Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[redleghunter]

Paul speaks against attempting justification by "works of the Law". Faith apart from the Law does not mean faith alone, unless your definition of faith means doing the works which Jesus called believers to follow.

In Ephesians 2 Paul does not mention the Law in verses 8-9. He says works. Makes sense because he was speaking to a Gentile audience. The Law would mean nothing to them as they were previously pagans.

However you seem to think there are some laws which apply to Justification by faith and some don’t. Romans 3 seems to be a good chapter to take a look at.

 

[redleghunter]

Assurance of Salvation? | Catholic Answers

There is no assurance of salvation if we believe our works save us or keep us in anyway.

 

[redleghunter]

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- James 2:20-24

edit: had to change to NIV because the translations sounds more appropriate. sadly, i know that no matter how straight-forward this verse is, there will still be creative writing trying to change it's context.

Now that you established a pretext which creates a contradiction let’s see your exegesis.

 

[redleghunter]

And Abraham's works to receive God's promise weren't accomplished until he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac.

Genesis 22
12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing * to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because * you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore *; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because * you have obeyed My voice."

Abraham was granted righteousness through believing but there was still works to do. None of which could have been accomplished without God's Spirit to lead him.

He received the Promise in chapter 15 and believed God.

Genesis 15: NASB
1After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying,
“Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”

2Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”3And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.” 4Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.” 5And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7And He said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.” 8He said, “O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?” 9So He said to him, “Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. 11The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. (NASB)

Paul goes to painful detail pointing this out in Romans 4.

Romans 4 NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

The OP is not about eternal security, but is about "faith and works." Why are you so obsessed with disproving eternal security? Greek scholar AT Robertson makes a valid point in regards to branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit in John 15:

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

*I noticed in John 15:2 that Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Your insinuating that branches that are attached to the vine who are “in Christ” are merely cosmetic. But Jesus is talking only to His faithful 11 apostles. You are completely disregarding what is clearly written. Jesus is not talking to them about someone else. He is warning them. Look at the statements. My goodness your going to ignore this scripture? What’s more important being right or teaching the truth?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did that branch abide in Christ? No.

I completely agree. Was that branch attached to the vine? Yes. Was that branch “in Christ”? Yes

 

[Cis.jd]

Now that you established a pretext which creates a contradiction let’s see your exegesis.

ah.. so you're about interpretation, not evidence.

ok, i'll try to make a good exegesis on James for you with help from the commentary of top level christian leaders such as Robert Tilton and Jimmy Swaggart.

 

[ripple the car]

There is no assurance of salvation if we believe our works save us or keep us in anyway.

Well, honestly, the first 1,500 years of Christian theology, Scriptural interpretation, liturgy, and thought was that our salvation was something that we had to walk out faithfully until the end to be assured of. Later theologians like Calvin would represent a complete rupture in Christian thinking from that unquestioned, universally agreed upon definition of what being saved meant, and how God saves us.

 

[Danthemailman]

Your insinuating that branches that are attached to the vine who are “in Christ” are merely cosmetic. But Jesus is talking only to His faithful 11 apostles. You are completely disregarding what is clearly written. Jesus is not talking to them about someone else. He is warning them. Look at the statements. My goodness your going to ignore this scripture? What’s more important being right or teaching the truth?

The branches that bear fruit and abide/remain represent believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not abide/remain represent unbelievers (like Judas Iscariot). So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established. Christ was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

It's certainly a warning for those, who like Judas Iscariot, do not have a spiritual, vital connection with the vine. Was there anything mentioned in the Bible about any of the 11 remaining disciples bearing no fruit and failing to abide in the vine and ended up getting cut off? I didn't think so.

 

[redleghunter]

I completely agree. Was that branch attached to the vine? Yes. Was that branch “in Christ”? Yes

But we agree it was not abiding. Judas attached himself to Christ and His ministry. But never believed Him.

 

[redleghunter]

ah.. so you're about interpretation, not evidence.

ok, i'll try to make a good exegesis on James for you with help from the commentary of top level christian leaders such as Robert Tilton and Jimmy Swaggart.

I don’t even know what this means.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, honestly, the first 1,500 years of Christian theology, Scriptural interpretation, liturgy, and thought was that our salvation was something that we had to walk out faithfully until the end to be assured of.

Living holy lives for Him has not changed.

Later theologians like Calvin would represent a complete rupture in Christian thinking from that unquestioned, universally agreed upon definition of what being saved meant, and how God saves us.

Yes the Medieval church forgot we are Justified by faith.

 

[redleghunter]

Was there anything mentioned in the Bible about any of the 11 remaining disciples bearing no fruit and failing to abide in the vine and ended up getting cut off? I didn't think so.

In fact most just quote John 15:1-10.

This is the rest of the story:

John 15: NASB
11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another. (NASB)

Notice verse 11. What Jesus told them is a comfort.

Notice verse 16. Jesus chose them and that they would have fruit and it would remain. Just hours before all of them would abandon Christ in the Garden. And Peter would deny Him three times.

Yet they were not removed nor thrown in the fire. Only Judas who betrayed Christ.

 

[ripple the car]

Living holy lives for Him has not changed.

Yes the Medieval church forgot we are Justified by faith.

We can always and should always live holy lives for Him, true. And though we are certainly justified by faith, it takes more than faith to justify us before God. We must also have works, bourne of love, humility, and obedience; we must follow Christ, too.

 

[Danthemailman]

But we agree it was not abiding. Judas attached himself to Christ and His ministry. But never believed Him.

Amen! Judas did not truly believe in His name and become a child of God (John 1:12) but instead, was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[Cis.jd]

I don’t even know what this means.

what it means is that arguing with you is pointless. You've banned evidence and reason in this debate just so nothing interferes with your desire of a battle of who can articulate their thoughts/interpretations better. Debates should be more about intelligence than creative writing and that is the only thing that is being done by you - creative writing.

 

[redleghunter]

what it means is that arguing with you is pointless. You've banned evidence and reason in this debate just so nothing interferes with your desire of a battle of who can articulate their thoughts/interpretations better. Debates should be more about intelligence than creative writing and that is the only thing that is being done by you - creative writing.

What the Nazi and Hitler was a believer “evidence?”

 

[BNR32FAN]

The branches that bear fruit and abide/remain represent believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not abide/remain represent unbelievers (like Judas Iscariot). So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established. Christ was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

It's certainly a warning for those, who like Judas Iscariot, do not have a spiritual, vital connection with the vine. Was there anything mentioned in the Bible about any of the 11 remaining disciples bearing no fruit and failing to abide in the vine and ended up getting cut off? I didn't think so.

But Judas is not here. Why would Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles about doing something that, according to the doctrine of eternal security, is impossible? That would be a useless message to warn them of doing something they can’t possibly do. Wouldn’t it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

But we agree it was not abiding. Judas attached himself to Christ and His ministry. But never believed Him.

But Judas is not here. Why would Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles about doing something that, according to the doctrine of eternal security, is impossible? That would be a useless message to warn them of doing something they can’t possibly do. Wouldn’t it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The branches that bear fruit and abide/remain represent believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not abide/remain represent unbelievers (like Judas Iscariot). So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established. Christ was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

It's certainly a warning for those, who like Judas Iscariot, do not have a spiritual, vital connection with the vine. Was there anything mentioned in the Bible about any of the 11 remaining disciples bearing no fruit and failing to abide in the vine and ended up getting cut off? I didn't think so.

The problem is Jesus said these branches are in Him and you say they weren’t really in Him.