Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

redleghunter

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Counterfeit loved by unrighteous people
Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
 
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Cis.jd

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God is incompetent? I wouldn’t say that. Also the word “justified” in James 2:21 means shown to be right with God not made right with God. The word justified means both but in this case it can’t mean made right with God because we are not made right with God but works and this definition would be a direct contradiction of Romans 4:1-4
He's not incompetent but the Faith alone doctrine gives that impression.

You are right about James 2:21, and it doesn't contradict Romans 4. If those two were at odds than not only does it show that James contradicts Paul but Paul contradicts himself (Romans 2:6-8). Therefore to understand Romans 4, we have to read the entire letter of Romans. Paul was writing to a church in Rome struggling with the "Judaizers" who were heretics that taught that both faith in christ and obedience to the new law wasn't enough (Rom 2:28 is about this heretical sect). That is why we have exclusive chapters about faith (Rom 4) and another set of verses about works (Rom 2). He is explaining both in depth.
 
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redleghunter

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He's not incompetent but the Faith alone doctrine gives that impression.

You are right about James 2:21, and it doesn't contradict Romans 4. If those two were at odds than not only does it show that James contradicts Paul but Paul contradicts himself (Romans 2:6-8). Therefore to understand Romans 4, we have to read the entire letter of Romans. Paul was writing to a church in Rome struggling with the "Judaizers" who were heretics that taught that both faith in christ and obedience to the new law wasn't enough (Rom 2:28 is about this heretical sect). That is why we have exclusive chapters about faith (Rom 4) and another set of verses about works (Rom 2). He is explaining both in depth.
Yet you created that pretext and thus the self made contradiction. Berean saw it too.
 
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Cis.jd

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Yet you created that pretext and thus the self made contradiction. Berean saw it too.
nope, just showing you what faith alone is it's an illogical doctrine that unintentionally makes god look incompetent.
 
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Varangian Christian

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We persevere to the end by keeping our eye on the prize.

Does an athlete win a race simply by looking at the finish line? No. He must run to reach that line, just as we must work to persevere unto salvation.

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Paul taught the necessity of works and was himself unsure of his ultimate salvation, yet this did not contradict his teaching of grace. Grace and works are not opposed but are complimentary and synergistic. To deny this would make you anathema in the eyes of the Apostles.

The very quotes from you and Chrysostom are traits of those who persevere. The evidence of the new creation. If they are absent then one is exhorted to examine themselves to see if they are actually in Christ.

Is my breathing an evidence that I am alive? Yes. Is it not also a necessity that I breath to be alive? Absolutely. As breath is both a sign and necessity of life so to are works signs and necessary for ultimate Salvation. There is no contradiction, no mutual exclusion, only synergy.

Your position puts the works of God wrought in us His new creation as requirements. We can’t take credit for them. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

Yet you still claim works of righteousness are required for salvation.
How can they be as we can do nothing righteous without God.

You have your mind locked in a rationalistic contradictory mindset. Let me give you another analogy.

Let us compare our salvation to our physical life. Just as salvation is given by God's grace so to our life is given by God and can only be taken away by Him, for the Scripture says "for in him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28)." We did not merit our birth and the breath of life poured into us, just as we do not merit our initial conversion and rebirth, as I am sure you agree. However, it absolutely cannot be denied that we live by our works. We must breath the breath into our lungs to keep the breath of life within us, else we suffocate. We must eat and drink to fuel our bodies and grow strong, else we starve and die. We must exercise our bodies so that we do not become unhealthy and die from the damage done to our bodies by our negligence. All these are works necessary for our survival and it cannot be denied that we ourselves do them, yet it also is true that our life is given and sustained by God. Our physical life is synergistic.

The exact same is true of our Salvation. Just as we must accept oxygen into our lungs we must accept the Spirit of God into ourselves and must do so continuously lest we become hard hearted and apostate, as the Scripture says "and in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them (Matthew 13:14-15)." Just as we must eat, drink and take medicine to sustain our bodies so to must we partake of the Holy Sacraments as our spiritual rejuvenation and medicine for as our Lord said "verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (John 6:53)." Just as we must exercise our bodies lest we become unhealthy and die so to must we pray do good works, for as Saint James says "for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)." All these are necessary in the lifelong process of salvation, but that does not diminish God's grace in any way.

