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What Would Evidence For God Be Like?

Silmarien

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I see where you're going with this concerning attitudes, and to an extent I think you're right. To resist opposing views as though they threaten your very flesh and bone is an innate human tendency, so it's unsurprising to see it manifesting on both sides here through smugness and superiority complexes. I disagree that atheists don't have any moral reason to rise above this kind of mentality and I disagree that I've merely declared my position reasonable without really being open to other options.

You kind of did, though. We were talking about the scenario in which theism is true and salvation requires belief, and you seem to be saying that if this is the case, then God apparently doesn't value reasonability. If you're starting from the assumption that you did things correctly and that God set you up to fail, instead of accepting that maybe you were the one who went wrong somewhere, that is where theological rebellion comes into the picture.

There's this modern focus on autonomy, on not allowing anyone to have authority over us--I think it's interesting, since I've spoken with anti-theists here who are so deeply into that sort of rebellion that they don't seem capable of even wrapping their heads around hypotheticals. They'll mock the idea that someone can choose hell, but the almost fanatical resistance is self-evident.

It's one of the things that challenge my sympathies towards universalism, since if hell is self-worship, some people may well eternally choose it. (Granted, this is a huge problem within Christianity too--the sort of hatred and self-aggrandization I see coming out of certain sections of it are staggering.)

They're right, as long as they're imbuing God with unfalsifiable characteristics. When that's the case, asking me to believe is asking me to abandon a logic and evidence-based epistemology in favor of an epistemology that isn't, which - as far as I can tell - far more easily leads to nonsensical, false beliefs than the former.

This obsession with falsification is weird to me. It doesn't make much sense outside of the laboratory, so I don't know why people think it's rational to apply it liberally to literally every question out there. The most important assumption of all, the existence of other minds, is unfalsifiable, but most people don't toss it out of their epistemology. We already have to abandon a purely empirical epistemology even to function in society, so we might as well accept that falsification is not the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

As for abandoning a logical epistemology, nobody's asking that. You're welcome to dig deeper into the intellectual tradition, if you want. It's pretty strongly based in logical and rational concerns.

I will agree that this line of reasoning can be considered a form of rebellion, but it's not against God directly, or even the concept of a god. It's a rebellion against cultural norms that exempt certain convictions from intellectual critique, allowing public policy to be dictated by people's beliefs that are ultimately founded on neither logic nor evidence. I find this entirely too dangerous and historically damaging to go along with it.

We're living in an era where people are submitting liberal democracy to intellectual critique, questioning the moral foundations of equality, and electing populist fascist politicians into power across the world. I would be careful stressing the rebellion against culture convictions--it can very easily lead to the Nietzschean rejection of equality as desirable, and without that, good luck getting to the sort of public policy you want on logic and evidence alone. (You can get to eugenics easily enough, though, so score one for science.)
 
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dcalling

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Before I even attempt to respond to such assertions made, lets instead first conclude the final resolve, etc, of the other poster's 'gist'; by starting with a simple question....

If the one true God was known to humans, in a way in which was undeniable, irrefutable, incontestable, like many other assertions very few humans on this planet reject, do you actually think the term 'atheist' would even be a 'thing'???


Most likely not. Yes, we might be still be dealing with a very small minority group/population, like the 'Flat Earthers' and the like, but I think you know what I'm driving at...

It seems to boil down to two key components...

1. 'Knowledge' of existence
2. Deciding whether or not to comply with this 'knowledge'.

Everyone would 'know' that not only God exists, but WHICH God is the REAL God. This would fulfill the first step. Step 2 would be a whole other ball of wax.

We currently have millions/billions who earnestly either doubt, or flat out reject the claims for the existence of any asserted God. And yet, all we are left with to confirm such assertions are anecdotal ancient stories from antiquity (i.e.) the Bible or other claimed holy texts, and also daily unconfirmed and unsubstantiated anecdotal claims of today. Or better yet, philosophical arguments...

So again, going back to a previous point I made, in which you either glossed directly over, or other, I will ask again...

If you are asserting that such stories told are 'fact', (i.e.) the parting of the sea by god, but in the very same book, asserted stories are also told, which are falsifiable, and in fact appear possibly false, WHY still lend such credence to the unfalsifiable claimed events? Because remember, the Bible asserts it's ALL true, NOT just the ones you decide to hand select...

