(Catholics only) How long should I keep fighting what seems a lost war?

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anna ~ grace

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I cannot answer that now, I dont know. I simply cannot rule the ecclesiology out of the picture I mean it's our selling point above everything.

If what just happened to the church is possible then I'll need to reconsider if I even believe in our ecclesiology and papacy.
If the office falls then so does our exclusiveness and our uniqueness.
Then we're just one church among many...
Peter denied Christ three times, and was even called "Satan" by Christ Himself. Still, John and Mary were there, at the foot of the Cross, not taking their eyes off Christ. I think to survive this, we will have to get very, very interior, hold on to what we know is True, and focus on Christ.
 
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Markie Boy

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The post Vatican 2 Church is not in harmony with the prior 1900 years - I'll agree - and that's a problem, as it's one of the big sell points.

I left Protestantism to this "united and unified" faith. I can tell you it's just as divided and inconsistent inside Catholicism as outside it feels. I have to battle leadership that won't lead the right way, and laity that are the same. And I'm not asking for much - what should be simple Christian concepts.

I have to say it seems the East has held the Apostolic faith better, and more unchanged. They may have a little unity issue, but so does Catholicism today in a huge way. But the Faith being unchanged - the East looks a lot more consistent.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Persecution and apostasy is coming to Christianity period. The scripture is clear that we will face increased persecution and many will fall away.

We need to pray unceasingly that we can stand. We need to be lights to those who who will be seeking when times get darker. Let's not give up but encourage one another in our faith.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Wheat grows with the chaff. Distressing as it is, we were warned. I had the same attitude upon conversion. Catholicism is the safe haven. We can leave our problems behind in our Protestant backgrounds. Well the RCC is not immune from the spiritual struggles all Christians experience. It just did or does not make the front page like the RCC does. Do you every wonder why?

I would say I felt the same way, but I would add on and say that the Church itself is still a safe haven despite the rogue clergy who betray her. I mean, if we borrow the whole bride and groom analogy, the groom doesn't reject the bride just because some of her servants aren't very loyal. Rather, those servants just won't be at the wedding.
 
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Michie

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Excellent post Fenwick. :thumbsup:
I would say I felt the same way, but I would add on and say that the Church itself is still a safe haven despite the rogue clergy who betray her. I mean, if we borrow the whole bride and groom analogy, the groom doesn't reject the bride just because some of her servants aren't very loyal. Rather, those servants just won't be at the wedding.
 
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StevenMerten

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Hi, this is a question I've been asking myself on and off for almost my entire time as a catholic : how long shall I fight against the demonic powers reigning in the church? Liberalism and heterodoxy is so so widespread and I'm not able to rest anywhere, but in my private prayer and in theological studies. I'm tired and I'm exhausted, Its coming to the point where I start to think I should let go.

I mean since the day I embraced Catholicism and converted I've felt drawn by its mysticism and its spirituality aswell as its systematic theology.
Equally true is it that since day one I've felt like I'm being labeled and harrassed within the church for taking the catechism and the faith deeply serious.
Progressive and heterodox Catholics are everywhere and I'm feeling like a sitting duck in a duck pond surrounded by predators.

As I said I'm on the brick of giving up and let this pope of ours keep his church and have all his liberal friends spread their heresy without my having to endure this hogwash, week in and week out.
I'm very disillusioned with how things are at the moment, both in the western church aswell as the eastern church. I'm about to give up on this whole apostolic church idea we adhere to and hold so highly. I'm actually thinking of perhaps go back to a conservative Lutheran church or something, I dunno...

Thing is I wish I can continue on in church, but it's so tiresome to be running uphill every single minute I'm in church. Liberal mass, liberaltheology and straight out heretical homilies...
On top of everything sspx is shutting down its parish near me :(
I can only take so much and then on top of everything I'm ostracised by friends and other Catholics because I'm prolife and against LGBT...

Well I'm just letting go of some steam I guess. I guess I'm just asking for prayers etc...

Matthew 13:36
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned (up) with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Hello Stabat,
Are you prepared for Jesus Second Coming and are you out working to prepare the world for it? Through locution via St. Faustina, Jesus says He is Coming! Jesus in Matthew 24, the Book of Revelation, mystics through apparitions and visions, Prayer to St. Michael Archangel 1902 version, all say that there will apostasy in Church leadership, right before Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus tells us it will be a an era, morally far worse than the time before the Great Flood.