You are locked in a false dichotomy rooted in the subconscious of schismatics for 500+ years. Do not look at salvation like it is a legal document, look at it as healing and perfection, look at it as life. This is the truth of the Apostles, Fathers and the Church. This is the Gospel of Christ.

Now, please respond to the above analogy. Furthermore, explain how your own view of salvation can be analogized using life. If your argument cannot be transferred over to the analogy of life, as putting to much emphasis on either God or man in the process of our physical life is evidently and Scripturally wrong, then I think you must concede the point.

Again I am pointing out a more concrete and sobering truth. We either are in Christ or we are not. What we do shows what we believe in or Who we believe in.

Again, you are operating under a false dichotomy. Storm clouds are a sign of rain and are also necessary for rain.

Those who endure to the end indeed do so because they are in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Ephesians 1:11-14).

And to persevere unto the end they must live according to the will of God by doing good works. There is no contradiction.

Don’t know how those words could be so twisted. It is in fact God giving us a new heart removing the heart of stone. How can we exercise saving faith without the new heart?

Do we choose of our own free will to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior or not? God does not renew us if we do not ask for it.

There is that necessary word negating Grace.

Does my acknowledging the necessity of eating to stay alive negate my life? No, it appears I am still alive despite acknowledging that works are necessary to sustain me.

I do not understand how you can hold such a completely incoherent view. If you believe works are not necessary for maintaining ones salvation then how can you claim any action of mine, including my affirmation of the necessity of works, could impact my salvation in any way? By your own definition you are taking away from God's grace by implying one must intellectually believe a certain way, which is a work. If faith is tied up in ones intellectual knowledge and affirmations then it is a work, a faculty of the physical mind.

You have it backwards. The church is to uphold Apostolic teachings not create it.

1Timothy 3: NASB
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
(NASB )

Pillars uphold. Supports butress. They don’t create. They defend. So it is not the Scriptures which need to conform to the Church but the church to uphold the truth.

The Apostles were the first Bishops of the Church. The Holy Spirit fills and gives authority to the Church. The New Testament canon was decided by the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity was decided by the Church. It is only in the Church that Scripture can be properly understood, otherwise you are committing the grave sin of private interpretation.

Here is a link to a debate regarding Tradition vs Sola Scriptura. Watch it for your edification:

For a long time I too took Sola Scriptura as truth for granted, but after some research and thought It became readily apparent how ridiculous it is. Words do not interpret themselves! Sola Scriptura was not believed by Christ, His Apostles or anyone in the Church.
 
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redleghunter

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nope, just showing you what faith alone is it's an illogical doctrine that unintentionally makes god look incompetent.
A bold but unsubstantiated statement.

Romans 5: NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
 
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redleghunter

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Does an athlete win a race simply by looking at the finish line? No. He must run to reach that line, just as we must work to persevere unto salvation.

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Paul taught the necessity of works and was himself unsure of his ultimate salvation, yet this did not contradict his teaching of grace. Grace and works are not opposed but are complimentary and synergistic. To deny this would make you anathema in the eyes of the Apostles.



Is my breathing an evidence that I am alive? Yes. Is it not also a necessity that I breath to be alive? Absolutely. As breath is both a sign and necessity of life so to are works signs and necessary for ultimate Salvation. There is no contradiction, no mutual exclusion, only synergy.



You have your mind locked in a rationalistic contradictory mindset. Let me give you another analogy.

Let us compare our salvation to our physical life. Just as salvation is given by God's grace so to our life is given by God and can only be taken away by Him, for the Scripture says "for in him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28)." We did not merit our birth and the breath of life poured into us, just as we do not merit our initial conversion and rebirth, as I am sure you agree. However, it absolutely cannot be denied that we live by our works. We must breath the breath into our lungs to keep the breath of life within us, else we suffocate. We must eat and drink to fuel our bodies and grow strong, else we starve and die. We must exercise our bodies so that we do not become unhealthy and die from the damage done to our bodies by our negligence. All these are works necessary for our survival and it cannot be denied that we ourselves do them, yet it also is true that our life is given and sustained by God. Our physical life is synergistic.

