The Violent Take it By Force

[Tree of Life]

But the interpretation fits the context perfectly. St John the Baptist, whose way of life and character define the context starting from verse 7, is a living image of someone who did violence to himself as explained above.

I believe the focus is on John's persecution. John is in prison and confused about the fact that Jesus has not yet definitively acted to purify Israel by baptizing them with fire and the Holy Spirit. Wicked Herod still prevails and is able to imprison John. John's faith in Jesus is therefore wavering a little bit. As a response Jesus confirms that he is the Christ and points to the signs, yet he implies that he's going to defy John's expectations when he says: "Blessed is the one who is not offended by me."

Then Jesus turns to the crowds to speak well of John. John is no "reed shaken by the wind" or a man accustomed to comforts. He of all people should understand that the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and to be a Christian means to be persecuted in this age.

That's, at least, how I read it.

 

[topher694]

The bible clearly says our fight is not with people (Eph 6 and others) so this is not talking about physical violence.

Suffers = allows
Violence = forceful, aggressive, bold
Force = grab hold of
John the Baptist said what? - Repent! For the Kingdom of God/Heaven is at hand
Kingdom of heaven = righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17)


From the day you are saved (repent) on, you are allowed to boldly go after and grab hold of your promised righteousness, peace and joy through the Holy Spirit who helps and guides you.

Put it another way: Just because we are saved doesn't mean we have be passive about our faith and becoming more like Christ. This isn't about turning the other cheek when others hurt and use you. It's about not being ashamed of pursing God, even publicly. We live in a day and age where many would like Christians to be quiet about their faith and their testimony and even criticize us for being unchristian if we do so. It's like Jesus knew this would happen. He is giving us permission to be bold and represent His kingdom!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the interpretation fits the context perfectly. St John the Baptist, whose way of life and character define the context starting from verse 7, is a living image of someone who did violence to himself as explained above.

What verse in the Bible again shows John the Baptist doing violence to himself?
I must have missed that one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the focus is on John's persecution. John is in prison and confused about the fact that Jesus has not yet definitively acted to purify Israel by baptizing them with fire and the Holy Spirit. Wicked Herod still prevails and is able to imprison John. John's faith in Jesus is therefore wavering a little bit. As a response Jesus confirms that he is the Christ and points to the signs, yet he implies that he's going to defy John's expectations when he says: "Blessed is the one who is not offended by me."

Then Jesus turns to the crowds to speak well of John. John is no "reed shaken by the wind" or a man accustomed to comforts. He of all people should understand that the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and to be a Christian means to be persecuted in this age.

That's, at least, how I read it.

Right, and the violence done to God's Kingdom at the time of Jesus was with the Pharisees. They tried to take the Kingdom by force. This is very clear to see by their actions and what they said. Those who are violent can also include other religious men who are trying to act in violence as a part of God's Kingdom through out history and those who are yet to come.

Unbelievers do not believe in God and so they do not desire to take any kingdom of God. Only the religious false elite qualify in doing that.

 

[Tree of Life]

Right, and the violence done to God's Kingdom at the time of Jesus was with the Pharisees. They tried to take the Kingdom by force. This is very clear to see by their actions and what they said. Those who are violent can also include other religious men who are trying to act in violence as a part of God's Kingdom through out history and yet to come.

I don't see why the violent men need to be religious men or men who seem to be part of the kingdom. John was arrested by Herod who was obviously impious and wicked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see why the violent men need to be religious men or men who seem to be part of the kingdom. John was arrested by Herod who was obviously impious and wicked.

While it certainly sounds like this could refer to John's situation in that he was being persecuted by unbelievers, Jesus often times spoke in a way that was prophetic and beyond the situation that they were in. Again, unbelievers cannot take the Kingdom by force because they are not interested in the Kingdom of God. This largely pertains to believers in God who will act violently on behalf of God as a part of their thinking that they are doing God a service (of which we see with the wrongful crucifixion of Jesus). I believe Jesus was relating John's situation of being taken by force by an unbeliever as a parallel with the Pharisees and Israelites who sought to take God's Kingdom by force. I believe the religious elite have persecuted Jesus, and Christians through out history, and they will do so again. The reason for this is because Jesus says that the violent try to take the Kingdom by force. Unbelievers are not concerned about anything in regards to God's Kingdom. This does not negate the fact that believers will not be persecuted by unbelievers, but Matthew 11:12 is dealing specifically with the false religious elite that prophetically speaks of Christ's persecution (with the cross), Christians through out our history, and Christians in the future.

