in the intelligent form we have evolved into now, millions of years ago, when Noah boarded the Ark in a flood (millions of years ago). So that all evidence coincides with the age of such fossils found; the ones (YOU) are referencing. The evidence in which (you) state I must also have faith about...



You follow the evidence. And as stated above, when you do, the fossils on mountain tops were deposited millions of years ago, not a few thousand. This would mean that Noah was alive millions of years ago. This alone makes the probably for a Biblical account of a flood claim most probably not feasible...

That is the part you and me differ. How do you verify that those fossiles are indeed caused by tectonic plate moving and not by a flood (global or local)?

And, how do you know if those happened millions of years ago and not billions of years ago? I can understand why you doubt that Noah lived millions of years ago, but he could of, is there any evidence that Noah didn't live millions of years ago?

And last, I don't believe we evolved into our form. I believe we de-evolved into our form, from perfect DNA at time of creation (that can do close kin marriage), gradually degraded into our current form, that close marriage will very likely have bad genes collide and manifest.

 

[Moral Orel]

Wait, before we go on, do you mean if you are 100% certain that e-meter is bogus (which is a central part of scientology), you still don't believe scientology is bogus?

I never said anything about what I believe. I don't believe anything about their "religion". All I've said is that proving the E-Meter is bogus, which I still don't think you can do, doesn't prove that all the other Woo that goes along with it is bogus.

The E-Meter may be central to how the "religion" works, but I don't see it as central to what they believe. If they believe that they have a way to scientifically detect engrams, and they're wrong, it doesn't have an effect on whether they're right that engrams are real or not.

But let's get on with it. Let's see you show proof that a skilled Scientologist auditor can't use the E-Meter to detect engrams.

 

[cvanwey]

And, how do you know if those happened millions of years ago and not billions of years ago? I can understand why you doubt that Noah lived millions of years ago, but he could of, is there any evidence that Noah didn't live millions of years ago?

Homo sapiens have only been around for about 200,000 years. Noah would have had to be a homo sapien. The fossils on mountain tops are dated much older - (millions of years).

You now have a huge disparity...

Noah would have needed to (pre-date) these mountain top fossils. The oldest Noah could be is ~200K years ago. And yet all these fossils are millions of years old.

Please explain?????

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I always get a kick out of the old; why are you here questions?

From my experience, this often happens, when certain folks feel threatened by your position and have run out of responses, based on the merits.

...yeah, this may be the case; in fact, I got this kind of response from skeptics and atheists over on ex-Christian.net. They wanted to know "why was I there," and maybe for the reason they were afraid I had come onto their website with an agenda to challenge them, in the hope of drawing them back to Christianity rather than to just "chat."

Fortunately, I'm not naive enough to think that ANY skeptics or atheists would come onto CF with an agenda to try to ruin Christian faith and draw us away. No, I know that you're all just "here to chat." Right?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Come on, the Tao Te Ching is pure obscurantism. It's short and interesting, but you might as well take a Rorschach test.

As far as I'm aware, though, Taoism isn't theistic. Hinduism, on the other hand, will definitely get you to a Vedic version of the God of the Philosophers. There's a translation of the Bhagavad Gita I read by Eknath Easwaran that spends a fair amount of time making comparisons with Christian thought.

His sounds like an interesting translation. I have the BG by Swami Prahavananda & Christopher Isherwood and the book, A Source book in Indian Philosophy, by Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Charles A. Moore. The latter was one of my texts in my Eastern Philosophy class.

But, hey. If you'd like to choose a section for us to read sometime and to discuss, just let me know.

 

[Moral Orel]

Fortunately, I'm not naive enough to think that ANY skeptics or atheists would come onto CF with an agenda to try to ruin Christian faith and draw us away. No, I know that you're all just "here to chat." Right?

If there are any atheists/skeptics here who think they're going to ruin people's faith, they're deluded. You know I'm here to argue for sport and crack the occasional joke. And after spending a lot of time arguing and lurking in the Apologetics, Politics, and Science sections over the years, it's pretty clear that no one changes their mind about anything.

 

[dcalling]

I never said anything about what I believe. I don't believe anything about their "religion". All I've said is that proving the E-Meter is bogus, which I still don't think you can do, doesn't prove that all the other Woo that goes along with it is bogus.

The E-Meter may be central to how the "religion" works, but I don't see it as central to what they believe. If they believe that they have a way to scientifically detect engrams, and they're wrong, it doesn't have an effect on whether they're right that engrams are real or not.