The exact same is true of our Salvation. Just as we must accept oxygen into our lungs we must accept the Spirit of God into ourselves and must do so continuously lest we become hard hearted and apostate, as the Scripture says "and in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them (Matthew 13:14-15)." Just as we must eat, drink and take medicine to sustain our bodies so to must we partake of the Holy Sacraments as our spiritual rejuvenation and medicine for as our Lord said "verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (John 6:53)." Just as we must exercise our bodies lest we become unhealthy and die so to must we pray do good works, for as Saint James says "for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)." All these are necessary in the lifelong process of salvation, but that does not diminish God's grace in any way.

You are locked in a false dichotomy rooted in the subconscious of schismatics for 500+ years. Do not look at salvation like it is a legal document, look at it as healing and perfection, look at it as life. This is the truth of the Apostles, Fathers and the Church. This is the Gospel of Christ.

Now, please respond to the above analogy. Furthermore, explain how your own view of salvation can be analogized using life. If your argument cannot be transferred over to the analogy of life, as putting to much emphasis on either God or man in the process of our physical life is evidently and Scripturally wrong, then I think you must concede the point.



Again, you are operating under a false dichotomy. Storm clouds are a sign of rain and are also necessary for rain.



And to persevere unto the end they must live according to the will of God by doing good works. There is no contradiction.



Do we choose of our own free will to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior or not? God does not renew us if we do not ask for it.



Does my acknowledging the necessity of eating to stay alive negate my life? No, it appears I am still alive despite acknowledging that works are necessary to sustain me.

I do not understand how you can hold such a completely incoherent view. If you believe works are not necessary for maintaining ones salvation then how can you claim any action of mine, including my affirmation of the necessity of works, could impact my salvation in any way? By your own definition you are taking away from God's grace by implying one must intellectually believe a certain way, which is a work. If faith is tied up in ones intellectual knowledge and affirmations then it is a work, a faculty of the physical mind.



The Apostles were the first Bishops of the Church. The Holy Spirit fills and gives authority to the Church. The New Testament canon was decided by the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity was decided by the Church. It is only in the Church that Scripture can be properly understood, otherwise you are committing the grave sin of private interpretation.

Here is a link to a debate regarding Tradition vs Sola Scriptura. Watch it for your edification:

For a long time I too took Sola Scriptura as truth for granted, but after some research and thought It became readily apparent how ridiculous it is. Words do not interpret themselves! Sola Scriptura was not believed by Christ, His Apostles or anyone in the Church.
Sola Scriptura is ridiculous because you believe internet fables.

Here’s some insight:

Of course, like many core Christian convictions, the doctrine of sola Scriptura has often been misunderstood and misapplied. Unfortunately, some have used sola Scriptura as a justification for a “me, God, and the Bible” type of individualism, where the church bears no real authority and the history of the church is not considered when interpreting and applying Scripture. Thus, many churches today are almost ahistorical—cut off entirely from the rich traditions, creeds, and confessions of the church. They misunderstand sola Scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola Scripturait is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual.

The Reformers would not have recognized such a distortion as their doctrine of sola Scriptura. On the contrary, they were quite keen to rely on the church fathers, church councils, and the creeds and confessions of the church. Such historical rootedness was viewed not only as a means for maintaining orthodoxy but also as a means for maintaining humility. Contrary to popular perceptions, the Reformers did not view themselves as coming up with something new. Rather, they understood themselves to be recovering something very old—something that the church had originally believed but later twisted and distorted. The Reformers were not innovators but were excavators.