 

[redleghunter]

Some options that have historically been presented:

1. The Kingdom is forcefully breaking into the present age.
2. Violent men like the zealots try to advance the Kingdom by force.
3. Needy souls force their way into the doors of the Kingdom.
4. The Kingdom is persecuted in the present age. It suffers violence from violent, unbelieving men.

A bit of #1 and #3

I've seen the verse interpreted as "The kingdom presses ahead relentlessly, and only the relentless press their way into it."

 

[icxn]

What verse in the Bible again shows John the Baptist doing violence to himself?
I must have missed that one.

He lived in the wilderness (Matthew 11:7), his garments were very... ascetic and his food was locusts and wild honey (Matthew 3:4), that sounds like a man who did violence to himself, No?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He lived in the wilderness (Matthew 11:7), his garments were very... ascetic and his food was locusts and wild honey (Matthew 3:4), that sounds like a man who did violence to himself, No?

No. Doing violence to oneself would be smashing one's head with a toilet seat, or punching oneself.

 

[icxn]

... Then Jesus turns to the crowds to speak well of John. John is no "reed shaken by the wind" or a man accustomed to comforts. He of all people should understand that the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and to be a Christian means to be persecuted in this age.

That's, at least, how I read it.

I agree. Still, the outward persecution is only part of the struggle. The inward persecution from the demons and the will of the flesh (the passions) that tempt us to sin is the other and most important part.

 

[Jonaitis]

I could be wrong, but I had seen this passage in connection with Luke 16:16, that since John's ministry the kingdom has had many "force" their way in as it were. It is almost self-explanatory, to me at least.

 

[icxn]

No. Doing violence to oneself would be smashing one's head with a toilet seat, or punching oneself.

Obviously that is not the definition I have in mind as explained in post 14.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Today, we have a group of Christians who believe that Christians will conquer all other nations by physical force. Surely this is what Jesus was talking about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Obviously that is not the definition I have in mind as explained in post 14.

But that is what it means to be violent. The criteria you have given does not qualify as violence. That would be like saying a dog is a cat or something. You are trying to change the basic meaning of words and it doesn't work like that.

 

[Tree of Life]

I could be wrong, but I had seen this passage in connection with Luke 16:16, that since John's ministry the kingdom has had many "force" their way in as it were. It is almost self-explanatory, to me at least.

I mention this in my OP. I think Luke's meaning is probably different although it looks very similar.

 

[Jonaitis]

I mention this in my OP. I think Luke's meaning is probably different although it looks very similar.

I know, I read the OP...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mention this in my OP. I think Luke's meaning is probably different although it looks very similar.

Luke 16:16 is also similar. When you read it, think of these words of Jesus that also say:

"...the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." (Matthew 21:31).

This was said in the Parable of the Two Sons. Yet, the following parable (i.e. The Parable of the Wicked Tenants) we learn that it prophetically speaks of Jesus's death.

"But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance." (Matthew 21:38).

This means that the religious elite (the Pharisees) were seeking to take the Kingdom by force (by their crucifying Jesus).

Jesus also said,

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2).

The violent seek to take the Kingdom by force.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why it is so important to love your enemies and to do good that despitefully use you, etc. Today, there is a group of Christians who think they will take the kingdom by physical force. This is the exact opposite of what Jesus wants us as Christians to do, but Jesus prophetically spoke about this. He said this will also happen to us, too. We will be persecuted by those who are supposed to be our brothers, and sisters.

 

[Sanoy]

Sounds weird!

Yeah, I suppose it is weird in the modern era but this idea of Princes goes back to Deuteronomy 32:8 " He divided the nations according to the number of the Sons of God (Princes, like Michael)" (Note: not in Masoretic, but in LLX and Dead sea). When Gabriel was going to deliver the answer to Daniels prayer he was captured for 21 days by one of these Prince's. It's why Jesus sent out 70 disciples, and why Paul goes to the territory of every place in the table of nations.

The concept of Israel as God's allotment (Deut 32:9) and the rest of the nations being given over to the false gods they worshiped (.v8)is a pretty buried theological thread but it's definitely there. It's why Paul goes to such great lengths to tell us who are real enemies are in Ephesians 6:2 "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." The violence is in that heavenly realm.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." (Matthew 10:21).

Note: While this verse does deal with one's own blood relatives, I believe it is also speaks about those who claim to be of the household of God who will persecute us, as well.