We are living through this era which is morally far worse than the time of the Great Flood. What does Jesus instruct us to do in Matthew 24, when we see His end times sign? Run for Your Lives! Where are we going to run? Well it just so happens that Jesus gave us His Divine Mercy Feast Day, as of the year 2000, as the place to run too, when you see the sign, of end times, which you are clearly referring to, in your thread. Does the Lutheran church, or any church other than Jesus' Catholic Church, have His Divine Mercy Feast Day to run to? No.

Have you put on the dress, and are you evangelizing for others to put on the dress? The Divine Mercy Feast Day, is receiving the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist, on the second Sunday of Easter. This is what Jesus wants us to do in preparation for His Second Coming, which will be The Wedding Day of the Lamb. Jesus want His Church, the Catholic Church, to put on the Wedding Garment of Divine Mercy Feast Day, in preparation for His Wedding Day!

Christ's Kingdom Come, on earth, will last tens of thousands of years. God will reign down massive miracles upon His Church. People will all be as religious as priests. There will be peace on earth. Jesus will wipe away our every tear.

We have to go through Armageddon to get to Jesus Kingdom Come. Armageddon is where Jesus dispatches His angels to hurl the unrepentant wicked into hell, and separate out the just for His Kingdom Come on earth. Visions of mystics are indicating 75% of world population die and are thrust into hell.

I think the only reason left for Jesus to not already have Come, is that not enough people have put on the dress, to survive His Second Coming. We know that we will loose Church leadership right before Jesus' Second Coming. Who does this leave, on earth, to evangelize to the world, to put on the dress? US! If you want to battle demons, liberalism and heterodoxy; the way to do this is to get the Elect prepared for Jesus Second Coming, and the demons, liberals and heretics, will suddenly vanish from the earth, and be thrust into hell, without anything else having to be done.

What do you say? Shall we all work together to prepare the world for Jesus Second Coming, as the Blessed Mother and Jesus have asked us to?

The Blessed Virgin Mary :

... you have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh, how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for [granting] mercy. If you keep silent now, you will be answering for a great number of souls on that terrible day. ... (635)

Jesus looked at me and said, Souls perish in spite of My bitter Passion. I am giving them the last hope of salvation; that is, the Feast of My Mercy. If they will not adore My mercy, they will perish for all eternity. Secretary of My mercy, write, tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near. (Diary - Divine Mercy in My Soul, 965)

 
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chevyontheriver

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This has been a tough
Hi, this is a question I've been asking myself on and off for almost my entire time as a catholic : how long shall I fight against the demonic powers reigning in the church? Liberalism and heterodoxy is so so widespread and I'm not able to rest anywhere, but in my private prayer and in theological studies. I'm tired and I'm exhausted, Its coming to the point where I start to think I should let go.

I mean since the day I embraced Catholicism and converted I've felt drawn by its mysticism and its spirituality aswell as its systematic theology.
Equally true is it that since day one I've felt like I'm being labeled and harrassed within the church for taking the catechism and the faith deeply serious.
Progressive and heterodox Catholics are everywhere and I'm feeling like a sitting duck in a duck pond surrounded by predators.

As I said I'm on the brick of giving up and let this pope of ours keep his church and have all his liberal friends spread their heresy without my having to endure this hogwash, week in and week out.
I'm very disillusioned with how things are at the moment, both in the western church aswell as the eastern church. I'm about to give up on this whole apostolic church idea we adhere to and hold so highly. I'm actually thinking of perhaps go back to a conservative Lutheran church or something, I dunno...

Thing is I wish I can continue on in church, but it's so tiresome to be running uphill every single minute I'm in church. Liberal mass, liberaltheology and straight out heretical homilies...
On top of everything sspx is shutting down its parish near me :(
I can only take so much and then on top of everything I'm ostracised by friends and other Catholics because I'm prolife and against LGBT...

Well I'm just letting go of some steam I guess. I guess I'm just asking for prayers etc...
This has been a tough time for all of us. But look, right here, we aren't as alone as we appear to be. Not everyone is a flaming liberal.

David thought he was all alone too, but he wasn't. Remember that story? Psalm 13 and 1 Samuel 21.

And consider that it is probably a good prayer to ask for the return of Jesus as soon as possible. It is his battle, his victory, and all we need to do is be faithful, and have as little anxiety about the craziness as we can. Craziness will continue or even get worse. We don't need to vanquish all opponents. Just stay faithful to our Lord. Nothing more.
 