There are other extremes against which the doctrine of sola Scriptura protects us. While we certainly want to avoid the individualistic and ahistorical posture of many churches today, sola Scriptura also protects us from overcorrecting and raising creeds and confessions or other human documents (or ideas) to the level of Scripture. We must always be on guard against making the same mistake as Rome and embracing what we might call “traditionalism,” which attempts to bind the consciences of Christians in areas that the Bible does not. In this sense, sola Scriptura is a guardian of Christian liberty. But the biggest danger we face when it comes to sola Scriptura is not misunderstanding it. The biggest danger is forgetting it. We are prone to think of this doctrine purely in terms of sixteenth-century debates—just a vestige of the age-old Catholic-Protestant battles and irrelevant for the modern day. But the Protestant church in the modern day needs this doctrine now more than ever. The lessons of the Reformation have been largely forgotten, and the church, once again, has begun to rely on ultimate authorities outside of Scripture.

Understanding Sola Scriptura
 
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Cis.jd

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A bold but unsubstantiated statement.
That fact that you still ignored logic assessments and questions as shown in post 326 shows that your views are irrational. You can't defend it other than flexing your interpretations on verses. This is not an academical debate but creative writing.
 
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redleghunter

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The Apostles were the first Bishops of the Church.
No they were not bishops. They were Apostles.
The Holy Spirit fills and gives authority to the Church.
How does this happen when the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit given to individuals who make up the church the Body of Christ.
The New Testament canon was decided by the Church.
Really. So the church made the NT authoritative?

The doctrine of the Trinity was decided by the Church.
The Trinity is eternal. The Church derived the doctrine from Scriptures not divine revelation. But that was a good try.

It is only in the Church that Scripture can be properly understood
Then where is the infallible church interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Don’t look too hard there is not one.
otherwise you are committing the grave sin of private interpretation.
Then exit CF you are doing what your church says is wrong.
Plus which infallible church? Rome? EO? Like Highlander there can only be one!
 
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Varangian Christian

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Sola Scriptura is ridiculous because you believe internet fables.

I understand Sola Scriptura perfectly. I have been a Protestant for the vast majority of my life and prided myself on studying the Scriptures. I don't think it is ridiculous because I am uneducated, quite the opposite, it is because i have a knowledge of Church history, how the canon came to be and have studied the Scriptures that I know Sola Scriptura is utter bunk.

Listen to the debate i linked you before responding on this issue. I am tired of responding to low quality posts.
 
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redleghunter

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That fact that you still ignored logic assessments and questions as shown in post 326 shows that your views are irrational. You can't defend it other than flexing your interpretations on verses. This is not an academical debate but creative writing.
Are we back to the logical fallacies of Hitler again?
 
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redleghunter

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I understand Sola Scriptura perfectly. I have been a Protestant for the vast majority of my life and prided myself on studying the Scriptures. I don't think it is ridiculous because I am uneducated, quite the opposite, it is because i have a knowledge of Church history, how the canon came to be and have studied the Scriptures that I know Sola Scriptura is utter bunk.

Listen to the debate i linked you before responding on this issue. I am tired of responding to low quality posts.
Sorry do your own arguing and stop dropping those stinker YouTube nonsense.

You have listed grievances and assertions and then tell me to watch a video. And a sprinkling of insults. Some have been mildly amusing.

When you have a written rebuttal of the cornucopia of assertions and grievances let me know. It just may be cathartic.

God Bless!
 
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redleghunter

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That fact that you still ignored logic assessments and questions as shown in post 326 shows that your views are irrational. You can't defend it other than flexing your interpretations on verses. This is not an academical debate but creative writing.
I went back to it

James 2:20-24 is evidence, it even begins telling you it is evidence. However, you being a creative writer you either ignore them or instert whatever bizarre context you can think of, just like what you've been doing with BNR32FAN's references -- no matter how many times he has tried to simplify it.

The Nazi, referencing of Pastor/Priest scandals, the world population stats are all in the real life evidence to show you how illogical Justified by Faith Alone is because how can you disprove Adolf Eichmann as a christian; or determine who is a "truer" christian between you and Gilbert Deya?.. it also forces you to admit that God is incompetent because 90+% of his creation (in this current time alone) is going to hell.
Still not seeing any logic or an argument. I see one false premise which is that the Nazis and scandals have anything to do with Justified by faith. The logical fallacy is you think this is logical.

Recommend a good study on Romans before you keep exposing you have not read the epistle.
 
