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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

ADL Report on extremist violence

JosephZ

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Untrue.

Quote the section that explains they're only discussing foreign threats...or stop spreading falsehoods.
Here's the link you provided. All of the testimony of the speakers can be found here and it is clear that I'm not spreading falsehoods. I would never intentionally deceive anyone.

Hearings | Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee

There is no need to quote a section that explains they're only discussing foreign threats, because all of what was discussed in that hearing was focused on foreign threats and Homegrown Violent Extremists.

HVEs are not the same as domestic terrorists.

One of the problems with the current administration is that they are intentionally ignoring the threat of right-wing extremism in the US.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The average person would probably take the time to read the whole report and then come to the realization that right-wing extremism is a problem in the US.

I read it....I didn't come to that conclusion.

A right-wing extremist and and Islamic extremist are equally as dangerous. One is not more dangerous than the other.

Not according to the experts.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There is no need to quote a section that explains they're only discussing foreign threats, because

Because it doesn't exist and it's plainly obvious they're talking about all threats.

HVEs are not the same as domestic terrorists.

Why don't you explain the difference.

One of the problems with the current administration is that they are intentionally ignoring the threat of right-wing extremism in the US.

What threat? It's the biggest year since the 70s for right wing extremism and they killed maybe 19 people! That's a really really generous 19 too....once you clear out the mental cases, it's not even 15.

Oh nooooo lol....you have about equal chances of dying because of right wing extremism as you do winning the lottery!
 
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SummerMadness

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The average person would probably take the time to read the whole report and then come to the realization that right-wing extremism is a problem in the US.

A right-wing extremist and and Islamic extremist are equally as dangerous. One is not more dangerous than the other.
Most people do not read reports, especially when the report goes against their biased belief. Even if there are multiple studies where most have similar conclusions, they will ignore all those reports to throw their weight behind the minority that agrees with their bias. It's something you especially on this topic as the right-wing extremists are mostly white males; when you spend a great deal of energy demonizing people of color and/or the religion that some people follow, you feel threatened when reports like this demonstrate that brown people aren't the biggest perpetrators, rather it's the people that look like you. What are you to do then? Do you use the same logic you apply to people of color and now say that white males are the issue (it's all about their "culture") or do you amend your views to realize that maybe smearing an entire group isn't a good idea. They choose option 3, ignore the report and continue to smear the group you don't like.
 
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JosephZ

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I read it....I didn't come to that conclusion.
Most people reading it would.

Not according to the experts.

Below are some additional studies on extremism in the US aside from the ADL’s Center on Extremism report found in the OP.

United States Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center
In the decade following 9/11 ...an average of nine American Muslims per year have been involved in an average of six terrorism-related plots against targets in the United States. Most were disrupted, but the 20 plots that were carried out accounted for 50 fatalities over the past 13 and a half years. In contrast, right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities
https://ctc.usma.edu/app/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf

Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security
Local law enforcement agencies see the threat of terrorism inspired by al-Qaeda and like-minded terrorist organizations as less of a threat than other forms of violent
extremism, principally anti-government extremism.... Of 382 law enforcement agencies, 74 percent reported anti-government extremism as one of the top three terrorist threats in their jurisdiction; 39 percent listed extremism connected with al Qaeda or like-minded terrorist organizations.

https://sites.duke.edu/tcths/files/...ent_of_the_Violent_Extremist_Threat_final.pdf

United States Government Accountability Office
Since September 12, 2001, the number of fatalities caused by domestic violent extremists has ranged from 1 to 49 in a given year... fatalities resulting from attacks by far right wing violet extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001. Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent). The total number of fatalities is about the same for far right wing violent extremists and radical Islamist violent extremists over the approximately 15-year period (106 and 119, respectively). However, 41 percent of the deaths attributable to radical Islamist violent extremists occurred in a single event—an attack at an Orlando, Florida night club in 2016
https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

While the sources may differ on the total number of deaths and the methodology they use, they all agree that right-wing extremist attacks are far more common than Islamic attacks. The evidence is overwhelming that the main terrorist threat in the United States is from right-wing extremists rather than Islamic extremists. Regardless of whether or not you believe this or not, it doesn't change the fact that both groups are equally as dangerous. Both groups kill innocent people because of their ideology, and there have been attempts from both to acquire weapons of mass destruction with the desire of killing as many people as possible in a single attack.

Because it doesn't exist and it's plainly obvious they're talking about all threats.
And yet the only threats they disused in that hearing were foreign threats and those where foreign influence radicalized homegrown extremists. They completely ignored the threats from right-wing extremism or other domestic threats. Keep in mind, the individuals speaking in that hearing were politically appointed and will have a bias towards the current administrations policies.

Why don't you explain the difference.
I already provided this earlier in the thread. Here it is again:

A homegrown violent extremist (HVE) is a person of any citizenship who has lived and/or operated primarily in the United States or its territories who advocates, is engaged in, or is preparing to engage in ideologically-motivated terrorist activities (including providing support to terrorism) in furtherance of political or social objectives promoted by a foreign terrorist organization but is acting independently of direction by a foreign terrorist organization. HVEs are distinct from traditional domestic terrorists who engage in unlawful acts of violence to intimidate civilian populations or attempt to influence domestic policy without direction from or influence from a foreign actor. -United States Department of Homeland Security-



What threat? It's the biggest year since the 70s for right wing extremism and they killed maybe 19 people! That's a really really generous 19 too....once you clear out the mental cases, it's not even 15.

Oh nooooo lol....you have about equal chances of dying because of right wing extremism as you do winning the lottery!
Once again, we are back were we started. You show no concern for right-wing extremism in the US, while at the same time show concern for Islamic extremism.

Earlier in the thread I asked if you find the threats below comparable to Islamic extremist:

They seemed normal but plotted to kill thousands
National News Briefs; Material for Poison Gas Found in Suspect's Home
Report: 'Dirty bomb' parts found in slain man's home
CNN - 2 charged with making biological weapons - February 19, 1998
Admitted neo-Nazi stopped in Keys wanted for making explosives at home, cops say

You first answered with:

The people who deal with these threats professionally don't.

Surely you don't imagine yourself better informed than them.

And when asked again you said no, but ignored the examples given and sidetracked the issue by discounting the studies on right-wing extremism.

No....Islamic extremists are a much bigger threat. I've gone through lists like this one....murder by murder....and most of the victims of those "right wing extremists" were killed for reasons that had nothing to do with extremism. They were killed for reasons like financial gain, personal romantic relationships, drunken or drug induced fights, and even the occasional prison fight.

Regardless of how the number of victims is determined, it doesn't change the fact that right wing extremists have carried out more attacks and killed more people than Islamic extremists since 9/11 even when you take out the questionable incidents. It also doesn't change the fact that right-wing extremists have the desire to cause mass casualty events using weapons of mass destruction.

The examples I gave of right-wing extremists having chemical/biological weapons and dirty bombs with a desire to cause mass casualty events in the US are real. If you were to answer the question if the threats were comparable to that of Islamic extremist honestly, you would have no further grounds to support your argument that there is no reason to be concerned with right-wing extremism in the US.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Most people reading it would.

Well they would be wrong.


Below are some additional studies on extremism in the US aside from the ADL’s Center on Extremism report found in the OP.

United States Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center
In the decade following 9/11 ...an average of nine American Muslims per year have been involved in an average of six terrorism-related plots against targets in the United States. Most were disrupted, but the 20 plots that were carried out accounted for 50 fatalities over the past 13 and a half years. In contrast, right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities
https://ctc.usma.edu/app/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf

I don't know how they're counting. The Boston marathon bombing, Ft Hood shooting, and Orlando massacre account for over 50....once again their methods are misleading and false.

Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security
Local law enforcement agencies see the threat of terrorism inspired by al-Qaeda and like-minded terrorist organizations as less of a threat than other forms of violent
extremism, principally anti-government extremism.... Of 382 law enforcement agencies, 74 percent reported anti-government extremism as one of the top three terrorist threats in their jurisdiction; 39 percent listed extremism connected with al Qaeda or like-minded terrorist organizations.

https://sites.duke.edu/tcths/files/...ent_of_the_Violent_Extremist_Threat_final.pdf

United States Government Accountability Office
Since September 12, 2001, the number of fatalities caused by domestic violent extremists has ranged from 1 to 49 in a given year... fatalities resulting from attacks by far right wing violet extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001. Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent). The total number of fatalities is about the same for far right wing violent extremists and radical Islamist violent extremists over the approximately 15-year period (106 and 119, respectively). However, 41 percent of the deaths attributable to radical Islamist violent extremists occurred in a single event—an attack at an Orlando, Florida night club in 2016
https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

Again, deaths caused by violent extremists aren't the same as those caused by violent extremism.