So instead of asserting that 'the next time God comes, it will be to invoke His final wrath', lets first explore if the assertions made about this very God actually happened to begin with...


There are things that you can't verify (i.e. parting of red sea, the big ban), things that are hard to explain (what's a quantum leap, how quantum tangling might comunicate over light speed), but there are other things that are easy to grasp, i.e. is there any religion that claim that you can trust God enough to love others as yourself? Is there any religion that claim you should pray for your enemies? or that have a consistent message in books that span thousands of years?
 
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cloudyday2

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There's this modern focus on autonomy, on not allowing anyone to have authority over us--I think it's interesting, since I've spoken with anti-theists here who are so deeply into that sort of rebellion that they don't seem capable of even wrapping their heads around hypotheticals. They'll mock the idea that someone can choose hell, but the almost fanatical resistance is self-evident.
There is a behavioral problem called ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). The person with ODD opposes any instruction even if compliance obviously benefits that person. Here is the link:
Oppositional defiant disorder - Wikipedia

God may see us humans as suffering from ODD. God tells us things we can do to make the world better for everybody but humans against our own best interests oppose any instruction. If this is the case, then God must be a frustrated parent. LOL

Of course this assumes that God exists and that his instructions are clear to a person with a receptive attitude. That isn't necessarily obvious.
 
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cvanwey

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There are things that you can't verify (i.e. parting of red sea, the big ban), things that are hard to explain (what's a quantum leap, how quantum tangling might comunicate over light speed), but there are other things that are easy to grasp,

Maybe you missed this in my response, where I stated in post #140:


'you are asserting that such stories told are 'fact', (i.e.) the parting of the sea by god, but in the very same book, asserted stories are also told, which are falsifiable, and in fact appear possibly false, WHY still lend such credence to the unfalsifiable claimed events? Because remember, the Bible asserts it's ALL true, NOT just the ones you decide to hand select...'

Unfalsifiable Biblical things: (i.e.) one off anecdotal events claimed in history, such as seeing a resurrection 2K years ago, God parting the sea, etc...

Falsifiable Biblical claims: (i.e.) things we may later be able to test, as evidence would be left behind, such as a flood claim, or an Exodus account of claimed 2 million Jews, etc...

If the book claims all of them happened, but some of the big claims, in which we have means to test, appear to not have happened, why lend credence to the ones which you cannot test (the unfalsifiable ones), if the book claims they ALL happened? Especially when the unfalsifiable ones appear even more improbable than the ones we can test???


is there any religion that claim that you can trust God enough to love others as yourself?

Yes, Conficius' Golden Rule, which predates Jesus' rendition.

Is there any religion that claim you should pray for your enemies?

If I found some, would this even matter? I doubt it.

or that have a consistent message in books that span thousands of years?

Are you claiming the OT and the NT are consistent? God appears to demonstrate that he is at least 'okay' with actions in which I'm sure you would never seem to allow, as He even appeared to have sanctioned them in one point in history. The claimed and asserted messages from God appear to at least condone actions in which do not seem to comply with the very essence of Jesus' told later message of the 'Golden Rule' - (the very rule you sited as a point in your case). This appears very much inconsistent.

I'm not questioning the 'moral' implications. I'm pointing them out for the apparent lack in consistency.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Before I even attempt to respond to such assertions made, lets instead first conclude the final resolve, etc, of the other poster's 'gist'; by starting with a simple question....

If the one true God was known to humans, in a way in which was undeniable, irrefutable, incontestable, like many other assertions very few humans on this planet reject, do you actually think the term 'atheist' would even be a 'thing'???


Most likely not. Yes, we might be still be dealing with a very small minority group/population, like the 'Flat Earthers' and the like, but I think you know what I'm driving at...

It seems to boil down to two key components...

1. 'Knowledge' of existence
2. Deciding whether or not to comply with this 'knowledge'.

Everyone would 'know' that not only God exists, but WHICH God is the REAL God. This would fulfill the first step. Step 2 would be a whole other ball of wax.

We currently have millions/billions who earnestly either doubt, or flat out reject the claims for the existence of any asserted God. And yet, all we are left with to confirm such assertions are anecdotal ancient stories from antiquity (i.e.) the Bible or other claimed holy texts, and also daily unconfirmed and unsubstantiated anecdotal claims of today. Or better yet, philosophical arguments...

So again, going back to a previous point I made, in which you either glossed directly over, or other, I will ask again...