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StevenMerten

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And consider that it is probably a good prayer to ask for the return of Jesus as soon as possible. It is his battle, his victory, and all we need to do is be faithful, and have as little anxiety about the craziness as we can. Craziness will continue or even get worse. We don't need to vanquish all opponents. Just stay faithful to our Lord. Nothing more.

Hello Chevy,
It is Jesus' battle. I agree with you. Many people forget this; both those who try to win the battle on their own, and those who try to control, Jesus' image, of just how He is going to handle His present problem. When Jesus Comes, we have no control over how many opponents Jesus removes from the game. Before Jesus Comes, we are in control over how many people we, invite and evangelize too, in hopes that they too will prepare for Jesus' Second Coming, by immersing themselves in His Divine Mercy Feast Day.

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina​

Write down these words, My daughter. Speak to the world about My mercy; let all mankind recognize My unfathomable mercy. It is a sign for the end times; after it will come the day of justice. (848)

He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice... (1146) Today I heard a voice in my soul: Oh, if sinners knew My mercy, they would not perish in such great numbers. Tell sinful souls not to be afraid to approach Me; speak to them of My great mercy.

... Oh, how miserable are those who do not take advantage of the miracle of God's mercy! You will call out in vain, but it will be too late. (1448)

Tell sinners that no one shall escape My Hand; if they run away from My Merciful Heart, they will fall into My Just Hands. (1728)

Revelation 14:14 The Harvest of the Earth.
Then I looked and there was a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud one who looked like a son of man, with a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the one sitting on the cloud, 'Use your sickle and reap the harvest, for the time to reap has come, because the earth's harvest is fully ripe.' So the one who was sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven who also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel [came] from the altar, [who] was in charge of the fire, and cried out in a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, 'Use your sharp sickle and cut the clusters from the earth's vines, for its grapes are ripe.' So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and cut the earth's vintage. He threw it into the great wine press of God's fury. The wine press was trodden outside the city and blood poured out of the wine press to the height of a horse's bridle for two hundred miles.
 
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The Grouch

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I cannot answer that now, I dont know. I simply cannot rule the ecclesiology out of the picture I mean it's our selling point above everything.

If what just happened to the church is possible then I'll need to reconsider if I even believe in our ecclesiology and papacy.
If the office falls then so does our exclusiveness and our uniqueness.
Then we're just one church among many...

We need to keep in mind that what we are going through right now has been foretold and that even though things will probably get a lot worse we will be delivered in a most miraclous way.. i stay and be part of that.

We have to suffer good friday before we experience easter sunday.. the apostles faith was shaken they were unsure they were confused but they stayed together supported each other and stuck it out and were witnesses of the ressurection, their dispair and turmoil turned to joy.. it is all foretold the day of joy will come.

You should count your blessings stabat, there are many in the church who dont see what you see, you have been chosen to see these things.. that places a responsibility on us. We have to work for the restoration its no good doubting the faith when the faith is in our hands, you have been given the Catholic faith by God.. protect it, defend it, uphold it. The gift you have recieved may feel like a curse but it is a great blessing, you really do not know how lucky you are.

Its crazy how fast things can change, i have been lamenting recently the state of my own diocese the liberal modernism it all seemed like a lost cause, but a few days ago we were appointed a new bishop who is more favourable to tradition and orthodoxy and once more i find there is much to hope for in the diocese. This bishop will preside over a total collapse of the priesthood in our diocese as all the priests are getting very old and many will die.. many of whom are very liberal and modernist and this bishop who is friendly to tradition and orthodoxy will need to rebuild from the ground up... things can and will change... its all foretold, when those around you are losing or have lost the faith.. its important that you keep yours... because others are looking to you, you will give others strengh... we are all links in a chain as eqch link breaks more pressure is put on the rest. Your faith needs to be strong not just for you.. but for me, for everyone on this site, for everyone in the church, for everyone in the entire world
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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We need to keep in mind that what we are going through right now has been foretold and that even though things will probably get a lot worse we will be delivered in a most miraclous way.. i stay and be part of that.

We have to suffer good friday before we experience easter sunday.. the apostles faith was shaken they were unsure they were confused but they stayed together supported each other and stuck it out and were witnesses of the ressurection, their dispair and turmoil turned to joy.. it is all foretold the day of joy will come.