While the sources may differ on the total number of deaths and the methodology they use, they all agree that right-wing extremist attacks are far more common than Islamic attacks. The evidence is overwhelming that the main terrorist threat in the United States is from right-wing extremists rather than Islamic extremists. Regardless of whether or not you believe this or not, it doesn't change the fact that both groups are equally as dangerous. Both groups kill innocent people because of their ideology, and there have been attempts from both to acquire weapons of mass destruction with the desire of killing as many people as possible in a single attack.


And yet the only threats they disused in that hearing were foreign threats and those where foreign influence radicalized homegrown extremists. They completely ignored the threats from right-wing extremism or other domestic threats. Keep in mind, the individuals speaking in that hearing were politically appointed and will have a bias towards the current administrations policies.


I already provided this earlier in the thread. Here it is again:






Once again, we are back were we started. You show no concern for right-wing extremism in the US, while at the same time show concern for Islamic extremism.

Earlier in the thread I asked if you find the threats below comparable to Islamic extremist:

They seemed normal but plotted to kill thousands
National News Briefs; Material for Poison Gas Found in Suspect's Home
Report: 'Dirty bomb' parts found in slain man's home
CNN - 2 charged with making biological weapons - February 19, 1998
Admitted neo-Nazi stopped in Keys wanted for making explosives at home, cops say

You first answered with:



And when asked again you said no, but ignored the examples given and sidetracked the issue by discounting the studies on right-wing extremism.

Those studies are misleading. What's the point in fighting right wing extremism if it won't matter?


Regardless of how the number of victims is determined, it doesn't change the fact that right wing extremists have carried out more attacks and killed more people than Islamic extremists since 9/11 even when you take out the questionable incidents.

The vast majority of which are not classified as terrorist attacks....but rather regular murders.

It also doesn't change the fact that right-wing extremists have the desire to cause mass casualty events using weapons of mass destruction.

Except they haven't.

The examples I gave of right-wing extremists having chemical/biological weapons and dirty bombs with a desire to cause mass casualty events in the US are real. If you were to answer the question if the threats were comparable to that of Islamic extremist honestly, you would have no further grounds to support your argument that there is no reason to be concerned with right-wing extremism in the US.

They haven't actually achieved anything.
 
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JosephZ

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What part don't you understand?
You said "deaths caused by violent extremists aren't the same as those caused by violent extremism"

Violent extremism is defined in the US as the the beliefs and actions of people who support or use violence encouraging, condoning, justifying, or supporting the commission of a violent act to achieve political, ideological, religious, social, or economic goals. This includes terrorism, other forms of politically motivated violence and some forms of communal violence. Therefore, a violent extremist would be someone who commits an act of violence to achieve political, ideological, religious, social, or economic goals. They go hand in hand.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You said "deaths caused by violent extremists aren't the same as those caused by violent extremism"

Violent extremism is defined in the US as the the beliefs and actions of people who support or use violence encouraging, condoning, justifying, or supporting the commission of a violent act to achieve political, ideological, religious, social, or economic goals. This includes terrorism, other forms of politically motivated violence and some forms of communal violence. Therefore, a violent extremist would be someone who commits an act of violence to achieve political, ideological, religious, social, or economic goals. They go hand in hand.

Nah...these lists include incidents where one guy, who happens to be a neo nazi, kills someone over a car sale gone wrong.

He killed the guy because of the car sale....he didn't kill him because he's a neo nazi. He killed him for personal reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with his extremist beliefs.

If there were radical muslims gunning down 20+ people for reasons that have nothing to do with radical islam....I'd be saying the same thing. Those examples either don't exist....or they don't get included on this list.

If you want to argue that "right wing extremism" is dangerous and getting people killed....then you need to show that people are dying because of right wing extremism. A white supremacist who kills his neighbor because they argued over his barking dog....doesn't have anything to do with white supremacy. Fighting against white supremacy won't make those incidents less common.

Do you see the difference now?
 
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JosephZ

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Nah...these lists include incidents where one guy, who happens to be a neo nazi, kills someone over a car sale gone wrong.

He killed the guy because of the car sale....he didn't kill him because he's a neo nazi. He killed him for personal reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with his extremist beliefs.


...Those examples either don't exist....or they don't get included on this list.


Do you see the difference now?
Those types of examples are included and there is no difference in the methodology used in determining the incidents that are counted between right wing and Islamic extremists. They both have to meet the same criteria.

Here are a few examples of some of the Islamic extremists that are included in these studies.

Reshad Riddle, a convert to Islam, murdered his father -- 3/24/2013
Tsarnaev brothers shot and killed a Massachusetts Institute of Technology security officer -- 4/18/2013
Justin Nojan Sullivan, a convert to Islam, murdered his neighbor -- 12/18/2014
Perpetrator shot and killed a man in a drive by shooting and killed a college student -- 6/25/2014
Perpetrator shot and killed a man in a drive by shooting -- 4/27/2014

As you can see, there is no difference in the types of incidents that are counted.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Those types of examples are included and there is no difference in the methodology used in determining the incidents that are counted between right wing and Islamic extremists. They both have to meet the same criteria.

Here are a few examples of some of the Islamic extremists that are included in these studies.

Reshad Riddle, a convert to Islam, murdered his father -- 3/24/2013

Motivated by ideology.

Tsarnaev brothers shot and killed a Massachusetts Institute of Technology security officer -- 4/18/2013

Motivated by ideology.

Justin Nojan Sullivan, a convert to Islam, murdered his neighbor -- 12/18/2014

Done as a practice run for an Orlando style terrorist attack....ideology driven.

Perpetrator shot and killed a man in a drive by shooting and killed a college student -- 6/25/2014
Perpetrator shot and killed a man in a drive by shooting -- 4/27/2014

Not enough info about these.

As you can see, there is no difference in the types of incidents that are counted.

No....there's a huge difference. They all appear to have radical Islam as the motivation for the murder.

If you try to fight against radical Islam....it's possible we can stop more crimes like this in thr future. We can't say the same about the murders by right wing extremists....since the vast majority of those don't appear to be motivated by ideology.
 
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JosephZ

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No....there's a huge difference. They all appear to have radical Islam as the motivation for the murder.
In other words, the big difference is that the perpetrators in those examples are Muslims.

We can't say the same about the murders by right wing extremists....since the vast majority of those don't appear to be motivated by ideology.
Here's the thing though, even if you weed out the questionable cases, right wing extremists incidents would still out number Islamic extremists incidents by 2 to 1.

Below are just a few of the 150 terror related incidents involving right-wing extremists between 1993 and 2017 that have a clear connection to ideology.

East Kingdom, New Hampshire, January 2016: An FBI sting operation resulted in the arrest of Daniel Musso and his indictment on four counts of receiving and possessing unregistered explosive devices (grenades). Musso allegedly was attempting to find someone to sell him grenades, shoulder-fired rockets, and C-4 explosives, among other items. Musso allegedly bought four grenades from an undercover informant, describing himself as part of a group of people who wanted to “bring forth the original constitution.”

Garden City, Kansas, October 2016: Three members of a small militia group called The Crusaders were arrested in connection with an alleged terrorist plot to use truck bombs to blow up an apartment complex inhabited primarily by Somali immigrants and where a small mosque was located. Arrested were Curtis Allen, Gavin Wright, and Patrick Eugene Stein, charged with conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction. According to authorities, the militia members thought that Somalis and immigrants presented a threat to American society and that the defendants allegedly hoped that the bombing might inspire other militia groups and “wake people up.”

Sequatchie County, Tennessee/Hancock, New York, April 2015: The FBI arrested Robert Doggart, an ordained minister and anti-Muslim extremist from Tennessee, on charges related to a plot to attack Muslim-owned buildings, including a mosque and school, in Hancock, New York, and to shoot occupants. Hancock is the location of “Islamberg,” a commune associated with a small Islamic sect. Doggart accumulated weapons and explosives and attempted to recruit militia groups to help him with this attack.

Charleston, South Carolina, June 2015: White supremacist Dylann Storm Roof conducted a deadly shooting spree at the AME Emanuel Church in Charleston on June 17, 2015, killing nine people. Roof deliberately targeted the church because its parishioners were African-American; he hoped to incite a “race war” that he thought whites would win.

Lafayette, Louisiana, July 2015: White supremacist John Russell Houser killed himself after conducting a vicious shooting spree at a movie theater in Lafayette, Louisiana, that left two people dead and nine others injured. Houser was obsessed at the perceived moral decay of the United States.

Gaston County, North Carolina, August 2015: Federal agents arrested three North Carolina men—Walter Eugene Litteral, Christopher James Barker, and Christopher Todd Campbell—on federal conspiracy and explosives charges. Authorities said that the men had stockpiled weaponsand ammunition, and attempted to make pipe bombs and grenades, in order to combat the federal government, which they believed was going to declare martial law.