But let's get on with it. Let's see you show proof that a skilled Scientologist auditor can't use the E-Meter to detect engrams.

It is one thing about preaching a message from God, or a story, or a legend of any sort, which is unfalsible. It is totally another thing about using a device, with a known circuit, that people can experiment in the labs. And read how they use the device, and how people have to use hand lubricants to "archive" better status (by changing their body's resistance to electricity).

If you can't understand the above then there is not much I can say

 

[dcalling]

Homo sapiens have only been around for about 200,000 years. Noah would have had to be a homo sapien. The fossils on mountain tops are dated much older - (millions of years).

You now have a huge disparity...

Noah would have needed to (pre-date) these mountain top fossils. The oldest Noah could be is ~200K years ago. And yet all these fossils are millions of years old.

Please explain?????

This gets back to the method of dating. If you can't find something's fossil in certain layer or carbon dated, does it mean that thing does not exist prior to certain period? Just google and you will constantly see news about "XXX discovery could rewrite the history of XXX".

Another question is how do you know your dating method is accurate? if something is deeper does it always mean it is older? Howabout carbon dating? do you know what assumption carbon dating uses?

 

[Moral Orel]

It is one thing about preaching a message from God, or a story, or a legend of any sort, which is unfalsible. It is totally another thing about using a device, with a known circuit, that people can experiment in the labs. And read how they use the device, and how people have to use hand lubricants to "archive" better status (by changing their body's resistance to electricity).

If you can't understand the above then there is not much I can say

That's what I thought, you got nothing. See, you've got your unfalsifiable Woo, the "Spiritual Trauma", and then you've got your very mundane, testable E-Meter. How does the unfalsifiable Woo manifest itself in the natural world? Well, only a "skilled auditor" really knows. The E-Meter is like a crystal ball. You can't prove that a "psychic" doesn't see your future in that globe of glass either.

 

[dcalling]

That's what I thought, you got nothing. See, you've got your unfalsifiable Woo, the "Spiritual Trauma", and then you've got your very mundane, testable E-Meter. How does the unfalsifiable Woo manifest itself in the natural world? Well, only a "skilled auditor" really knows. The E-Meter is like a crystal ball. You can't prove that a "psychic" doesn't see your future in that globe of glass either.

Not really. I can see with my own eye (and be very firm) that we are all sinners, that we can't save ourselves, and that the teaching of the Bible, to Love God with all and Love your neighbor as yourself is the best virtual we can have.

And I can with certainity claim the e-meter method is a hoax since the circuit is known, and that we can test what our body's resistance is under different conditions in general.

The above is the Can Dos.

On the other hand, I can't verify (but can only trust in the scriptures) that Adam/Noah actually exists.
And I can't verify if some alien did what the scientilogiest said they did.

However you go from things that can be verified, and it is very easy to spot frauds in most cases, given their claims (especially claims that are tied to testable physical evidences).

In a nutshell, the e-meter is been claimed to be a crystal ball, but the physical properties of it and the human body are well know, the testing methods is very testable and fallible.

And by the way, all of this is for your quote that

You can't prove that Scientology isn't true either. So what?

Do you agree we can put this aside now?

 

[cvanwey]

This gets back to the method of dating. If you can't find something's fossil in certain layer or carbon dated, does it mean that thing does not exist prior to certain period? Just google and you will constantly see news about "XXX discovery could rewrite the history of XXX".

Another question is how do you know your dating method is accurate? if something is deeper does it always mean it is older? Howabout carbon dating? do you know what assumption carbon dating uses?

You stated fossils are found on mountain tops. I agreed. They are not buried deep. Many methods exist for dating fossils. Carbon is only one method. Scientists use many, and cross reference them against one another. Carbon dating does not work on items deemed millions of years old, as the half life of carbon weakens after about 60K years. Scientists already have known this, and do not use such methods for older fossils. Many other methods are used.

But you have completely avoided my question...

If homo sapiens have only been around for roughly 200K years, and the fossils found on Mt. Everest are millions of years old, how would you explain as such?

Noah would have to be older than the fossils left on top of Mt. Everest. But if the fossils are much older than the earliest homo sapiens, how do you reconcile such a conclusion?.?.?

 

[Moral Orel]

In a nutshell, the e-meter is been claimed to be a crystal ball, but the physical properties of it and the human body are well know, the testing methods is very testable and fallible.

The physical properties of crystal balls are well known too, but you can't prove them wrong either.

Why do you think that "Spiritual Trauma" doesn't manifest itself in reality through electrical currents in our bodies?