You should count your blessings stabat, there are many in the church who dont see what you see, you have been chosen to see these things.. that places a responsibility on us. We have to work for the restoration its no good doubting the faith when the faith is in our hands, you have been given the Catholic faith by God.. protect it, defend it, uphold it. The gift you have recieved may feel like a curse but it is a great blessing, you really do not know how lucky you are.

Its crazy how fast things can change, i have been lamenting recently the state of my own diocese the liberal modernism it all seemed like a lost cause, but a few days ago we were appointed a new bishop who is more favourable to tradition and orthodoxy and once more i find there is much to hope for in the diocese. This bishop will preside over a total collapse of the priesthood in our diocese as all the priests are getting very old and many will die.. many of whom are very liberal and modernist and this bishop who is friendly to tradition and orthodoxy will need to rebuild from the ground up... things can and will change... its all foretold, when those around you are losing or have lost the faith.. its important that you keep yours... because others are looking to you, you will give others strengh... we are all links in a chain as eqch link breaks more pressure is put on the rest. Your faith needs to be strong not just for you.. but for me, for everyone on this site, for everyone in the church, for everyone in the entire world

It sounds nice, but I'm not sure I believe in it anymore.
I will forever cling to Christ my hope, life and my God but it may not be in the catholic church.
There is no way one can obtain everlasting life, but through Christ as Cardinal Műller put it in his manifesto.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I will take a break from mass until ash Wednesday and use the time to pray about it.
We suffer from a very heterodox priest in my parish too which makes it unbearable to go to mass in my current state.
 
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The Grouch

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I will take a break from mass until ash Wednesday and use the time to pray about it.
We suffer from a very heterodox priest in my parish too which makes it unbearable to go to mass in my current state.

You may be the last light of faith in the whole of norway who knows?

Fight back, dont let them destroy your faith.

Promise me one thing if you are away from mass...on sunday read the latin mass readings for thr day then pray "oh My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I long for You in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though You have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You then say the rosary, say the prayer to st micheal and and ask the most sacred heart for mercy 3 times
 
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StevenMerten

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It sounds nice, but I'm not sure I believe in it anymore.
I will forever cling to Christ my hope, life and my God but it may not be in the catholic church.
There is no way one can obtain everlasting life, but through Christ as Cardinal Műller put it in his manifesto.

Hello Stabat,
You do understand that the Sacraments of the Church are all still valid, even when the Catholic clergy who are preforming them are evil, right? The Blessed Mother has said that it is 'all Catholic' in the 'Golden Era for mankind, which is to come'. It is Catholics, wearing the white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, which is Jesus 'Divine Mercy Feast Day', Sacrament of Reconciliation and Eucharist, who become Christ's 'Holy City', The New Jerusalem, which Jesus will Reside in, as King and Ruler of the world, upon His Second Coming.

You may think all Christian churches are equal, but they are not. All other Christian denominations, if they go to heaven through Jesus, they do so as non-practicing, estranged Catholics. Jesus' has warned us what to do, when times get evil; leaving His Church was not one of them. In fact, holding tighter to the Sacraments of His Church, the Catholic Church, is what we must do.

Jesus sign for His Second Coming is, Matthew 24:3 'When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place' The Israelites had to endure the 'desolating abomination' standing in the secular power place, of Daniel's day, guiding them on their religious practices. Please reflect on how the Israelites remained faithful to God, with a desolating abomination, guiding them in their religious practices, in their day.

2 Maccabees 7:1 Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Sons.
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God's law. One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: What do you expect to achieve by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors. At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. While they were being quickly heated, he commanded his executioners to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: "The LORD God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, 'And he will have pity on his servants.'"

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, "Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?" Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: "You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying."

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, "Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?" Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: "You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying."

After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: "It was from Heaven that I received these: for the sake of his laws I disdain them." Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young man's courage, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.
After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you there will be no resurrection to life. "
They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him. Looking at the king, he said: "Since you have power among men, mortal though you are, do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. Only wait, and you will see how his great power will torment you and your descendants. "

After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: "Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such astonishing things have happened to us. Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God."

Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the LORD. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."

She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: "What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king's command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though our living LORD treats us harshly for a little while to correct us with chastisements, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, vilest of all men! do not, in your insolence, concern yourself with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of Heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. My brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God's covenant but you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance.""Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God."