Chesterfield, Virginia, November 2015: FBI agents arrested three white supremacists on a variety of charges related to plans to incite a “race war” by measures such as bombing or otherwise attacking black churches and synagogues, and other violent acts, including committing armed robbery to finance their other plans.

Minneapolis, Minnesota, November 2015: Police arrested Allen “Lance“ Scarsella in November 2015 after Scarsella and others travelled to a Black Lives Matter protest in north Minneapolis, where Scarsella opened fire on protesters there, shooting five people,

Colorado Springs, Colorado, November 2015: Anti-abortion extremist Robert Dear opened fire at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, killing three people—including one police officer—and injuring nine more.

Overland Park, Kansas, April 2014: Long-time Missouri white supremacist Frazier Glenn Miller launched an attack on Jewish institutions in the greater Kansas City area, opening fire at two institutions in a shooting spree that took the lives of three people, including one child.

Las Vegas, Nevada, June 2014: Husband and wife anti-government extremists Jerad and Amanda Miller assassinated two Las Vegas police officers in June 2014, killing them while they were eating lunch at a restaurant. The couple then crossed the street to a Wal-Mart, where they killed a civilian.

Austin, Texas, November 2014: Larry Steve McQuilliams of Austin, Texas, a suspected adherent of the racist and anti-Semitic religious sect known as Christian Identity, launched a shooting attack in downtown Austin, Texas, firing over 100 rounds of ammunition at targets including the Austin Police Department, a federal court house and the Mexican consulate. According to police reports, McQuilliams had improvised explosive devices, a map of 34 other targets, including churches, and a copy of the Christian Identity-related book Vigilantes of Christendom: The Story of the Phineas Priesthood in his rental van.

Los Angeles, California, November 2013: Paul Anthony Ciancia, an anti-government extremist fixated on the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), allegedly targeted TSA officers during a November 2013 shooting rampage at the Los Angeles airport. According to police, Ciancia approached a TSA checkpoint and began shooting TSA officers, killing one and injuring two others, as well as a civilian.

Oak Creek, Wisconsin, August 2012: Racist skinhead Wade Michael Page opened fire at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, killing six people and wounding four others, including a police officer responding to the shootings.

LaPlace, Louisiana, August 2012: A pair of ambushes by a group of sovereign citizens left two St. John the Baptist Sheriff’s deputies dead and two other deputies seriously injured.

Boston, Massachusetts, January 2009: White supremacist Keith Luke embarked upon a spree of murderous violence against ethnic and religious minorities in the Boston area in early 2009. He raped and shot an African immigrant, and shot and killed her sister, who had tried to help her. Shortly thereafter, he shot and killed a homeless African immigrant. Although he planned to go to a synagogue that evening to kill as many Jews as possible, then commit suicide, police intercepted him before he could do so.

Washington, D. C., June 2009: White supremacist James von Brunn attacked the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., entering the facility and opening fire on security guards inside, shooting and killing one of them.

Knoxville, Tennessee, July 2008: Right-wing extremist Jim David Adkisson killed two people and seriously wounded six when he opened fire on the congregation of a Unitarian Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Expecting to die during the attack, Adkisson left behind a racist and homophobic suicide note which detailed his desire

to kill liberals and Democrats.

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, April 2000: During a racially motivated shooting rampage that targeted ethnic and religious minorities, white supremacist Richard Baumhammers of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, shot and killed five people, including an Indian man, a Vietnamese immigrant, a Chinese immigrant, an African-American man, and a Jewish woman. Baumhammers also fired shots into two Jewish synagogues.

Chicago, Illinois, July 1999: During the weekend of July 2-4, 1998, white supremacist Benjamin Smith, a member of the World Church of the Creator, embarked upon a three-day, two-state shooting spree, targeting racial and religious minorities. He killed two people and wounded eleven.

Los Angeles, California, August 1999: White supremacist Buford Furrow, a member of Aryan Nations, traveled from Tacoma, Washington, to Los Angeles, California, where he opened fire inside a Jewish day care center, injuring three children and two employees. Later that day, Furrow shot dead a Filipino-American postal worker.

Olmito, Texas, July 1998: Two anti-government extremists, Jack Abbot Grebe, Jr., and Jonnie Wise, associated with the anti-government Republic of Texas group, conspired to use biological weapons to kill federal officials, including President Clinton, and the directors of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Internal Revenue service.
https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/CR_5154_25YRS RightWing Terrorism_V5.pdf

I don't see how it's possible for someone to look at the examples above and the evidence that clearly shows that right wing extremist incidents have out numbered Islamic extremists incidents in the US for decades and they not be concerned about right-wing extremism.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In other words, the big difference is that the perpetrators in those examples are Muslims.


Here's the thing though, even if you weed out the questionable cases, right wing extremists incidents would still out number Islamic extremists incidents by 2 to 1.

Below are just a few of the 150 terror related incidents involving right-wing extremists between 1993 and 2017 that have a clear connection to ideology.

East Kingdom, New Hampshire, January 2016: An FBI sting operation resulted in the arrest of Daniel Musso and his indictment on four counts of receiving and possessing unregistered explosive devices (grenades). Musso allegedly was attempting to find someone to sell him grenades, shoulder-fired rockets, and C-4 explosives, among other items. Musso allegedly bought four grenades from an undercover informant, describing himself as part of a group of people who wanted to “bring forth the original constitution.”

Garden City, Kansas, October 2016: Three members of a small militia group called The Crusaders were arrested in connection with an alleged terrorist plot to use truck bombs to blow up an apartment complex inhabited primarily by Somali immigrants and where a small mosque was located. Arrested were Curtis Allen, Gavin Wright, and Patrick Eugene Stein, charged with conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction. According to authorities, the militia members thought that Somalis and immigrants presented a threat to American society and that the defendants allegedly hoped that the bombing might inspire other militia groups and “wake people up.”

Sequatchie County, Tennessee/Hancock, New York, April 2015: The FBI arrested Robert Doggart, an ordained minister and anti-Muslim extremist from Tennessee, on charges related to a plot to attack Muslim-owned buildings, including a mosque and school, in Hancock, New York, and to shoot occupants. Hancock is the location of “Islamberg,” a commune associated with a small Islamic sect. Doggart accumulated weapons and explosives and attempted to recruit militia groups to help him with this attack.

Charleston, South Carolina, June 2015: White supremacist Dylann Storm Roof conducted a deadly shooting spree at the AME Emanuel Church in Charleston on June 17, 2015, killing nine people. Roof deliberately targeted the church because its parishioners were African-American; he hoped to incite a “race war” that he thought whites would win.

Lafayette, Louisiana, July 2015: White supremacist John Russell Houser killed himself after conducting a vicious shooting spree at a movie theater in Lafayette, Louisiana, that left two people dead and nine others injured. Houser was obsessed at the perceived moral decay of the United States.

Gaston County, North Carolina, August 2015: Federal agents arrested three North Carolina men—Walter Eugene Litteral, Christopher James Barker, and Christopher Todd Campbell—on federal conspiracy and explosives charges. Authorities said that the men had stockpiled weaponsand ammunition, and attempted to make pipe bombs and grenades, in order to combat the federal government, which they believed was going to declare martial law.

Chesterfield, Virginia, November 2015: FBI agents arrested three white supremacists on a variety of charges related to plans to incite a “race war” by measures such as bombing or otherwise attacking black churches and synagogues, and other violent acts, including committing armed robbery to finance their other plans.

Minneapolis, Minnesota, November 2015: Police arrested Allen “Lance“ Scarsella in November 2015 after Scarsella and others travelled to a Black Lives Matter protest in north Minneapolis, where Scarsella opened fire on protesters there, shooting five people,

Colorado Springs, Colorado, November 2015: Anti-abortion extremist Robert Dear opened fire at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, killing three people—including one police officer—and injuring nine more.

Overland Park, Kansas, April 2014: Long-time Missouri white supremacist Frazier Glenn Miller launched an attack on Jewish institutions in the greater Kansas City area, opening fire at two institutions in a shooting spree that took the lives of three people, including one child.

Las Vegas, Nevada, June 2014: Husband and wife anti-government extremists Jerad and Amanda Miller assassinated two Las Vegas police officers in June 2014, killing them while they were eating lunch at a restaurant. The couple then crossed the street to a Wal-Mart, where they killed a civilian.

Austin, Texas, November 2014: Larry Steve McQuilliams of Austin, Texas, a suspected adherent of the racist and anti-Semitic religious sect known as Christian Identity, launched a shooting attack in downtown Austin, Texas, firing over 100 rounds of ammunition at targets including the Austin Police Department, a federal court house and the Mexican consulate. According to police reports, McQuilliams had improvised explosive devices, a map of 34 other targets, including churches, and a copy of the Christian Identity-related book Vigilantes of Christendom: The Story of the Phineas Priesthood in his rental van.

