Is a 3rd future Temple needed to fulfill Bible prophecy?

[Erik Nelson]

The following comes from Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 5, Chapter 5, Section 8.



8. Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod’s palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere.


Josephus said Fort Antonia was built upon a gigantic rock.


This provides tremendous evidence that the Dome of the Rock is the true location of Fort Antonia.



.

Also, true. But much of the Antonio Fortress was damaged during. The Roman siege and. Recapture of the city. The modern Temple Mount structure. Even if it was the Antonio Fortress. Was not immediately rebuilt? The Romans initial camp. Comprised 3 towers and. A connecting section of wall. On the far western side of the city on the opposite side of the city as both the Antonia. Fortress and Temple Mount.

Perhaps afterwards eventually the Romans rebuilt the Antonio Fortress. Temple Mount structure and. Station, the 10th Legion there.

But ElieAzar Ben Jere, speaking from Masada in 73. Ad was not referring to the Antonio Fortress. Or the Temple Mount structure. He was referring to the. Initial temporary Roman camp at the modern Tower of David near the Jaffa Gate on the far west side of the city.

 

[BABerean2]

But ElieAzar Ben Jere, speaking from Masada in 73. Ad was not referring to the Antonio Fortress. Or the Temple Mount structure. He was referring to the. Initial temporary Roman camp at the modern Tower of David near the Jaffa Gate on the far west side of the city.

How can you be sure that two different authors, Josephus and ElieAsar, were describing the same "camp", or using the word in the same way?

Fort Antonia may not have been large enough to contain all of the Romans who conquered the city in 70 AD, after the battle was won.
Therefore, there may have been more than one "camp" in the area.

.

 

[parousia70]

Problem is God is the one that says there will be a Temple and sacrifices again. I just happen to agree with Him.

No, He does not.
You want to believe He does, seemingly Desperately, and have twisted scriptures in an attempt to support your desire, But God does not "say" there will be renewed Animal sacrifices for the atonement of Sins and acceptance by Him, renewed Physical Circumcision requirements in a re-built Mosaic Temple.

Such is the stuff of PURE FANTASY.

Such is an anathema to the apostles, a falling away from the Grace of Jesus Christ and a Rejection of His Finished work on the Cross.
No Thanks.
I'll stick with Jesus.

 

[parousia70]

You show an utter failure to know what God wants.

I know you do.

Isaiah 56:1-8 and Ezekiel 40-46 are ample proof that there will be another Temple and there will again be offerings and sacrifices in it.

Wrong.
You have it totally backward.
I will never subscribe to this "Backwards Redemption" agenda so many here are pushing.

The Idea that the Glorified Jesus will one day in our future sit on a physical throne in a brick and mortar building in earthly Jerusalem and require Human Beings to be physically circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices directly at His feet for the atonement of their sins and acceptance by Him is utter Hogwash.

How will the Anti-Christ stop the sacrifices? Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:4 They must recommence first!

There is no scripture that teaches the Biblical "antichrist" does any of those things.

 

[Choose Wisely]

No, He does not.
You want to believe He does, seemingly Desperately, and have twisted scriptures in an attempt to support your desire, But God does not "say" there will be renewed Animal sacrifices for the atonement of Sins and acceptance by Him, renewed Physical Circumcision requirements in a re-built Mosaic Temple.

Such is the stuff of PURE FANTASY.

Such is an anathema to the apostles, a falling away from the Grace of Jesus Christ and a Rejection of His Finished work on the Cross.
No Thanks.
I'll stick with Jesus.

It says the sacrifice will be ceased in the midst of the week and the abomination of desolation will be set up in the Temple.
Why is it always the blind that want to tell me what they see?

 

[parousia70]

First off I said likely.......I believe you added the "mark my words". Do you think they just built that altar and burnt something on it and that's going to be the end of it?

And I burnt my English muffin this morning... should I call the prophesy police?

The problem won't be if we don't see construction on the Temple in two years.

Of course it won't... you'll just move your goalposts out another year or two each time your prediction fails.
It's quite convenient actually. I've been watching folks do it here on CF for almost 20 years now.
Futurists do not have to be accountable for what they say. They can be as freewheeling and loose as they want and never have to be held to account.. maybe that's the allure of Futurism... you never have to be right.

The problem will be if there is construction. Then what will the blind man do? I suspect all quiet on the western front.

Last time they tried God had other plans.
If folks are dead set on repeating the lessons already learned from that particular fool's errand, I hope they enjoy it.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I know you do.

Good one. I'm sure he's quaking now.

The Idea that the Glorified Jesus will one day in our future sit on a physical throne in a brick and mortar building in earthly Jerusalem and require Human Beings to be physically circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices directly at His feet for the atonement of their sins and acceptance by Him is utter Hogwash.

I have not seen anyone say this. It appears that you like to put words in peoples mouth and make things up. Try to stick to the facts.