If you are asserting that such stories told are 'fact', (i.e.) the parting of the sea by god, but in the very same book, asserted stories are also told, which are falsifiable, and in fact appear possibly false, WHY still lend such credence to the unfalsifiable claimed events? Because remember, the Bible asserts it's ALL true, NOT just the ones you decide to hand select...

So instead of asserting that 'the next time God comes, it will be to invoke His final wrath', lets first explore if the assertions made about this very God actually happened to begin with...


Since I'm more or less a Critical Realist with Existential leanings who subscribes to Philosophical Hermeneutics and who thinks that much of the historical essence of the Bible doesn't provide any of us with direct motivation for relying upon a Foundationalist or Evidentialist epistemology, I'm probably the wrong person to engage with in this discussion, cvanwey.

However, I will leave you with the following question: Is there any reason I shouldn't begin from an existential point of view in assessing the relevance of the Bible to my own life and choices?

Here's the point: I'm just as stuck in my existential angst on this side of Lessing's Ditch as you are, so we both have to decide to jump---or not---based upon whatever reasoning we can come to through our individual lives, experience, understanding and research. So, if your conceptual [set] of these things is different than mine and you choose not to do the adventurous thing that I am choosing to do every existential day I wake up, then I'm not going to blast you for telling me that you don't want to make the jump....... I'm sure Pascal and Kierkegaard would be disappointed to hear that you feel you can't jump, but the Kantian in me would understand. :rolleyes:
 
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dcalling

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Maybe you missed this in my response, where I stated in post #140:

'you are asserting that such stories told are 'fact', (i.e.) the parting of the sea by god, but in the very same book, asserted stories are also told, which are falsifiable, and in fact appear possibly false, WHY still lend such credence to the unfalsifiable claimed events? Because remember, the Bible asserts it's ALL true, NOT just the ones you decide to hand select...'

Unfalsifiable Biblical things: (i.e.) one off anecdotal events claimed in history, such as seeing a resurrection 2K years ago, God parting the sea, etc...

Falsifiable Biblical claims: (i.e.) things we may later be able to test, as evidence would be left behind, such as a flood claim, or an Exodus account of claimed 2 million Jews, etc...

If the book claims all of them happened, but some of the big claims, in which we have means to test, appear to not have happened, why lend credence to the ones which you cannot test (the unfalsifiable ones), if the book claims they ALL happened? Especially when the unfalsifiable ones appear even more improbable than the ones we can test???



The issue is can you prove that what Bible claimed to has happened didn't happen? Is there any thing the Bible claimed to has happened you can assert with 100% certainty that didn't happen?

Yes, Conficius' Golden Rule, which predates Jesus' rendition.


That is up to debate, since the same rule appears in lev 19.18. Later Jewish rabbis reduced it to "don't do to others what you don't want to do to yourself" since they realize the love as yourself part is not achievable by humans, i.e. we all broke God's commandments.

If I found some, would this even matter? I doubt it.


But can you find any that is earlier than the Bible?

Are you claiming the OT and the NT are consistent? God appears to demonstrate that he is at least 'okay' with actions in which I'm sure you would never seem to allow, as He even appeared to have sanctioned them in one point in history. The claimed and asserted messages from God appear to at least condone actions in which do not seem to comply with the very essence of Jesus' told later message of the 'Golden Rule' - (the very rule you sited as a point in your case). This appears very much inconsistent.

I'm not questioning the 'moral' implications. I'm pointing them out for the apparent lack in consistency.

It is very consistent. As the Bible is not a humanist book, it is a book from someone much wiser and powerful then all of us. Before the "Love your neighbor" part is to love God with all, so obey God is even more important than love your neighbor.

That said, the book are very consistent, as when God is not directly involved, what we need to do is very consistent, i.e. Love God, love your neighbor, if your enemy's stuff is lost, return to him.... As to God, no matter the old or new testment all stated He does what ever he wants to his creations.
 
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cloudyday2

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This is a digression, but I wanted to mention a couple of things that people might find interesting.

Falsifiable Biblical claims: (i.e.) things we may later be able to test, as evidence would be left behind, such as a flood claim, or an Exodus account of claimed 2 million Jews, etc...
The Hebrew word for "1000" ("eleph") originally meant "chief" or "head of family". So if the average Hebrew family was 5 then the number of people would shrink from 2,000,000 to 10,000. Of course 10,000 would still be a huge force rivaling the largest armies of that time, but at least 10,000 is getting closer to reality.