Los Angeles, California, November 2013: Paul Anthony Ciancia, an anti-government extremist fixated on the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), allegedly targeted TSA officers during a November 2013 shooting rampage at the Los Angeles airport. According to police, Ciancia approached a TSA checkpoint and began shooting TSA officers, killing one and injuring two others, as well as a civilian.

Oak Creek, Wisconsin, August 2012: Racist skinhead Wade Michael Page opened fire at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, killing six people and wounding four others, including a police officer responding to the shootings.

LaPlace, Louisiana, August 2012: A pair of ambushes by a group of sovereign citizens left two St. John the Baptist Sheriff’s deputies dead and two other deputies seriously injured.

Boston, Massachusetts, January 2009: White supremacist Keith Luke embarked upon a spree of murderous violence against ethnic and religious minorities in the Boston area in early 2009. He raped and shot an African immigrant, and shot and killed her sister, who had tried to help her. Shortly thereafter, he shot and killed a homeless African immigrant. Although he planned to go to a synagogue that evening to kill as many Jews as possible, then commit suicide, police intercepted him before he could do so.

Washington, D. C., June 2009: White supremacist James von Brunn attacked the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., entering the facility and opening fire on security guards inside, shooting and killing one of them.

Knoxville, Tennessee, July 2008: Right-wing extremist Jim David Adkisson killed two people and seriously wounded six when he opened fire on the congregation of a Unitarian Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Expecting to die during the attack, Adkisson left behind a racist and homophobic suicide note which detailed his desire

to kill liberals and Democrats.

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, April 2000: During a racially motivated shooting rampage that targeted ethnic and religious minorities, white supremacist Richard Baumhammers of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, shot and killed five people, including an Indian man, a Vietnamese immigrant, a Chinese immigrant, an African-American man, and a Jewish woman. Baumhammers also fired shots into two Jewish synagogues.

Chicago, Illinois, July 1999: During the weekend of July 2-4, 1998, white supremacist Benjamin Smith, a member of the World Church of the Creator, embarked upon a three-day, two-state shooting spree, targeting racial and religious minorities. He killed two people and wounded eleven.

Los Angeles, California, August 1999: White supremacist Buford Furrow, a member of Aryan Nations, traveled from Tacoma, Washington, to Los Angeles, California, where he opened fire inside a Jewish day care center, injuring three children and two employees. Later that day, Furrow shot dead a Filipino-American postal worker.

Olmito, Texas, July 1998: Two anti-government extremists, Jack Abbot Grebe, Jr., and Jonnie Wise, associated with the anti-government Republic of Texas group, conspired to use biological weapons to kill federal officials, including President Clinton, and the directors of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Internal Revenue service.
https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/CR_5154_25YRS RightWing Terrorism_V5.pdf

I don't see how it's possible for someone to look at the examples above and the evidence that clearly shows that right wing extremist incidents have out numbered Islamic extremists incidents in the US for decades and they not be concerned about right-wing extremism.

Most of these incidents resulted in no deaths. Some only resulted in injury....and still others took place before 9/11.

The criteria that you keep using to prop up your claim switches every other post. Do you seriously want to compare the threat that right wing extremism poses with the threat radical Islam poses? I'm more than happy to do this with you....because I think it could be very informative for you....but we need to agree on what things should be counted and what shouldn't.

Here's my criteria....and if you disagree with a point, then explain why and how you would change it. Fair enough? Once we agree, we can come up with some fair numbers for which is morr dangerous.

1. It has to be a physical attack (not going to consider cyberattacks) that is motivated by ideology. That ideology has to have some connection to a group of extremists....no matter how loose the connection...who promote violence. Make sense? If some shouts something racial before killing someone of another race....that doesn't make them a right wing extremist. It makes them racist, but there's a ton of racists on the left these days too. In short, there needs to be both motivation driven by ideology...and some connection to that ideology.

2. Let's not count anyone clearly exhibiting signs of mental illness. If the words they speak aren't coherent or they hear voices or believe in some bizzare delusions about the government or some conspiracy....don't include them. If they need to be medicated in order to stand trial...that's a good indicator of illness. Why are we not counting them? Because their motives are uncertain.

3. I'm willing to count injuries. Many times people are seriously wounded and it leaves them with lasting problems. I'm talking about physical injuries though....not mental/emotional unless they resulted from physical injuries.

4. I'm willing to count failed attempts if you want to....or not. I can rake it or leave it. I would like to point out though that they must have resulted in an arrest so we know about the perpetrator.....I'm not going to entertain speculation.

5. They must be attacks on US citizens on US soil or property. Obviously, killed on an airplane or boat counts....as long as they were American. What doesn't count is an American getting killed at a concert overseas....since the primary targets aren't Americans and we're looking at the danger to Americans.

6. I think we should go back at least 20 years to have the full picture of the modern terrorist threat....though if you'd like to extend it further to include a big event like the Oklahoma City bombing, I'm ok with that....just state what time period you want to examine and why.


Does that sound like a fair criteria to you? If we are comparing the modern threat of Muslim extremism and right wing extremism....I think that is a pretty fair criteria.

If you disagree with any point though, or would alter or add any of the criteria....just say what you would change and why.
 
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JosephZ

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The criteria that you keep using to prop up your claim switches every other post.
That's because I keep having to adjust the examples I use based on your excuses as to why some incidents should be counted and why others shouldn't (ie. You keep moving the goal posts). Legitimate studies use the same criteria, whether they appear to be clear cut or not, and similar examples can be found in both right wing and Islamic extremist incidents.

Here's my criteria....and if you disagree with a point, then explain why and how you would change it. Fair enough?
Fair enough.

Does that sound like a fair criteria to you? If we are comparing the modern threat of Muslim extremism and right wing extremism....I think that is a pretty fair criteria.

If you disagree with any point though, or would alter or add any of the criteria....just say what you would change and why.
I suggest we start on September 12, 2001 and end with December 31, 2018 since 9/11 was a Black Swan event. If you include the deaths that occurred on 9/11 in an attempt to determine risk it distorts reality.

Here is my list based on your criteria. After going through more than 300 incidents that involved extremists in the US that took place during that time frame, I only included those with deaths and injuries involved and I did not include disrupted plots.

Islamic Extremist Attacks (23):

12/11/2017: A suicide bomber detonated explosives at Port Authority Bus Terminal between Seventh and Eighth Avenue in Manhatta, New York City, New York, United States. In addition to the assailant, three civilians were injured in the blast. Akayed Ullah, a jihadi-inspired extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated "They've been bombing in my country and I wanted to do damage here," and "I did it for the Islamic State."

10/31/2017: An assailant driving a Home Depot rental truck entered a bike path in an attempt to run over civilians on the West Side Highway in Lower Manhattan, New York City, United States. Following the initial attack, the assailant exited the vehicle and was shot by a police officer after displaying imitation firearms. At least eight people, including two citizens from the United States, five Argentinian tourists, and one Belgian tourist, were killed and 13 other people, including the assailant, were injured in the attack. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) claimed that the assailant, identified as Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov, was "one of the caliphate soldiers;" however, sources doubted the veracity of this claim. Authorities also recovered a note from the vehicle in which Saipov pledged allegiance to ISIL."

05/19/2017: An assailant, identified as Devon Arthurs, shot and killed Jeremy Himmelman and Andrew Oneschuk at their shared apartment in Tampa, Florida, United States. This was one of two attacks by Arthurs on the same day. Arthurs claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he had targeted Himmelman and Oneschuk, who were two of his roommates as well as alleged neo-Nazis and fellow members of the Atomwaffen Division, because they had "disrespected" his conversion to Islam in the year prior to the attack. He also made statements that he was frustrated about global anti-Muslim sentiment and United States airstrikes in the Muslim world."

01/31/2017: An assailant shot and killed Scott Von Lanken, a transit security guard, near Union Station in Denver, Colorado, United States. Joshua Cummings, a Muslim extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he carried out the attack "for the pleasure of Allah." Cummings pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) after his arrest, but he claimed that the attack was not in the name of ISIL."

11/28/2016: An assailant rammed his vehicle into a group of students and stabbed bystanders at Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio, United States. At least 11 people were injured before a nearby police officer shot and killed the assailant. The assailant, identified as Abdul Razak Ali Artan, wrote on his Facebook page prior to the attack, "If you want us Muslims to stop carrying lone wolf attacks, then make peace with the Islamic State group." The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) also claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Artan's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed."

09/17/2016: An assailant stabbed and injured 10 people at the Crossroads Center shopping mall in St. Cloud, Minnesota, United States. The assailant, identified as Dahir Ahmed Adan, was shot and killed by a police officer. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Adan's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed.