 

[parousia70]

It says the sacrifice will be ceased in the midst of the week and the abomination of desolation will be set up in the Temple.
Why is it always the blind that want to tell me what they see?

All past History.
Why are the futurist Blinders so addictive?

 

[parousia70]

I have not seen anyone say this. It appears that you like to put words in peoples mouth and make things up. Try to stick to the facts.

Do you believe Ezekiel 38-40 is future?

If you do, then that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

You might want to read up.

 

[Choose Wisely]

And I burnt my English muffin this morning... should I call the prophesy police?

I'd say your muffin is fried.

Of course it won't... you'll just move your goalposts out another year or two each time your prediction fails.
It's quite convenient actually.

All I said was likely. And if your understood the significance of building the altar you might understand why I said what I said. I don't need to move any goalposts as I said likely. You on the other hand said hogwash. There is some stupor coming your way.

 

[Choose Wisely]

All past History.
Why are the futurist Blinders so addictive?

Ok educate me. When did the abomination of desolation happen?

 

[parousia70]

Ok educate me.

Hahah yeah right! Thats funny!

If you have not been educated thusfar by me, how is any response of mine now going to teach one who refuses to learn?

When did the abomination of desolation happen?

In the First century, of Course.

 

[parousia70]

I don't need to move any goalposts as I said likely.

Thats right, Adding the word "Likely" (with or without any sober reason to claim it is "likely") automatically affixes Moving goalposts to the prediction in advance.
Bravo!
Way to skirt accountability for your words!

 

[parousia70]

I'd say your muffin is fried.

And how is my fried muffin any less prophetically significant than a handfull of Gentile followers of the Babylonian Talmud Burning a goat or whatever?

 

[claninja]

It would make the statement wrong.

Correct

People are all the time saying that there will be a pre trib or post trib or pre wrath rapture. That does not mean anything other than that's what they think will happen according to what they think the Bible says.

I agree.

Would you agree it would be more appropriate to state generic time frames like soon or near instead of specific time frames like 1 or 2 years?

Did the apostles ever give specific time frames for the coming of the Lord?

Yes there were first fruits 2000 years ago, which guarantees a harvest. Certainly not a shocking matter given what Jesus said.
Matt 15
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Great we agree then? the first fruits of the 12 tribes were from the 1st century.

It means you might want to study the Jewish feasts.

I am aware of the 7 feasts, but I am unaware of which scriptures say that there will be a harvest (rapture/resurrection) of first fruits on Passover, gentiles on Pentecost, and the 12 tribes at the feast of trumpets.

Can you provide scripture for this belief?



Passover
the Passover sacrifice took place on the 14th of Nissan. The Passover is what protected them from the destroyer (10th plague) and ultimately what freed them from bondage in Egypt.

Exodus 12:13 The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt.

Passover is simply the picture, Christ is the reality. Christ is our Passover lamb that set us free

1 Corinthians 5:7 For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to slavery.

Feast of Unleavened Bread
The Israelites were to remove all leaven from their dwelling and eat nothing containing leaven
Exodus 12:20 You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.”

The feast of unleavened bread is simply the picture, Christ removing the unrighteousness from believers is the reality

1 Corinthians 5:8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth

Feast of First Fruits
On the day after the Sabbath the firstfruits of the harvest were to be brought to God.

Leviticus 23:9-11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, 11 and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Christ was the firstfruits of the dead who was raised on the day after the Sabbath, the 3rd day from Passover. The feast of firstfruits is the picture, Christ being raised from the dead is the reality.

1 Corinthians 15:20,23 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ

Feast of Weeks
The Feast of Weeks occurred 50 days after the Passover. This finished out the harvest of the grain. First fruits of the grain harvest were presented to the Lord.

Leviticus 23:15-17 You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. 16 You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your dwelling places two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, and they shall be baked with leaven, as firstfruits to the Lord.


The Feast of weeks (Pentecost) was just a picture, the reality was the pouring out of the spirit on Pentecost which guaranteed the resurrection. The first century church was the first fruits by the sealing of the holy spirit.

Acts 1:3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and beg and to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Interesting to note that the 1st century church was "sealed", just as the 144,000 were "sealed".
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until possession of it.
2 Corinthians 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.d

Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

james 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth,that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Feast of Trumpets
The feast of trumpets was simply to be observed as a memorial with trumpet blasts. Not much information is provided in scripture on the purpose of this feast. Tradition has it that it served to prepare Israel for the day of Atonement.

Leviticus 23:24 In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of solemn rest, a memorial proclaimed with blast of trumpets, a holy convocation

There isn't much to go off of in the NT in regards to the feast of trumpets. The main time that trumpets are mentioned have to do with the coming of the son of man (matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:52), and judgment (revelation 8-9).