 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Hello Stabat,
You do understand that the Sacraments of the Church are all still valid, even when the Catholic clergy who are preforming them are evil, right? The Blessed Mother has said that it is 'all Catholic' in the 'Golden Era for mankind, which is to come'. It is Catholics, wearing the white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, which is Jesus 'Divine Mercy Feast Day', Sacrament of Reconciliation and Eucharist, who become Christ's 'Holy City', The New Jerusalem, which Jesus will Reside in, as King and Ruler of the world, upon His Second Coming.

You may think all Christian churches are equal, but they are not. All other Christian denominations, if they go to heaven through Jesus, they do so as non-practicing, estranged Catholics. Jesus' has warned us what to do, when times get evil; leaving His Church was not one of them. In fact, holding tighter to the Sacraments of His Church, the Catholic Church, is what we must do.

Jesus sign for His Second Coming is, Matthew 24:3 'When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place' The Israelites had to endure the 'desolating abomination' standing in the secular power place, of Daniel's day, guiding them on their religious practices. Please reflect on how the Israelites remained faithful to God, with a desolating abomination, guiding them in their religious practices, in their day.

2 Maccabees 7:1 Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Sons.
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God's law. One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: What do you expect to achieve by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors. At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. While they were being quickly heated, he commanded his executioners to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: "The LORD God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, 'And he will have pity on his servants.'"

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, "Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?" Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: "You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying."

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, "Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?" Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: "You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying."

After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: "It was from Heaven that I received these: for the sake of his laws I disdain them." Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young man's courage, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.
After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you there will be no resurrection to life. "
They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him. Looking at the king, he said: "Since you have power among men, mortal though you are, do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. Only wait, and you will see how his great power will torment you and your descendants. "

After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: "Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such astonishing things have happened to us. Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God."

Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the LORD. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."

She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: "What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king's command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though our living LORD treats us harshly for a little while to correct us with chastisements, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, vilest of all men! do not, in your insolence, concern yourself with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of Heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. My brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God's covenant but you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance.""Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God."


Thanks for a lengthy response to my post, but rest assured I have a degree in theology and I'm very familiar with our doctrine and the doctrines of the Lutheran church.
If I go somewhere else, I'll be fully aware of what it means theologically and the ramifications of it.
 
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StevenMerten

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Thanks for a lengthy response to my post, but rest assured I have a degree in theology and I'm very familiar with our doctrine and the doctrines of the Lutheran church.
If I go somewhere else, I'll be fully aware of what it means theologically and the ramifications of it.
Ok friend. We must all be ready to, even lay down our lives, for our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Do not let any desolating abomination get between you and doing our Lord's Will.
 
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The post Vatican 2 Church is not in harmony with the prior 1900 years - I'll agree - and that's a problem, as it's one of the big sell points.

I left Protestantism to this "united and unified" faith. I can tell you it's just as divided and inconsistent inside Catholicism as outside it feels. I have to battle leadership that won't lead the right way, and laity that are the same. And I'm not asking for much - what should be simple Christian concepts.

I have to say it seems the East has held the Apostolic faith better, and more unchanged. They may have a little unity issue, but so does Catholicism today in a huge way. But the Faith being unchanged - the East looks a lot more consistent.
Maybe better, but not perfectly and better does not a conversion make.
 
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Are you absolutely sure of that?

Eternally no, who could be?
Theologically yes, I'll have to go by my conscience and I believe I'm about to reject Pastor Aeternus as heresy.
That's a official dogma of the church and the entire office of the papacy rests upon it.
I think Vatican 1 was the worst thing that could happen to the church and that it placed a human being in the place of God through utter blasphemy.

If this end up being my theological conviction then I have to leave the church.
 
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Eternally no, who could be?
Theologically yes, I'll have to go by my conscience and I believe I'm about to reject Pastor Aeternus as heresy.
That's a official dogma of the church and the entire office of the papacy rests upon it.
I think Vatican 1 was the worst thing that could happen to the church and that it placed a human being in the place of God through utter blasphemy.
If this end up being my theological conviction then I have to leave the church.
So the Church remained infallible for nearly 1900 yrs, through Arianism, Islamic invasions, the papal schisms, only to succumb at Vatican I? I'm not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand. Also, I question the premise that 'the entire office of the papacy' rests on a dogma officially formulated in the late nineteenth century. If papal authority is true, then it rests with Christ's promise given to Peter in first century Palestine. Otherwise we wouldn't have had a Pope until 1868(?), actually we wouldn't have a Pope at all, since a mere man cannot declare himself infallible.
 
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