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Cis.jd

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I went back to it


Still not seeing any logic or an argument. I see one false premise which is that the Nazis and scandals have anything to do with Justified by faith. The logical fallacy is you think this is logical.

Recommend a good study on Romans before you keep exposing you have not read the epistle.

Great cop out, answering with plain dismissive statements. Good job on going "nah!" in different ways on every post that you couldn't answer. Next time you make a thread, please don't give it the rules of a book club in where only interpretations are demanded while facts and reason are ignored.
 
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redleghunter

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Great cop out, answering with plain dismissive statements. Good job on going "nah!" in different ways on every post that you couldn't answer. Next time you make a thread, please don't give it the rules of a book club in where only interpretations are demanded while facts and reason are ignored.
No there’s something more of a serious disconnect. You are asking me to admire the carpeting when there is no carpeting but wood floors.
 
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Varangian Christian

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No they were not bishops. They were Apostles.

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How does this happen when the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit given to individuals who make up the church the Body of Christ.

Because not everyone are given the same gifts of the Spirit and no single person is the Church unto themselves. Shocking isn't it? The matter of how much of the law Gentile Christians were to follow was not decided by each individual and there Torah (which is all they had), it was decided by a council of the Church directed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:1-31).

Really. So the church made the NT authoritative?

Yes. For 300+ years there wasnt even an official canon. The average person led by the Holy Spirit thought the Shepherd of Hermas was equal to the books you have in your New Testament. It was the Church who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, eventually decided upon the canon.

You are clearly historically illiterate. I hope you research the true history of the Church and are lead to join the true Body of Christ, as I have been.

The Trinity is eternal. The Church derived the doctrine from Scriptures not divine revelation. But that was a good try.

The Church in council, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, dogmatized the correct interpretation of Scripture being God as Trinity. If the Church had operated under the idiotic idea of Sola Scriptura then Arians would have continued to be the dominant majority.

You cannot say that the Trinity is understood by simply reading Scripture as even today people who claim to be "saved" do not believe it, such as oneness Pentecostals. The Trinity is TRADITION.

Then where is the infallible church interpretation of Holy Scriptures? Don’t look too hard there is not one.

Infallible is a word Orthodox do not really use. I believe that God preserves the truth within His Church though at times they may err on certain issues non-essential to Salvation. The Scriptures clearly teach this (Church is pillar and ground of the truth, therefore the truth is grounded in the Church) and history confirms this.

Under Sola Scriptura you have no true standard except your own human understanding, aka, your entire faith is subjective. This is not what God desires as God is not a God of confusion. Furthermore, Paul rebukes those who think they can go outside the Church in schisms even if they claim they are led by God:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" - 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

You, with your Sola's and your denominations named after men, have turned on the body of Christ. You will find no support for schismatic faith in Scripture and history bears witness to its folly. You are living in rejection of God's command to unity in His Church. Beware lest the gates of hell prevail against you.

Then exit CF you are doing what your church says is wrong.
Plus which infallible church? Rome? EO? Like Highlander there can only be one!

I am not privately interpreting and if I do err in my understanding and find out I am wrong i will submit to the understanding of the Church. Your flippant statements and substance less arguments are insulting and only show your ignorance. It has never been wrong to debate the Scripture, it is only wrong if one purposely goes against the Church.

Do you seriously think this is a difficult question? It rises to the level of an atheist saying "well you cant know which religion is right hurr durr". I believe the true Church is the Orthodox and I have historical/doctrinal reasons to believe so, but ultimately I have faith, just as you have faith in the Scriptures.

Sorry do your own arguing and stop dropping those stinker YouTube nonsense.

Fine, continue to be historically and logically illiterate.

Which one again. The Orthodox were the first Protestants. You rebelled from your Pope in Rome.

Finally you show a spark of intellect! Alas, all too late. If you had sought to divide and conquer your opponents in this debate you should have done so much earlier in the discussion.

I have faith in the Orthodox Church along with what I have confirmed from studying Church History. I do not believe the Orthodox are schismatics but that all other Churches schism-ed away from them. That said, I will not be arguing with any Catholics or other followers of claimed Apostolic churches in this thread.