09/17/2016: An explosive device detonated in the Chelsea neighborhood of Manhattan, New York City, United States. At least 29 people were injured in the blast. Ahmad Khan Rahami claimed responsibility for this incident and three similar bombings that occurred between September 17 and September 18, 2016 in New York and New Jersey. Sources suspected that Rahami may have been inspired by Abu Muhammad al Adnani, a spokesperson for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). Sources also noted that Rahami admired Osama bin Laden and Anwar al-Awlaki in his journal.

06/12/2016: An assailant armed with an assault rifle and a handgun opened fire on customers at Pulse, a gay nightclub, in Orlando, Florida, United States. The assailant then held an unknown number of people hostage inside the nightclub for three hours. At least 49 people were killed and 53 people were injured during the attack before the assailant was killed by police officers, who also rescued 30 hostages. The assailant, identified as Omar Mateen, had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). Additionally, Mateen stated that he carried out the attack in retaliation for U.S. airstrikes in Iraq and Syria. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) also claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Omar Mateen's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed.

02/11/2016: A machete-wielding assailant attacked and wounded four people in Nazareth Restaurant & Deli in Columbus, Ohio, United States. Police shot and killed the assailant after he fled the restaurant. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however sources identified the assailant as Mohamed Barry, who shouted "Allahu Akbar" immediately before the attack."

01/07/2016: An assailant shot and injured police officer Jesse Hartnett in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States. Hartnett returned fire and injured the assailant as he attempted to flee. The assailant, identified as Edward Archer, stated that he carried out the attack "in the name of Islam." Archer also pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL)."

12/02/2015: Two assailants opened fire on a holiday party at the Inland Regional Center for disabled people in San Bernardino, California, United States. The assailants also attempted to trigger an explosive device, which failed to detonate. Fourteen people were killed and at least 17 people were injured in the attack. Both assailants, identified as Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, fled the scene but were located and killed in a shootout with police later the same day. No group claimed responsibility for the incident.

07/16/2015: An assailant opened fire on the Navy Operational Support Center in Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States. Five military personnel and the assailant were killed and two people, including a police officer and a Marine recruiter, were injured in the attack. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant within a short period of time; before targeting the support center, the assailant had opened fire on a recruiting office. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, the assailant was later identified as Mohammad Youssuf Abdulazeez.

05/03/2015: Two assailants opened fire on the Curtis Culwell Center, which was hosting an exhibition of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, in Garland, Texas, United States. The assailants were killed and a security guard wounded in the attack. The assailants were identified as Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi and had claimed response for the attack in twitter statements before the shooting.

06/25/2014: Assailants shot and killed Brendan Tevlin as he was stopped at a traffic signal in West Orange, New Jersey, United States. Police later arrested three suspects, including Ali Muhammad Brown, in connection with the case. Authorities claim that Brown committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges in connection with two separate attacks that occurred earlier in the year in Skywalk and Seattle, which are both located in the state of Washington.

06/01/2014: An assailant shot and killed two civilians in Seattle, Washington, United States. Prosecutors later indicted Ali Muhammad Brown for the murders of the two victims. Brown claimed responsibility for the incident, stating that he committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges for two similar attacks that occurred in Washington and New Jersey states in 2014.

04/27/2014: An assailant shot and killed a civilian, Leroy Henderson in Skyway neighborhood, Seattle, Washington, United States. Prosecutors later indicted Ali Muhammad Brown for the murder of Henderson. Authorities claim that Brown committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges for two similar attacks that occurred in Washington and New Jersey in 2014.

04/19/2013: Police thwarted a potential bomb attack when they engaged in a firefight with the alleged assailants of the Boston Marathon bombings, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, in Watertown, Massachusetts, United States. Shortly after hijacking a civilian vehicle, the suspects were confronted by police, leading to a firefight that resulted in the death of Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and 16 police officers were injured in the exchange. One of the injured officers, Dennis Simmonds, succumbed to his injuries on April 10, 2014. During the encounter, the suspects hurled explosives at the officers. It was later revealed that the Tsarnaev brothers were plotting to use the explosives to carry out an attack in an unconfirmed location.

04/18/2013: A Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) police officer, Sean Collier, was shot and killed by gunmen on the MIT campus in Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States. The suspected assailants of the attack were later identified as Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who are believed to also be responsible for the double bomb attack near the finish line of the Boston Marathon that took place on April 15, 2013.

04/15/2013: An explosive device consisting of a pressure cooker, nails, BBs, and a detonator fashioned from the remote control of a toy car went off near the finish line of the Boston Marathon on Boylston Street in the Back Bay neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts, United States. This was the second of two similar bombs that detonated approximately 12 seconds and 100 yards apart. The detonation of second device, which was located near Forum Restaurant, killed spectators Martin Richard and Lingzi Lu. Approximately 264 others were wounded in the two attacks. The alleged assailants of the blasts were later identified as Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, brothers who immigrated to the United States from Russia in 2002 and 2003.

12/25/2009: On Friday morning, in Detroit, Michigan, United States, as the plane was approaching the destination, a would-be suicide bomber, identified as Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a 23-year-old Nigerian national, on board of Northwest Flight 253 from Amsterdam, Netherlands detonated a device that was attached to his body while on the plane. The bomb was a six inch packet of high explosives containing pentaerythritol, Triacetone Triperoxide, other materials and a syringe. The explosives were sewn into his underwear.

"06/01/2009: An assailant opened fire on soldiers outside of a military recruiting station in the Santa Fe Heights suburb of Little Rock, Arkansas, United States. One soldier, identified as William Long, was killed and a second soldier, identified as Quinton Ezeagwula, was injured in the assault. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant overnight. Upon his arrest Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad stated that he had intended to kill as many military personnel as possible. He denied any affilitation with known organizations but later recanted, claiming that he was a soldier for Al-Qa ida and that the attack on the military recruiting station was "a Jihadi attack."

"3/3/2006: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar rented a Jeep Cherokee and drove it through a crowed of people gathered in "The Pit" on the University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill campus in North Carolina, United States. His intention was to hurt or kill people in order to "avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world."

07/04/2002: Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, an Egyptian-born man, opened fired at the El Al Israeli Airlines ticket counter at the Los Angeles Airport (LAX), killing two people and wounding four others. Hadayet was killed by security personnel during the attack. Early reports from police and witnesses recount that Hadayet shot the El Al ticket agent, turned his weapon on passengers in line, was then tackled and subdued by a guard who was reportedly stabbed by Hadayet, and was finally shot at by an El Al security guard. CNN reports that US authorities believed that Hadayet espoused anti-Israeli views, opposed US policies in the Middle East, and conducted the attack in the efforts of being a martyr. The victims of the attack were all reportedly Israeli.

Continued in next post...
 
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Right Wing Extremist Attacks (32)

10/27/2018: White supremacist Robert Bowers murdered 11 people and injured seven more, including four police officers, during services at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, Pa. Bowers was a virulent anti-Semite who, among other things, blamed Jews for orchestrating the immigration of non-whites into the United States.

1/02/2018: Scott Paul Beierle opened fire at a yoga studio in Tallahassee, Florida killing two people and wounding four others by gun-fire and a fifth by pistol-whipping before killing himself. Beierle had posted videos to social media containing racist and misogynistic commentary, expressing hostility towards women who engaged in interracial relationships and referring admiringly to misogynistic killer Elliott Rodger.


02/14/2018. Nikolas Cruz launched a deadly shooting spree at his former high school in Parkland, Florida. Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, killing 17 people and wounding 17 more. According to CNN, Cruz, 19, belonged to a racist Instagram group and hated blacks and Jews, even claiming Jews wanted to destroy the world. Cruz also allegedly referred to women who engaged in interracial relationships as “traitors.”

12/07/2017: An assailant, identified as William Atchison, opened fire on students at Aztec High School in Aztec, New Mexico, United States. The assailant shot and killed two students and fired multiple shots at a locked classroom before shooting and killing himself. Statements Atchinson made in his suicide note and posted online reflect a fixation on mass shootings, as well as a misogynist and white supremacist narrative referenced in message forums where participants self-identify as "involuntarily celibate" (incel)."

10/08/2017: Around 11:00 p.m.m two assailants shouting racial slurs and white supremacist statements attacked a black man in Spokane, Washington, United States. The assailants attacked Norris Cooley, pointed a handgun at him, and fired at least six shots into Cooley's occupied home. The two unaffiliated individuals, identified as Jason Edward Cooper and Donald Lucas Prichard, white extremists, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated racial slurs during the attack.

08/12/2017: An assailant drove his vehicle into a crowd of counter-protesters at the intersection of 4th Street and Water Street in Charlottesville, Virginia, United States. One person, identified as Heather D. Heyer, was killed and 19 people were injured in the assault. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, police arrested James Alex Fields Jr., a neo-Nazi extremist, in connection with the attack.