Yes, Conficius' Golden Rule, which predates Jesus' rendition.
The Golden Rule also exists in Leviticus 19:18
 
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Moral Orel

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The issue is can you prove that what Bible claimed to has happened didn't happen? Is there any thing the Bible claimed to has happened you can assert with 100% certainty that didn't happen?
You can't prove that Scientology isn't true either. So what?
 
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dcalling

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You can't prove that Scientology isn't true either. So what?

Just look at Scientology doctrine, and the operation and of the e-meter. Of course even though those are fairly obvious, they are not the determinate factor. The real fault point is they believe humans are good and can save (or awaken, not sure how to word it) themselves.
 
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Moral Orel

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Just look at Scientology doctrine, and the operation and of the e-meter. Of course even though those are fairly obvious, they are not the determinate factor. The real fault point is they believe humans are good and can save (or awaken, not sure how to word it) themselves.
Huh? "Just look" is your proof that the doctrine is false? You can't prove that at all. You don't know that Space Lord Xenu didn't drop a bunch of aliens in spaceships that looked just like modern DC-8 airplanes into volcanos on Earth a billion years ago then detonate those volcanos with nuclear bombs and then those aliens possessed the inhabitants of the planet to cause all sorts of ailments and maladies *this is what Scientologists actually believe*. You don't know, and you can't prove it. Show me evidence it's false. Show me evidence of Thetans not existing. Show me evidence that Space Lord Xenu never existed.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Just look at Scientology doctrine, and the operation and of the e-meter. Of course even though those are fairly obvious, they are not the determinate factor. The real fault point is they believe humans are good and can save (or awaken, not sure how to word it) themselves.

So your proof is that they contradict YOUR doctrine!? This is like arguing about whether the sky is made of rock or spun sugar.
 
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gaara4158

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You kind of did, though. We were talking about the scenario in which theism is true and salvation requires belief, and you seem to be saying that if this is the case, then God apparently doesn't value reasonability. If you're starting from the assumption that you did things correctly and that God set you up to fail, instead of accepting that maybe you were the one who went wrong somewhere, that is where theological rebellion comes into the picture.
To consider that I may have gone wrong somewhere in terms of reasonability is to consider that there is something more reasonable than running empirical evidence through logical reasoning in order to arrive at the closest approximation to reality attainable. This is the best definition of reasonable I’m aware of. I’m open to suggestions as to what a better definition may be, and if I found myself in front of God in the afterlife that’s exactly what I would want to ask him. I’ve considered it, and come to the conclusion that I’m probably not wrong. I don’t recognize that as having been a choice.

You might call this smug or arrogant, and you’re welcome to your opinion, but if we’re discussing whether disbelief can fairly be called rebellious or sinfully negligent in a scenario where a hidden god exists, my answer is soundly no. Even if there were some line of reasoning that could successfully get us to theism, it would take a nonbeliever some time to fully uncover and understand it before they finally believed. During this time of discovery, they would still be a nonbeliever, but until the end would you still call them sinfully negligent? If so, then you are suggesting God values belief as an end by which any means is justified, whether it’s mere credulity, an error, or careful philosophical consideration, and so the ugly traits we observe on both sides of this debate are inconsequential. Negligence, intellectual laziness, and even rebellion are only sinful if they protect the wrong belief. If, on the other hand, you wouldn’t call an earnest nonbeliever sinfully negligent, then it follows that God should not condemn a nonbeliever for not believing as long as their search for truth was earnest, and yet he does. Either way, God’s conditions for salvation are indefensible.

The only way to maintain that disbelief is a sin is to define earnest nonbelievers out of existence, as the presuppositionalists do. I avoid engaging with them because they claim to know what’s in my mind better than I do.

This obsession with falsification is weird to me. It doesn't make much sense outside of the laboratory, so I don't know why people think it's rational to apply it liberally to literally every question out there. The most important assumption of all, the existence of other minds, is unfalsifiable, but most people don't toss it out of their epistemology. We already have to abandon a purely empirical epistemology even to function in society, so we might as well accept that falsification is not the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

As for abandoning a logical epistemology, nobody's asking that. You're welcome to dig deeper into the intellectual tradition, if you want. It's pretty strongly based in logical and rational concerns.
I never said I had an epistemology that gave me all the answers to life, the universe, and everything. My position is that my epistemology is the best I know of to get me to the closest approximation of reality attainable. It does have its limits and there are some things we accept out of practical necessity. I don’t think God is one of them. So for God to place himself squarely outside of anything the epistemology I use for everyday life can detect and outside of the set of fundamental assumptions needed to function as a human is a puzzling move for someone who wants a relationship with me.