(Also, by claiming Orthodox are schismatics you are also claiming Rome is the legitimate Church. I do not think that is your intention, but that is the result).
 
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Varangian Christian

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@redleghunter You have debated in a completely dishonest manner. In these last responses you have completely dodged my arguments regarding works in salvation and have tried to derail the thread into other debates regarding Sola Scriptura and the Church. We are to emulate Christ, not the serpent, so let your yea be yea and nay be nay and debate honestly, starting with addressing my analogy:

"Let us compare our salvation to our physical life. Just as salvation is given by God's grace so to our life is given by God and can only be taken away by Him, for the Scripture says "for in him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28)." We did not merit our birth and the breath of life poured into us, just as we do not merit our initial conversion and rebirth, as I am sure you agree. However, it absolutely cannot be denied that we live by our works. We must breath the breath into our lungs to keep the breath of life within us, else we suffocate. We must eat and drink to fuel our bodies and grow strong, else we starve and die. We must exercise our bodies so that we do not become unhealthy and die from the damage done to our bodies by our negligence. All these are works necessary for our survival and it cannot be denied that we ourselves do them, yet it also is true that our life is given and sustained by God. Our physical life is synergistic.

The exact same is true of our Salvation. Just as we must accept oxygen into our lungs we must accept the Spirit of God into ourselves and must do so continuously lest we become hard hearted and apostate, as the Scripture says "and in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them (Matthew 13:14-15)." Just as we must eat, drink and take medicine to sustain our bodies so to must we partake of the Holy Sacraments as our spiritual rejuvenation and medicine for as our Lord said "verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (John 6:53)." Just as we must exercise our bodies lest we become unhealthy and die so to must we pray do good works, for as Saint James says "for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)." All these are necessary in the lifelong process of salvation, but that does not diminish God's grace in any way.

You are locked in a false dichotomy rooted in the subconscious of schismatics for 500+ years. Do not look at salvation like it is a legal document, look at it as healing and perfection, look at it as life. This is the truth of the Apostles, Fathers and the Church. This is the Gospel of Christ."


Address this now or expose yourself and your views as false.
 
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Thomas Cooper

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Sola Fieta was a doctrine mostly invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Because Luther only had a limited knowledge of scripture, he was initially unaware of scripture’s contradictions on the matter.

James 2 (context: St. James is settling disputes here between his fellow Christians who claim superiority and overassume salvation) states:
“My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14, 16-26‬

When Luther was shown this passage by a local bishop, his response was to remove James from the Bible entirely (along with Revelation and others for different reasons).

Other passages are also very clear: While all salvation indeed comes from the grace of God through all-sufficient act of Christ, (see Ephesians 2:8-9 for this) faith alone will not save.

In Matthew 25 (“The Judgement of the Nations”), Christ is very clear that judgment is based on works.

Matthew 7:21-23 is very haunting for most Christians. In it, Christ says:
“Not all who say to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, the same shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform many powerful deeds in your name?' And then will I disclose to them: 'I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

Philippians 2:12 commands us to “work out [our] salvation in fear and trembling.”

Luther tried justifying his argument with passages like Romans 3:27, which at first seems to say faith alone. However, in context, it’s saying that works of the Law don’t justify the Jews, that they must also have faith. The gentiles can also have faith and be saved. In fact, verse 31 goes on to say not to replace works with faith. Another tactic Luther used was actually writing “alone” several places in his personal bible, which temporarily worked because the printing press was not in every home at the time and not everyone at a bible until a little later.

In conclusion, while God’s Grace is what saves us through Christ’s Sacrifice, and while some passages seem to even support Sola Fieta at first glance, good works are still needed to “earn” God’s free gift of salvation. Recall Christ’s parable in Matthew 22, of the Kings’s Banquet. The king sent out many invitations for his son’s wedding feast. Although many had the invitations, and acknowledged the king’s feast, they denied his offer through their lack of action. Remember that Jesus said to strive to enter through the narrow gate. If we die, and everything I just said is somehow wrong, but you also did works, and loved your neighbor through your actions, what harm was done?
 
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