05/26/2017: An assailant armed with a knife shouted racial and religious slurs at two passengers on a MAX light rail train in Portland, Oregon, United States. The assailant then stabbed three passengers who attempted to intervene. Rick John Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche were killed and Micah David-Cole Fletcher was injured in the attack. Jeremy Joseph Christian, an anti-Muslim extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that "Muslims should die" during the attack."

04/28/2017: An assailant equipped with a machete entered a cafe at Transylvania University in Lexington, Kentucky, United States. The assailant asked customers about their political affiliation and stabbed civilians who identified as Democrats, injuring two people. The assailant also suffered self-inflicted injuries before being arrested by police. Mitchell Adkins, a right-wing extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and had previously written an online post complaining of discrimination against conservatives on college campuses.

03/20/2017: An assailant stabbed Timothy Caughman with a sword in Chelsea neighborhood, New York City, United States. Caughman, an African-American civilian, was killed in the attack. James Harris Jackson, a white extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he targeted Caughman in order to persuade white women against interracial relationships.

02/22/2017: An assailant opened fire on two Indian civilians at a bar in Olathe, Kansas, United States. Srinivas Kuchibhotla was killed and Alok Madasani was injured in the attack. In addition, Ian Grillot, a United States citizen, was shot and injured when he tried to intervene. Adam W. Purinton, a white extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he had killed "two Middle Eastern persons." Moreover, prior to the attack Purinton screamed "get out of my country" at the victims."

02/28/2016: Three assailants armed with knives attacked a group of Hispanic teenagers playing soccer at Stephen Sorensen Park in Lake Los Angeles, California, United States. At least two people suffered minor injuries in the assault. The three assailants, identified as Ian Justine Plankey, Richard Lawrence Daulton, and Kevin Matthew Stewart, were arrested following the incident. During the attack, they shouted white supremacist statements and racial slurs, including "Heil Hitler, AV Skins."

12/05/2015: An assailant assaulted a Muslim store clerk at Fatima Food Mart in Queens, New York City, United States. The clerk was injured in the attack. No group claimed responsibility; however, an assailant, identified as Piro Kolvani, said "I kill Muslims" during the attack and was later arrested."

11/27/2015: An assailant opened fire on a Planned Parenthood clinic and held an unknown number of people hostage for five hours in Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States. At least three people were killed and nine other people were wounded in the assault. An individual, identified as Robert Lewis Dear, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he was a "warrior for the babies."

11/23/2015: Assailants opened fire on a Black Lives Matter rally in Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States. Five people were injured in the attack. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, sources attributed the attack to Sovereign Citizen and white supremacists.

11/06/2015: An assailant attacked a Sikh bus driver in Inglewood, California, United States. The driver, identified as Balwinder Jit Singh, was injured in the attack. An individual identified as K.C. Tard Jr. claimed responsibility for the incident and called Singh a "terrorist" and a "suicide bomber."

10/01/2015: An assailant, identified as Christopher Harper-Mercer, entered a classroom at Umpqua Community College and held an unknown number of students and staff hostage in Roseburg, Oregon, United States. Armed with six firearms, the assailant shot and killed nine people and injured at least seven others. He exchanged fire with responding police officers before shooting and killing himself. Statements Harper-Mercer made in his manifesto and posted online reflect a fixation on mass shootings, as well as a misogynist and white supremacist narrative seen in message forums where participants self-identify as "involuntarily celibate" (incel)."

07/23/2015: An assailant opened fire on the audience before killing himself at a screening of the movie Trainwreck in Lafayette, Louisiana, United States. At least three people, including the assailant, were killed and nine other people were injured in the assault. An individual, identified as John Russell Houser, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he carried out the attack with the intention that it would harm the United States (US) economy.

09/12/2014: An assailant opened fire at state troopers at the barracks in Blooming Grove, Pennsylvania, United States. One trooper was killed and another was wounded in the attack. A lone individual, Eric Frein, claimed responsibility for the incident. In a letter he wrote to his parents, Frein indicated that he was looking to spark a revolution against the government.

06/08/2014: Two assailants ambushed two police officers eating at a restaurant and attacked a nearby Walmart in Las Vegas, Nevada, United States. At least five people, including two officers, a bystander, and two assailants, were killed in the attack. Jerad and Amanda Miller claimed responsibility for the incident and proclaimed that the shooting had provoked a revolution against authority figures. On social media, the assailants also decried the federal government, taxes, and anti-gun laws.

06/06/2014: An assailant, identified as Dennis Marx, opened fire on the Forsyth County Courthouse in Cumming, Georgia, United States. In addition to handguns and an AR-15 rifle, Marx was armed with tire spikes, smoke bombs, homemade explosives, and grenades. Sheriff's Deputy Daniel Rush was injured in the attack and Marx was shot and killed by law enforcement officers before he was able to enter the courthouse. Marx self-identified as belonging to the Sovereign Citizen movement.

05/23/2014: An assailant, identified as Elliot Rodger, drove several blocks to various locations near the University of California, Santa Barbara, campus, shooting at and running into victims with his car in Isla Vista, California, United States. At least three people were killed and 13 other people were injured in the assault. The attack ended when he shot and killed himself. This was one of two coordinated incidents carried out by the same assailant in Isla Vista on the same day. Rodger posted videos on the internet and wrote a lengthy manifesto detailing his plans and motivations for the attack. His ideology reflected a misogynist and white supremacist narrative seen in online message forums where participants self-identify as "involuntarily celibate" (incel)."

04/13/2014: An assailant opened fire on civilians outside a Jewish retirement home in Overland Park, Kansas, United States. At least one person was killed in the assault. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant within a few minutes. Frazier Glenn Cross claimed responsibility for the incidents and stated that he intended to target members of the Jewish community.

04/13/2014: An assailant opened fire on civilians outside a Jewish community center in Overland Park, Kansas, United States. At least two people were killed in the assault. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant within a few minutes. Frazier Glenn Cross claimed responsibility for the incidents and stated that he intended to target members of the Jewish community.

11/01/2013: An assailant opened fire on Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agents inside Terminal 3 at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) in Los Angeles, California, United States. At least one agent was killed and four others, including agents and civilians, were wounded in the assault. TSA agents returned fire and injured the assailant. Paul Ciancia claimed responsibility for the incident, stating, in a note found in his apartment, that he wanted to kill and to instill fear in TSA officers.

08/05/2012: Wade Michael Page attacked a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, United States. At least six people were killed and four others wounded before Page was shot by a responding police officer and subsequently died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, the assailant was a member of a white supremacist organization.

06/18/2012: An assailant attempted to bomb a natural gas pipeline in Plano, Texas, United States. The assailant was critically injured when the explosive device detonated prematurely. Additionally, the pipeline was also damaged in the blast. No group claimed responsibility; however, sources note that Anson Chi identified as part of the anti-government Sovereign Citizen movement.

01/11/2012: Assailants threw incendiary devices at Temple Beth El on Montross Avenue in Rutherford, New Jersey, United States. At least one person was injured in the attack. No group claimed responsibility; however, Anthony M. Graziano and Aakash Dalal were arrested and charged in connection with the incident.

I'm more than happy to do this with you....because I think it could be very informative for you....
As can be seen by the lists above, both right wing and Islamic extremists are equally as dangerous and an equal amount of concern should be given to both.

Now it's your turn.
 
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That's because I keep having to adjust the examples I use based on your excuses as to why some incidents should be counted and why others shouldn't (ie. You keep moving the goal posts). Legitimate studies use the same criteria, whether they appear to be clear cut or not, and similar examples can be found in both right wing and Islamic extremist incidents.

Gimme a break....I keep moving the goalposts?

It's a claim made by you and the ADL (and others on the left). You're claiming that "right wing extremism" is as dangerous as Islamic extremism...not me. It's not my fault that you're reaching for examples of kids visiting a website (supposedly) as a "right wing extremist". All I'm trying to do is compare similar events with different motives. It's you and the ADL who take any example of a hate crime....or in some cases, just a white guy who goes on a shooting spree, and then magically claim it's "right wing extremism". I'm just trying to be intellectually honest.


I suggest we start on September 12, 2001 and end with December 31, 2018 since 9/11 was a Black Swan event. If you include the deaths that occurred on 9/11 in an attempt to determine risk it distorts reality.

I'll agree to the time space you want to look at....but I don't agree with your reasoning. After all, we are trying to compare the threat of one type if extremism to another....so why wouldn't we count 9/11? Because it was too successful? What's the reasoning behind that?

The only reason I can see to not count it is so you can make arguments like this one....without them getting shot down immediately.

For the sake of discussion though....let's take a look at the list you got.