As for the intellectual tradition, I dig deeper every day. If I’m wrong here, you can look forward to the day I switch sides again. :)

We're living in an era where people are submitting liberal democracy to intellectual critique, questioning the moral foundations of equality, and electing populist fascist politicians into power across the world. I would be careful stressing the rebellion against culture convictions--it can very easily lead to the Nietzschean rejection of equality as desirable, and without that, good luck getting to the sort of public policy you want on logic and evidence alone. (You can get to eugenics easily enough, though, so score one for science.)
If your argument is that humans are so stupid we’re better off preserving certain outdated traditions because most are incapable of grasping the proper justification of their ethical prescriptions, then you’re just as cynical as I am ;)
 
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cvanwey

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Since I'm more or less a Critical Realist with Existential leanings who subscribes to Philosophical Hermeneutics and who thinks that much of the historical essence of the Bible doesn't provide any of us with direct motivation for relying upon a Foundationalist or Evidentialist epistemology, I'm probably the wrong person to engage with in this discussion, cvanwey.

However, I will leave you with the following question: Is there any reason I shouldn't begin from an existential point of view in assessing the relevance of the Bible to my own life and choices?

Here's the point: I'm just as stuck in my existential angst on this side of Lessing's Ditch as you are, so we both have to decide to jump---or not---based upon whatever reasoning we can come to through our individual lives, experience, understanding and research. So, if your conceptual [set] of these things is different than mine and you choose not to do the adventurous thing that I am choosing to do every existential day I wake up, then I'm not going to blast you for telling me that you don't want to make the jump....... I'm sure Pascal and Kierkegaard would be disappointed to hear that you feel you can't jump, but the Kantian in me would understand. :rolleyes:

Thank you for your response. However, this really addresses nothing in which I brought forth :( Why would I need to 'jump'?

- God appears to thousands 'way back when', in ancient times. But now that we may have means to test, it stops. We are instead now only left with one-off anecdotal testimonials.

- Falsifiable claims are also asserted from the Bible, which appear possibly falsified. And since the book claims all such events were 'given by God', one must ask themselves... If the falsifiable ones are possibly falsified, why lend credibility to the unfalsifiable ones? Especially when the falsified ones are questionable, at best? And also since the book claims total and all truth, not just the ones which you should decide to hand select?


So I will again reiterate...

God could reveal Himself to all, practically ending the term 'atheism'. All in which would be left, is whether or not people would comply to this known reality or not (like a third of the fallen angels, etc...).

The need to 'jump' would be a non sequitur of sorts.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I get your position already. However, this really addresses nothing in which I brought forth :( Why would I need to 'jump'?

- God appears to thousands 'way back when', in ancient times. But now that we may have means to test, it stops. We are instead now only left with one-off anecdotal testimonials.

- Falsifiable claims are also asserted from the Bible, which appear possibly falsified. And since the book claims all such events were 'given by God', one must ask themselves... If the falsifiable ones are possibly falsified, why lend credibility to the unfalsifiable ones? Especially when the falsified ones are questionable, at best? And also since the book claims total and all truth, not just the ones which you should decide to hand select?


So I will again reiterate...

God could reveal Himself to all, practically ending the term 'atheism'. All in which would be left, is whether or not people would comply to this known reality or not (like a third of the fallen angels, etc...).

The need to 'jump' would be a non sequitur of sorts.

What statements or portions in the Bible do you think are thoroughly "falsified" 100%?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, let's start with the 'flood' claim? What is your take?

The way I assess "the Flood Story" as it sits as a narrative within the Bible is to first assess the literature in which this story sits. And to do this, I don't start hermeneutically by assuming that this story is true because it sits in the Bible which is also assumed to be true, but rather I begin by seeing the Bible on the whole as simply a collection of old dusty writings from the past. In the process of assessing the value, essence, meaning, or validity of the Flood Story, I pull out books on the processes of history writing as well as on the Philosophy of History.

So, we find that there's this story about a Flood within the pages of a specific book in the Bible, i.e. Genesis. Our first task is to ask: who wrote Genesis and thereby, the Flood Story? The second question we need to ask is: how did he (or they) compose the narratives of Genesis, including the Flood Story?