Day of Atonement
The day of atonement atoned for sins of the people
Leviticus 16:23 He shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly

This would occur 1 time per year where only Aaron, the high priest, would enter the most holy place to make atonement.
Leviticus 16:2-3 and the Lord said to Moses, “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. But in this way Aaron shall come into the Holy Place

The bodies of atonement sacrifice were then carried outside the camp
Leviticus 16:23 And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp

The day of atonement ant its sacrifices were just the picture, Christ's sacrifice and ascension to the Father into the most holy place as our eternal high priest to intercede and forgive our sins is the reality
Hebrews 13:11-12 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.

Hebrews 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

Feast of Booths
The Israelites were to celebrate this feast by living in temporary booths to remind them of traveling through the wilderness on their way to the promise land. The feast of booths also closed out the harvest of fruits.
Leviticus 23:42-43 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths, that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

The feast of booths was only a picture, the reality is our living in earthly tents, and seeking immortality through Christ, who will bring us safely into the true promise land at the resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:1-5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Romans 2:7 those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;


In revelation there are 2 major harvest represented: the first harvest (spring: grain) represented by the son of man reaping, and the 2nd is the fruit harvest (summer) by the angel which leads to judgment. Again from OT, we can see that the grain harvest was finished with Pentecost and the grape harvest was finished with the feast of booths.

Revelation 14:14-20
14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.c


So again, can you provide scripture to support that there will be a harvest (rapture/resurrection) of first fruits on Passover, gentiles on Pentecost, and the 12 tribes at the feast of trumpet?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Hahah yeah right! Thats funny!

If you have not been educated thusfar by me, how is any response of mine now going to teach one who refuses to learn?

In the First century, of Course.

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I am unaware of any abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Can you clarify?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Thats right, Adding the word "Likely" (with or without any sober reason to claim it is "likely") automatically affixes Moving goalposts to the prediction in advance.
Bravo!
Way to skirt accountability for your words!

I am being fully accountable for what I said. I said it is likely that we will see construction on the temple in the next one or two years. If you understood the significance of the altar, you would understand why.

 

[parousia70]

If you understood the significance of the altar, you would understand why.

Educate me.
What is the Biblical Significance of an Altar where gentiles fry up a goat once in a while?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Hahah yeah right! Thats funny!

If you have not been educated thusfar by me, how is any response of mine now going to teach one who refuses to learn?

I don't refuse to learn, but you have to have something of substance before I can take notice. They say even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. Sooner or later you might accidentally stumble across something of value and present it before your muffin can pollute it.

 

[parousia70]

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I am unaware of any abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Can you clarify?

Sure, but I don't think you'll be able to follow.

The Olivet discourse is the same single speech to the same single audience (the apostles). Anyway, the abomination of desolation took place in the first century, as most good Bible commentaries of the past 2000 years will tell you (only the LaHaye-types teach otherwise).

Here is Matthew Henry on the topic:

1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma ereµmoµseoµs—The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54. Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20), when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16); so an enemy's army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination. Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31; 12:11); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate. Armies of idolaters may well be called abominable armies, the tumults, insurrections, and abominable factions and seditions, in the city and temple, may at least be taken in as part of the abomination making desolate. Christ refers them to that prophecy of Daniel, that they might see how the ruin of their city and temple was spoken of in the Old Testament, which would both confirm his prediction, and take off the odium of it. They might likewise from thence gather the time of it—soon after the cutting off of Messiah the prince; the sin that procured it—their rejecting him, and the certainty of it—it is a desolation determined. As Christ by his precepts confirmed the law, so by his predictions he confirmed the prophecies of the Old Testament, and it will be of good use to compare both together.

Reference being here had to a prophecy, which is commonly dark and obscure, Christ inserts this memorandum, "Whoso readeth, let him understand; whoso readeth the prophecy of Daniel, let him understand that it is to have its accomplishment now shortly in the desolations of Jerusalem."

Aside from the fact that assigning the abomination of desolation to the years AD 67-70 is a common Christian view held by some of the best-known teachers down the centuries (St. Augustine , St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Eusebius, St. Jerome, St Augustine, St. Chrysostom, John Calvin, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, Scott Hahn, F.F. Bruce, among countless others), a simple comparison of these two passages in the gospels shows us that St. Luke himself assigns the abomination of desolation to the time when the Romans sacked the city of Jerusalem:


--COMPARE THIS PASSAGE--

Matthew 24:15-21

"When you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!...For then there will be a great tribulation"


--TO THIS PARALLEL PASSAGE IN LUKE--


Luke 21:20-23

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people"

St. Luke himself shows us that the period in view in Christ's discourse is the destruction of Jerusalem when the desolation of the city took place at the hands of the Romans -- i.e., AD 67-70. The time of the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet is simultaneous with the time when the Jerusalem church saw the city surrounded by armies just prior to its desolation at the hands of the gentile Roman armies.

Matthew 24:15-20 and Luke 21:20-23 were marvelously fulfilled in real history, proving the prophetic powers of Jesus and the apostles in undeniable fashion. No skeptic alive can deny it or get around it.