Here is my list based on your criteria. After going through more than 300 incidents that involved extremists in the US that took place during that time frame, I only included those with deaths and injuries involved and I did not include disrupted plots.

Islamic Extremist Attacks (23):

12/11/2017: A suicide bomber detonated explosives at Port Authority Bus Terminal between Seventh and Eighth Avenue in Manhatta, New York City, New York, United States. In addition to the assailant, three civilians were injured in the blast. Akayed Ullah, a jihadi-inspired extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated "They've been bombing in my country and I wanted to do damage here," and "I did it for the Islamic State."


I found 5 injured.

'Failed' pipe bomber guilty of terror charges

10/31/2017: An assailant driving a Home Depot rental truck entered a bike path in an attempt to run over civilians on the West Side Highway in Lower Manhattan, New York City, United States. Following the initial attack, the assailant exited the vehicle and was shot by a police officer after displaying imitation firearms. At least eight people, including two citizens from the United States, five Argentinian tourists, and one Belgian tourist, were killed and 13 other people, including the assailant, were injured in the attack. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) claimed that the assailant, identified as Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov, was "one of the caliphate soldiers;" however, sources doubted the veracity of this claim. Authorities also recovered a note from the vehicle in which Saipov pledged allegiance to ISIL."

8 killed, 12 injured.


05/19/2017: An assailant, identified as Devon Arthurs, shot and killed Jeremy Himmelman and Andrew Oneschuk at their shared apartment in Tampa, Florida, United States. This was one of two attacks by Arthurs on the same day. Arthurs claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he had targeted Himmelman and Oneschuk, who were two of his roommates as well as alleged neo-Nazis and fellow members of the Atomwaffen Division, because they had "disrespected" his conversion to Islam in the year prior to the attack. He also made statements that he was frustrated about global anti-Muslim sentiment and United States airstrikes in the Muslim world."

I'm not counting this one....he was declared unfit for trial, had to be treated to stand trial.

Tampa Palms man charged in neo-Nazi double murder to stay in state mental hospital for treatment until competent to stand trial

Again, it's the motivation that matters here and since he's unfit, I don't think it's fair to say his beliefs are the big factor.

01/31/2017: An assailant shot and killed Scott Von Lanken, a transit security guard, near Union Station in Denver, Colorado, United States. Joshua Cummings, a Muslim extremist, claimed responsibility for the incident and stated that he carried out the attack "for the pleasure of Allah." Cummings pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) after his arrest, but he claimed that the attack was not in the name of ISIL."

1 killed.

11/28/2016: An assailant rammed his vehicle into a group of students and stabbed bystanders at Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio, United States. At least 11 people were injured before a nearby police officer shot and killed the assailant. The assailant, identified as Abdul Razak Ali Artan, wrote on his Facebook page prior to the attack, "If you want us Muslims to stop carrying lone wolf attacks, then make peace with the Islamic State group." The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) also claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Artan's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed."

I found 13 injured.

09/17/2016: An assailant stabbed and injured 10 people at the Crossroads Center shopping mall in St. Cloud, Minnesota, United States. The assailant, identified as Dahir Ahmed Adan, was shot and killed by a police officer. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Adan's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed.

10 injured...it's a little iffy, but the experts think he was radicalized.

09/17/2016: An explosive device detonated in the Chelsea neighborhood of Manhattan, New York City, United States. At least 29 people were injured in the blast. Ahmad Khan Rahami claimed responsibility for this incident and three similar bombings that occurred between September 17 and September 18, 2016 in New York and New Jersey. Sources suspected that Rahami may have been inspired by Abu Muhammad al Adnani, a spokesperson for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). Sources also noted that Rahami admired Osama bin Laden and Anwar al-Awlaki in his journal.

34 injured.

06/12/2016: An assailant armed with an assault rifle and a handgun opened fire on customers at Pulse, a gay nightclub, in Orlando, Florida, United States. The assailant then held an unknown number of people hostage inside the nightclub for three hours. At least 49 people were killed and 53 people were injured during the attack before the assailant was killed by police officers, who also rescued 30 hostages. The assailant, identified as Omar Mateen, had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). Additionally, Mateen stated that he carried out the attack in retaliation for U.S. airstrikes in Iraq and Syria. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) also claimed responsibility for the incident; however, Omar Mateen's connection to ISIL could not be confirmed.

49 killed, 53 injured.

02/11/2016: A machete-wielding assailant attacked and wounded four people in Nazareth Restaurant & Deli in Columbus, Ohio, United States. Police shot and killed the assailant after he fled the restaurant. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however sources identified the assailant as Mohamed Barry, who shouted "Allahu Akbar" immediately before the attack."

4 injured.

01/07/2016: An assailant shot and injured police officer Jesse Hartnett in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States. Hartnett returned fire and injured the assailant as he attempted to flee. The assailant, identified as Edward Archer, stated that he carried out the attack "in the name of Islam." Archer also pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL)."

1 injured

12/02/2015: Two assailants opened fire on a holiday party at the Inland Regional Center for disabled people in San Bernardino, California, United States. The assailants also attempted to trigger an explosive device, which failed to detonate. Fourteen people were killed and at least 17 people were injured in the attack. Both assailants, identified as Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, fled the scene but were located and killed in a shootout with police later the same day. No group claimed responsibility for the incident.

14 killed, 22 injured.

07/16/2015: An assailant opened fire on the Navy Operational Support Center in Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States. Five military personnel and the assailant were killed and two people, including a police officer and a Marine recruiter, were injured in the attack. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant within a short period of time; before targeting the support center, the assailant had opened fire on a recruiting office. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, the assailant was later identified as Mohammad Youssuf Abdulazeez.

5 killed, 2 injured

05/03/2015: Two assailants opened fire on the Curtis Culwell Center, which was hosting an exhibition of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, in Garland, Texas, United States. The assailants were killed and a security guard wounded in the attack. The assailants were identified as Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi and had claimed response for the attack in twitter statements before the shooting.

1 injured.

06/25/2014: Assailants shot and killed Brendan Tevlin as he was stopped at a traffic signal in West Orange, New Jersey, United States. Police later arrested three suspects, including Ali Muhammad Brown, in connection with the case. Authorities claim that Brown committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges in connection with two separate attacks that occurred earlier in the year in Skywalk and Seattle, which are both located in the state of Washington.
06/01/2014: An assailant shot and killed two civilians in Seattle, Washington, United States. Prosecutors later indicted Ali Muhammad Brown for the murders of the two victims. Brown claimed responsibility for the incident, stating that he committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges for two similar attacks that occurred in Washington and New Jersey states in 2014.

04/27/2014: An assailant shot and killed a civilian, Leroy Henderson in Skyway neighborhood, Seattle, Washington, United States. Prosecutors later indicted Ali Muhammad Brown for the murder of Henderson. Authorities claim that Brown committed the act to punish the United States for its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Brown has been indicted on murder charges for two similar attacks that occurred in Washington and New Jersey in 2014.


4 killed.

04/19/2013: Police thwarted a potential bomb attack when they engaged in a firefight with the alleged assailants of the Boston Marathon bombings, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, in Watertown, Massachusetts, United States. Shortly after hijacking a civilian vehicle, the suspects were confronted by police, leading to a firefight that resulted in the death of Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and 16 police officers were injured in the exchange. One of the injured officers, Dennis Simmonds, succumbed to his injuries on April 10, 2014. During the encounter, the suspects hurled explosives at the officers. It was later revealed that the Tsarnaev brothers were plotting to use the explosives to carry out an attack in an unconfirmed location.

1 killed, 16 injured.

04/18/2013: A Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) police officer, Sean Collier, was shot and killed by gunmen on the MIT campus in Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States. The suspected assailants of the attack were later identified as Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who are believed to also be responsible for the double bomb attack near the finish line of the Boston Marathon that took place on April 15, 2013.

1 killed.

04/15/2013: An explosive device consisting of a pressure cooker, nails, BBs, and a detonator fashioned from the remote control of a toy car went off near the finish line of the Boston Marathon on Boylston Street in the Back Bay neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts, United States. This was the second of two similar bombs that detonated approximately 12 seconds and 100 yards apart. The detonation of second device, which was located near Forum Restaurant, killed spectators Martin Richard and Lingzi Lu. Approximately 264 others were wounded in the two attacks. The alleged assailants of the blasts were later identified as Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, brothers who immigrated to the United States from Russia in 2002 and 2003
.
3 killed, 264 injured.

12/25/2009: On Friday morning, in Detroit, Michigan, United States, as the plane was approaching the destination, a would-be suicide bomber, identified as Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a 23-year-old Nigerian national, on board of Northwest Flight 253 from Amsterdam, Netherlands detonated a device that was attached to his body while on the plane. The bomb was a six inch packet of high explosives containing pentaerythritol, Triacetone Triperoxide, other materials and a syringe. The explosives were sewn into his underwear.