The answer to the first question is: we don't really know for sure, but existentially speaking, we can choose to appeal to tradition and hear that Moses had something to do with it. The answer to the second question is: we really don't know 'how' Genesis was composed or from where its narrative motifs were gathered.

The catch is, even if we could come to know that the Flood Story is historical, this knowledge wouldn't be enough to engender faith in our minds and hearts. Could we believe just knowing this? According to Kierkegaard via Lessing, the answer to be expected is: No! More is needed.
 
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Silmarien

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To consider that I may have gone wrong somewhere in terms of reasonability is to consider that there is something more reasonable than running empirical evidence through logical reasoning in order to arrive at the closest approximation to reality attainable. This is the best definition of reasonable I’m aware of.

This presupposes that you have actually run the empirical evidence through logical reasoning in a correct way, unhindered by irrational biases and other considerations. There are good reasons to doubt that this is fully possible at all, so yes, you have automatically gone wrong as soon as you try to reduce any sort of decision making process to some sort of mechanical, easily dissected system. You've taken a flawed conception of human psychology and declared it reasonable.

You might call this smug or arrogant, and you’re welcome to your opinion, but if we’re discussing whether disbelief can fairly be called rebellious or sinfully negligent in a scenario where a hidden god exists, my answer is soundly no. Even if there were some line of reasoning that could successfully get us to theism, it would take a nonbeliever some time to fully uncover and understand it before they finally believed. During this time of discovery, they would still be a nonbeliever, but until the end would you still call them sinfully negligent? If so, then you are suggesting God values belief as an end by which any means is justified, whether it’s mere credulity, an error, or careful philosophical consideration, and so the ugly traits we observe on both sides of this debate are inconsequential. Negligence, intellectual laziness, and even rebellion are only sinful if they protect the wrong belief. If, on the other hand, you wouldn’t call an earnest nonbeliever sinfully negligent, then it follows that God should not condemn a nonbeliever for not believing as long as their search for truth was earnest, and yet he does. Either way, God’s conditions for salvation are indefensible.

The only way to maintain that disbelief is a sin is to define earnest nonbelievers out of existence, as the presuppositionalists do. I avoid engaging with them because they claim to know what’s in my mind better than I do.

You would need to establish what constitutes "sinfully negligent" and why. I will be honest with here: I think your entire epistemology is sinfully negligent, as every important question about reality has been reduced to how well it can be studied, categorized, and ultimately placed under human dominion. I don't think nonbelief is necessarily sinfully negligent in and of itself, but approaching theism in this light, trying to dissect and control it, absolutely is. And the two often go together.

That said, I think you're being far too quick to determine what is and isn't indefensible. You're taking one narrow theological narrative and running with it as if it were the only way of addressing the question. I think I've stated that I lean towards universalism, and it is very possible to maintain that disbelief is a sin there. Disbelief is simply another thing that would need to be healed, and the further you've hardened your heart against God, the more difficult that will be. For those whose atheism has turned into a fullblown hatred of the notion of divine authority, that's unlikely to be very pleasant at all (assuming it's even still possible).

I never said I had an epistemology that gave me all the answers to life, the universe, and everything. My position is that my epistemology is the best I know of to get me to the closest approximation of reality attainable. It does have its limits and there are some things we accept out of practical necessity. I don’t think God is one of them. So for God to place himself squarely outside of anything the epistemology I use for everyday life can detect and outside of the set of fundamental assumptions needed to function as a human is a puzzling move for someone who wants a relationship with me.

See, this strikes me as egoistic. If God wants a relationship, it ought to be on my terms, and if he doesn't jump through the right hoops, obviously he's not there or not interested. You're insisting that God submit to the modern need to control and dominate reality, and there's no reason to expect him to do so and good reason to expect that he won't. (Would it even be good for us if he did?)

If the problem is your epistemology, then it's your epistemology that will eventually have to change. You could ask why God hasn't been pushing you to change it, but who can really say that he hasn't been? A life isn't the sort of thing you're going to be able to fully make sense of until after it's over.