Failed attempt...not counted.

"06/01/2009: An assailant opened fire on soldiers outside of a military recruiting station in the Santa Fe Heights suburb of Little Rock, Arkansas, United States. One soldier, identified as William Long, was killed and a second soldier, identified as Quinton Ezeagwula, was injured in the assault. This was one of two attacks carried out by the same assailant overnight. Upon his arrest Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad stated that he had intended to kill as many military personnel as possible. He denied any affilitation with known organizations but later recanted, claiming that he was a soldier for Al-Qa ida and that the attack on the military recruiting station was "a Jihadi attack."

1 killed, 1injured

"3/3/2006: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar rented a Jeep Cherokee and drove it through a crowed of people gathered in "The Pit" on the University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill campus in North Carolina, United States. His intention was to hurt or kill people in order to "avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world."

9 injured.

07/04/2002: Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, an Egyptian-born man, opened fired at the El Al Israeli Airlines ticket counter at the Los Angeles Airport (LAX), killing two people and wounding four others. Hadayet was killed by security personnel during the attack. Early reports from police and witnesses recount that Hadayet shot the El Al ticket agent, turned his weapon on passengers in line, was then tackled and subdued by a guard who was reportedly stabbed by Hadayet, and was finally shot at by an El Al security guard. CNN reports that US authorities believed that Hadayet espoused anti-Israeli views, opposed US policies in the Middle East, and conducted the attack in the efforts of being a martyr. The victims of the attack were all reportedly Israeli.

2 killed, 4 injured.

I'm also going to count the attacks on US embassies in Libya and Turkey during this time frame that resulted in 5 deaths...I don't know how many injuries. They were attacks on US soil, with the intent of killing US citizens....so they count.

I'm not sure why the Ft Hood massacre isn't included....that's another 14 deaths and 33 injuries though.

That's 108 deaths....485 injured.

I'll go through the other list tomorrow.
 
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JosephZ

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I'll agree to the time space you want to look at....but I don't agree with your reasoning. After all, we are trying to compare the threat of one type if extremism to another....so why wouldn't we count 9/11? Because it was too successful? What's the reasoning behind that?
Here is how I explained the reasoning behind not including the events of 9/11 earlier in the thread.

9/11 was a Black Swan event, it was and outlier and has to be removed to make a fair assessment of the risks posed by Islamic extremists in the US. If you include the deaths that occurred on 9/11 in an attempt to determine risk it distorts reality. This is why you see every legitimate and unbiased study on extremism remove the number of deaths that occurred on 9/11 from their data sets. It would actually be dubious to include those deaths, because someone could then make the claim that they are much more likely to be killed by an Islamic extremist in the US because they have killed 7 times more people than right-wing extremists. While it's true that Islamic extremists have killed seven times more people, it is not true that a person in the US is more likely to be killed by an Islamic extremist than a right-wing extremist because more people have been killed by Islamic extremists, there are other factors that have to be taken into account. When you remove the outliers like the events of 9/11 on the side of Islamic extremism, and also the Oklahoma City Bombing on the side of right-wing extremism, you get a more fair and accurate comparison between the two.
Let's say hypothetically that there were 50 events resulting in 3,500 deaths from terrorism in the US between 1990 and 2009 and 3,000 of those deaths occurred in a single event. This would come to an average of 200 deaths per year during that 20 year period. This doesn't give an accurate picture of the truth because the data is being distorted by a single event. This is why black swans and extreme events are removed from data sets. Looking at the same 20 year period and removing the single "black swan" event, we have an average of 25 deaths per year which would be a more accurate representation of what takes place on any given year during that time frame.

Risk is best determined by the number of events since this measures how likely it will be that you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. In both of the examples, there would have been 50 and 49 events counted respectively. While it may be true that around 90% of the deaths from terrorism on US soil have been at the hands of Islamic extremists, body count doesn't increase or decrease the risk of an individual becoming a victim of a terrorist attack at any certain time or place.

The only reason I can see to not count it is so you can make arguments like this one....without them getting shot down immediately.
The only reason to include it in comparing right wing and Islamic terrorism would be to push an agenda or a false narrative. It would work the same if someone were comparing the risks between left-wing and right-wing extremism. Using the high number of casualties that took place during the Oklahoma city bombing would distort reality in comparing the two.

If you simply want to know which group has been deadlier in the past, then yes, you can count the total number of deaths to come to that conclusion; but it doesn't make one type of extremists any more or less dangerous than the other, nor does it increase or decrease the chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and becoming a victim in the future.

I'm not sure why the Ft Hood massacre isn't included....that's another 14 deaths and 33 injuries though.
That one should have been included in my list. I reviewed over 300 incidents and it was an over site on my part.
 
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JosephZ

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You're claiming that "right wing extremism" is as dangerous as Islamic extremism...not me.
Which is more dangerous to you?

A right-wing extremist deciding to walk into a mosque and open fire on those inside, or a an Islamic extremist deciding to walk into a church and open fire?

A right-wing extremist possessing components for a chemical weapon or dirty bomb with the intent of killing as many people as possible, or an Islamic extremists possessing the components for a chemical weapon or a dirty bomb with the intent of killing as many people as possible?

In a study conducted by the Homeland Security Research Division of the RAND Corporation, it was determined that from 1995 to 2012 there were 150 plots and terrorist incidents against the United States. 40% were planned or carried out by Islamic extremists and another 40% were planned or carried out by right-wing extremists. The remaining 20% had other motivations. Which group is the most dangerous?

It's you and the ADL who take any example of a hate crime....or in some cases, just a white guy who goes on a shooting spree, and then magically claim it's "right wing extremism".
I'm using data from Global Terrorism Data Base provided by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism. Hate crimes and ambiguous cases were excluded from my examples.

I'm just trying to be intellectually honest.
So am I. I always work really hard at trying to be intellectually honest and I try my best to present trustworthy and reliable information.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Here is how I explained the reasoning behind not including the events of 9/11 earlier in the thread.

I read it.

Let's say hypothetically that there were 50 events resulting in 3,500 deaths from terrorism in the US between 1990 and 2009 and 3,000 of those deaths occurred in a single event. This would come to an average of 200 deaths per year during that 20 year period. This doesn't give an accurate picture of the truth because the data is being distorted by a single event. This is why black swans and extreme events are removed from data sets. Looking at the same 20 year period and removing the single "black swan" event, we have an average of 25 deaths per year which would be a more accurate representation of what takes place on any given year during that time frame.

Right....and if we were determining the average deaths, that would be a good point.

We're determining which group is more dangerous.

Risk is best determined by the number of events since this measures how likely it will be that you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. In both of the examples, there would have been 50 and 49 events counted respectively. While it may be true that around 90% of the deaths from terrorism on US soil have been at the hands of Islamic extremists, body count doesn't increase or decrease the risk of an individual becoming a victim of a terrorist attack at any certain time or place.

Yes, it does.

Let's say, hypothetically, that radical muslims got ahold of a small nuke and detonated it in a city...killing 3 million initially and 10 million on the fallout.

Then let's say you have 1000 stabbings by right wing extremists over 10 years, at different locations, resulting in 1500 deaths.

Obviously, the 13 million people were in the wrong place at the wrong time....as well as the 1500. The question of who is more dangerous, or who poses the greater risk, can only be determined by loss of life and injury. A group pulling a million ineffectual attacks that kill 1000 people is far less dangerous than a group that pulls one effective attack and kills a million.

The only reason to include it in comparing right wing and Islamic terrorism would be to push an agenda or a false narrative. It would work the same if someone were comparing the risks between left-wing and right-wing extremism. Using the high number of casualties that took place during the Oklahoma city bombing would distort reality in comparing the two.

Again, we aren't looking at "average deaths per year"....we're looking at which of the two is more dangerous. I can quote you on this if you want, but I'm certainly not going to let you change it now.

If you simply want to know which group has been deadlier in the past, then yes, you can count the total number of deaths to come to that conclusion; but it doesn't make one type of extremists any more or less dangerous than the other, nor does it increase or decrease the chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and becoming a victim in the future.

Of course it does. Our concern isn't "will I bump into one of these people on the street?"

Our concern is "will these people kill me?"


That one should have been included in my list. I reviewed over 300 incidents and it was an over site on my part.

It happens....I'm not worried about it. I'm not going to insist that 9/11 be considered either....I'm fine with the time space you selected because the result is the same regardless.

I'll go through the rest of your list here today....but fair warning, a lot of them won't meet the 1st criteria you agreed to. After all, being a misogynist or racist isn't something exclusive to being "right wing" and as far as I can tell, being an "incel" just means you're upset about not getting any sex. It's not an ideology....certainly not a right wing ideology.

So I'd expect to see your list looking a bit smaller once I'm done with it.
 
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