As for the intellectual tradition, I dig deeper every day. If I’m wrong here, you can look forward to the day I switch sides again. :)

The intellectual tradition of theism? Gaara, you're all the way back to "if God exists, why can't I pick up his voice with sonar?" That is honestly the opposite of digging deeper into the intellectual tradition. ^_^

If your argument is that humans are so stupid we’re better off preserving certain outdated traditions because most are incapable of grasping the proper justification of their ethical prescriptions, then you’re just as cynical as I am ;)

Come on, I'm quite possibly the most cynical person here. ^_^ If naturalism is true, I think the most important moral question is whether life is a net good or evil. I say the latter, which would honestly have pretty ugly ramifications on a truly moral public policy. Life is an absurd and cruel system of sacrifice that ought to be extinguished in as humane a manner as possible. (This is the sort of questioning of cultural convictions that you would presumably rather not see carried out en masse.)

For a less extreme example, if someone believes that the goal of public policy ought to be the evolutionary success of the species, then they could very argue that modern medicine has thrown a wrench in things because people who would have once been weeded out of the gene pool are now surviving to reproduce, and that this is a danger that needs genuine correction. Enter eugenics once more.

You cannot get to the justification of morality while ignoring teleology. All ethical reasoning is aimed at some sort of end, and ends are something that the modern scientific picture of reality ignores. Which means that empiricism is not enough to get us to public policy, since you cannot empirically determine which ends are to be favored. If someone wants to implement a dictatorship, they can do so with empirically and logically sound policies.

I don't know what type of outdated traditions you're talking about, though. The argument from public policy came from literally nowhere, and I don't see what it has to do with theism itself, as theists can basically be anywhere on the political spectrum.
 
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cvanwey

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Our first task is to ask: who wrote Genesis and thereby, the Flood Story?

It wouldn't matter who wrote it. Many passages elude to the conclusion or 'reality' that all such text was 'given by God'.


The second question we need to ask is: how did he (or they) compose the narratives of Genesis, including the Flood Story?

Same as above

************

Seems pretty straight forward to me... Genesis mentions a flood, to wipe out humans - (except a select few). To attempt such an overly complicated rationale, or twist, to a seemingly axiomatic narrative, boggles my mind really.

So let me ask another basic question...

If 'hermeneutic interpretation' somehow came to the consensus that the Bible does in fact claim a flood headed by Noah actually happened, is there evidence to support such a tale?
 
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cvanwey

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The Hebrew word for "1000" ("eleph") originally meant "chief" or "head of family". So if the average Hebrew family was 5 then the number of people would shrink from 2,000,000 to 10,000. Of course 10,000 would still be a huge force rivaling the largest armies of that time, but at least 10,000 is getting closer to reality.

The real question is if Jews were actually enslaved in Egypt in this claimed point in history? Outside of the Exodus account, there appears to be a lack in evidence to support as such.

Furthermore, the fact that you point out the language barrier leaves another obvious question...

If a God wanted to relay truth to humans, seems bazaar that God would choose a methodology which is up to interpretation and endless fighting...?


The Golden Rule also exists in Leviticus 19:18

I mentioned Jesus' version. All you are doing, is making a case for the Orthodox Jews ;)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It wouldn't matter who wrote it. Many passages elude to the conclusion or 'reality' that all such text was 'given by God'.
Of course they do----that was the existing paradigm in the ANE in which the writer(s) of the Pentateuch wrote. I mean, it's not like the Bible is the only ancient book with a Flood narrative in its dusty pages. And since Genesis is obviously a narrative taken from secondary sources, it probably shouldn't be seen to be of primary quality----as if it somehow fell directly from the lips of God, Himself. But, if that's what you want to believe based on your singularly ex-fundamentalist background, then I can't stop you from doing so.



Same as above
Yes, same as 'above' in the case of what I've said as well.


************

Seems pretty straight forward to me... Genesis mentions a flood, to wipe out humans - (except a select few). To attempt such an overly complicated rationale, or twist, to a seemingly axiomatic narrative, boggles my mind really.
Then maybe you need to read more widely; perhaps you should take a gander at Kenton L. Sparks scholarship as a starting point to reform and realign your understanding about the nature of what we have in the Bible.

So let me ask another basic question...

If 'hermeneutic interpretation' somehow came to the consensus that the Bible does in fact claim a flood headed by Noah actually happened, is there evidence to support such a tale?
You and your hypotheticals; until such a consensus actually comes about, I see no reason to entertain your question, especially since I've already answered your previous questions about how 'I' approach the Flood Story.

And as I said earlier as well in a previous post, if you find that you can't believe, then so be it.

Now, excuse me, I have some atheistic literature to read and then set on fire.
 
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